Let's talk about Racism

[MyDoorsAreOpen]

I'd like to hear what 'my doors are open" has to say

Um... OK sure. I always got the sense that Affirmative Action was supposed to be more of a jumpstart than a long-term crutch. It's there to build up a critical mass of nonwhite Americans in areas of achievement and influence, in order to get a trend going in this general direction. It's not so much a handout as much as a helping hand up.

Once the statistics shows that Black Americans are closing the achievement gap, which as I said, I think they eventually will, this program will likely be phased out.

The bottom line on race relations, that I can see, is this:
1. Do your part to make 'the buck stop here'. If someone treats you badly because your ethnic background isn't the same as theirs, show them that you won't let them get you down. Let them know that even if they have a problem with you, you DON'T have a problem with THEM, and you'll be damned if you're going to let their small-minded attitude keep you from getting what you want out of life.
2. Ignore people's ethnic backgrounds and just judge individuals on an individual basis. If someone is not a good person, call them out on it. But conclude that THAT person sucks, not "that's the problem with you people". Because what good does taking that attitude accomplish for either of you?

Blaming other people, or groups of people, for what's wrong with the world, is just an excuse for not getting out and living your life and doing something about the problems that concern you.

If we're talking about xenophobia, rather than racism, then yes, I do think one can legitimately conclude that Culture X has a set of core values that are fundamentally incompatible with one's own principles. That's a whole other can of worms that I don't have the time to get into right now, but again, it becomes a matter of minimizing adversarial encounters and coming to recognize a foreign people's shared humanity with yourself, even if the best show of compassion you can muster is to minimize encounters with them at all.

But black and white Americans are one culture. Having lived in some very different cultures than my own, AND in majority-black areas of the US as a white man, I can say with confidence that any cultural value differences between black and white America are negligible compared to, say, American and Chinese people. In fact, I'd say all people born and raised in America, to at least one parent/guardian who was also born and raised in America, belong to a single culture, regardless of their background any further back.

P.S. People who'll try to exploit you come in all shades and colors. That's life. If you learn how not to put yourself in situations where you're an easy mark, then you won't have heaps of negative experiences from which to make massive judgements about whole races of people.

 

[spaceyourbass]

It seems like the world keeps getting less and less racist. What's the word...moral relativism...basically saying that one's morals depend on the environment he or she grew up in. Either way I'm sick of hearing white dudes say racist shit. Shit they wouldn't dare to say if there was just one person of the other group anywhere in the general proximity. If your gonna be a racist at least have some balls.

 

[moonyham]

That's more than a little extreme. I think the problem is that you don't know enough black people or live in an environment where a person of African descent can thrive.

I have met PLENTY of browns, blacks, asians, arabs.. you name it. Auckland is FULL of immigrants, theres more islanders here than in the islands! Its EXTREMELY multicultural, so no a lack of other race people isnt the problem. People come to this city to live from all over the world, and you know, the main people who are criminals are the brown/black ones. They all come here with relatively the same oppurtunitys and racism is quite low-key/rare here so that isnt the issue. Brown and black people are just genetically less civilized.

 

[Jabberwocky]

^
I don't have your experiences and can not contest your subjective experiences and judgments. I doubt that opportunities are equal between people of different races where you are, but never having been to NZ or read much about NZ, I can only call that a feeling at this point. My experience is that if I adjust for economic situations I don't think brown or black people are anymore likely to be criminal. There are areas of my town where poverty and crime are both more prevalent and if I disliked a certain racial group I could build a huge anecdotal case against any group from those areas.

Alleged genetic inferiority is something that should become far less subjective in years to come, my gut feeling is that it will be largely proven to be utter bullshit, but time will tell.

 

[moonyham]

^
I don't have your experiences and can not contest your subjective experiences and judgments. I doubt that opportunities are equal between people of different races where you are, but never having been to NZ or read much about NZ, I can only call that a feeling at this point. My experience is that if I adjust for economic situations I don't think brown or black people are anymore likely to be criminal. There are areas of my town where poverty and crime are both more prevalent and if I disliked a certain racial group I could build a huge anecdotal case against any group from those areas.

Alleged genetic inferiority is something that should become far less subjective in years to come, my gut feeling is that it will be largely proven to be utter bullshit, but time will tell.

They ARE equal. Infact they are probably more biased towards islanders/maoris as it seems if your brown in this country you get far more benefits.. more subsidies, more treaty payouts, more everything... they just get more money for everything from the government and yet maoris are the worst health/worst everything pretty much, because they spend all there money on crack, alcohol, and cigarettes, instead of clothes and doctors visits for there kids.

Put it this way:

Population that is Maori: 16%
Prison population that is maori: 52%

And note, how almost all countrys with brown/blacks have very high disproportionate amounts of those people in prison? Oh yeah im sure EVERYWHERE blacks are just picked on more... yeah, right

 

[spaceyourbass]

A person is half genetics and half evironment, moonyham. Ya typical closet racist hiding behind the internet.

 

[moonyham]

hey im not racist man. Jeez.. you always feel a need to label anyone different.

 

[Lady Codone]

People like to pretend that we've "come so far" and because it's 2009, things like sexism and racism don't exist, when in reality, they've only changed form.

Racism among individual citizens will likely always exist to some extent and isn't as big a problem as racism among those in positions of power--corporation owners, politicians, law enforcement, the wealthy and elite. Illegal mexican immigrants and middle eastern Muslims are the new Negro in America, while Black men are still targeted and racially profiled by police and make up a gross majority of the prison population due largely to unfair drug laws like the coke vs. crack jail sentencing. Native Americans--once the sole inhabitants of this country--are all but extinct. And Asians in America? Well, let's just say that, statistically, you're more likely to see an alien in a movie/TV show than you are an Asian character. Something isn't right with this picture.

What racists contribute to a person's skin color--things like clothing style, vernacular/accent, music preferences and other means of self-expression--actually have more to do with culture and upbringing than race. The stereotypes like "Black people are loud" and "Asians are smart" may or may not apply to certain people, but when they do, it's easier to attribute them to a person's skin color than to look at WHY a person is the way they are. Nurture outweighs nature when it comes to race and behavior, making it both politically and scientifically incorrect to chalk all differences up to race.

 

[glitterbizkit]

hey im not racist man. Jeez.. you always feel a need to label anyone different.

Yea, spaceyourbass should take his damn stereotyping somewhere else, don't you think?

Well, i went to a mixed race highschool too, about i dunno atleast half of the students were pacific islanders and about a third white and the rest asians and stuff, and all of the stupid classes had disproportionately high amounts of black/brown people, is all im saying.

My main point was that we all came from similar socio-economic backgrounds. It was a private school so it was all middle class families who either had plenty of money to spare or who valued a good education enough to pay the fees. Also, a highly international community where people had a lot of exposure to different cultures. And as an effect of this, the "stupid classes" were just as racially mixed as the "clever classes".

 

[ControlDenied]

A person is half genetics and half evironment, moonyham. Ya typical closet racist hiding behind the internet.

i agree

thats why i often like blacks from africa, or north american blacks with immigrant parents, and get fed up easily with "local blacks" who blame me for slavery even though im jewish and polish, and try to fuck with me because im a skiny white guy lol...but luckily, in canada this is rare

anyway i wrote that just because the topic of africans in diaspora has been on my mind a lot. also because im starting to have a thing for coloured women (glitterbizkit, you ever coming to canada? lol)

otherwise.

yeh.

id say its actually in quarters.
a person is:
1/4 genetics
1/4 environment
1/4 stereotypes/images
1/4 their intent/action upon the environment

 

[ebola?]

*sigh* I tried...

Some of what I'm going to say will prove repetitious, but either I was being opaque or people would rather disregard counter-arguments and make the same ponts repeatedly. . .

Whew, racism is def alive... Blacks in urban places won't even give most whites a chance to seem fair.

In which situations and in which ways? How do blacks tend to express that they are not giving you (and other whites) a chance to treat them fairly? Heh...and "seem fair"? LOL

They are set on some fear that is being passed down.

Well, Blacks continue to face oppression, granted mostly structural and institutional, but still significant prejudicial treatment. I'd be resentful too.

A hypothesis: just as whites often think that racism begins and ends with individual prejudice, perhaps many blacks misperceive/infer that they remain oppressed because of racist views held by whites. It is far easier to identify individual malice than systemic dysfunction/injustice.

The media that feeds off the shit...

Like with the unrealistic frequency of blacks depicted as violent criminals?

.. but there is something us simple folk can understand... lots of this has gotten over my head, it's not so complicated

Life is complicated. Surface appearances mislead.

racism is natural...

Once again:
perhaps in-group/out-group strife is natural. Race as we know it has not always existed. In fact, it's a pretty recent invention.

ebola

 

[ebola?]

I'mma try to address some additional points here. . .

all of the stupid classes had disproportionately high amounts of black/brown people, is all im saying.

I believe this to reflect:
1. the effect of present institutional racial disparities on educational potential and the inclination to use of said potential and
2. racial bias on the part of instructors.

Sam Lucas has done much to document the racism of educational 'tracking' in the US.

Heres a list of things that have influenced me to say these things.

1: Ive only been physically threatened, or had my life threatened, by brown/black people.
2: If i look at the people walking into WINZ for 'FINANCIAL ASSISTANCE' from the government, its disproportionately high in amounts of brown/black people.
3: If you look at prison/crime statistics, the prisons are fulled with disproportionately high amounts of brown/black people.
4: The only people who have ever tried to 'scab' money off me: 'hey bro, got a dolla bro?', are brown/black.
5: All the most uncivilized and dangerous countries are run-by/majority brown/black

And ALL of these points have been addressed in this thread, revealing underlying mechanisms other than the genetically determined failings of black folks.

I think if we just locked all black people up from birth we'd be alot better off

Take a look at our (the US's) prison system! We're doing as close to this as is possible, within our immense but still inadequate budget for prisons. It does fuck-all when poverty remains unaddressed.

I have met PLENTY of browns, blacks, asians, arabs.. you name it. Auckland is FULL of immigrants, theres more islanders here than in the islands! Its EXTREMELY multicultural, so no a lack of other race people isnt the problem. People come to this city to live from all over the world, and you know, the main people who are criminals are the brown/black ones. They all come here with relatively the same oppurtunitys and racism is quite low-key/rare here so that isnt the issue. Brown and black people are just genetically less civilized.

Can you present any evidence showing that you live in a magical land where races exist free of institutional racial disparities?

They ARE equal. Infact they are probably more biased towards islanders/maoris as it seems if your brown in this country you get far more benefits.. more subsidies, more treaty payouts, more everything... they just get more money for everything from the government and yet maoris are the worst health/worst everything pretty much, because they spend all there money on crack, alcohol, and cigarettes, instead of clothes and doctors visits for there kids.

1. I'm still waiting for you to present evidence of this supposed equality.
2. The Maori exemplify the type of degradation caused by colonial invasion and settlement, the natives quarantined when they can't be eliminated, like American Indians in The States. This is institutional racism on a grand scale, as imperial practice.

you sound reasonable, anyway ive been ripped off to many times, it makes me feel like such a bitch i want to hunt them all down lol, but yeh most of the time its whitee people, ut thats because i dont even TRY to buy off black people lol... in europe arabs ALWAYS ripped me off

Do we see a pattern yet? Where there is geographically and racially concentrated poverty, there is also a concentration of (violent) crime. Does it make more sense to blame the race or the social system?

Btw, I'm not pickin on any skin color. Whoever is best for the job, gets the damn job!!

But has it ever operated according to this meritocratic ethic? In the absence of interventions like affirmative action, we mostly have, "whoever is most culturally similar to those in charge of hiring, particularly if he holds the most and closest ties with higher-ups' in their social networks, will get the job," tempered by cursory attention to talent and skills. This ethic is near-ideal for reproducing institutional racism under conditions of race-blindness.

ebola

 

[Kenickie]

the only colour that matters nowadays is green. i think the OJ case is what said it - don't matter what colour you are, if you have the $, you can buy your freedom just as easily as any white dude.

i like that vatos give me the most respect when they hit on me on the street.

reading this whole thread, most of the things said have been said a million times before, a long with all the negative views on "brown/black people", which is the exact same shit they've been fighting against for decades. Native Americans (which aren't brown, they are red) have been fighting even longer.

 

[MyDoorsAreOpen]

Did anyone read the recent Newsweek article "Is Your Baby a Racist?" Very, very interesting. It basically says that 'you've got to be taught to be racist' is not scientifically supported at all. White American parents who keep up the taboo of not discussing race in frank terms to their children, in the hopes that they'll be colorblind, is misguided, as is moving to more diverse places in order to give their kids more exposure.

Essentially, little kids will use any superficial difference -- right down to clothing colors -- to discriminate. They've got to be carefully taught NOT to do this, from an early age. If skin color, facial features, and ancestry are just not topics up for discussion in their homes, they won't learn NOT to use these things as criteria to separate the world into 'us' and 'them'.

My parents were always very frank with me in discussing race, and the history of how black Americans and white Americans got to the places they are today, status-wise. I never learned the dogmatic taboo of not discussing race at all, which many of my fellow liberal white Americans follow. As a result, I've highly offended some people before, to the point of being called racist, just for dispassionately suggesting that there are ethnic differences in the attitudes and preferences of whites and blacks, on the whole, which I see as patently true. You can't solve a problem without first acknowledging it's real, but that it need not remain problematic.

I plan to follow suit with any kids I have. I'll teach them very early on that people who look different from our family indeed have ancestors that come from different places, and have faced distinctly different historical struggles making it in America. I won't shy away from the shameful historical details, and impress into my kids that they're part of the great project of making the future better than the past, when it comes to relations between different ethnic groups.

I'm done finding despair in the distinct possibility that our default hardwiring as a species is to mistrust and shy away from those who don't look or act like ourselves and our family members. It's clear that such base drives can be overridden with the cultivation of the right mindset. After all, drastically changing our interactions with the world through the power of words, concepts, and abstract thinking is truly one of the treasures of being human, and one of the few things that truly separates us from all other living things.

 

[Max Power]

After all, drastically changing our interactions with the world through the power of words, concepts, and abstract thinking is truly one of the treasures of being human, and one of the few things that truly separates us from all other living things.

It's both a gift and a curse.

 

[MyDoorsAreOpen]

^ Granted. It's all in how you use it.

 

[king_d1ngl1ng]

Here's my two cents:

I'm African-American and I grew up in a crappy neighborhood, in a crappy situation. I'm in college now, but I've made a few mistakes. I don't blame it on race or anything like that its all on me. I think its pathetic how many other African Americans use what happened to people they, nor I never met, and have had no association with as a crutch. Yes I've had it harder than others no its not fair, but that's life. If you want something, You'll work for it and obtain it.

Reverse racism is just as wrong as racism. I don't see any problem with Caucasians having pride in what ethnicity they are, If I can be proud to be black, the you should be able to be proud of being white brown or what ever else you are, but it doesn't give you the right to think you're better than someone else. Ignorant people (black panthers, kkk, and plenty others) come in every color.

 

[king_d1ngl1ng]

I have met PLENTY of browns, blacks, asians, arabs.. you name it. Auckland is FULL of immigrants, theres more islanders here than in the islands! Its EXTREMELY multicultural, so no a lack of other race people isnt the problem. People come to this city to live from all over the world, and you know, the main people who are criminals are the brown/black ones. They all come here with relatively the same oppurtunitys and racism is quite low-key/rare here so that isnt the issue. Brown and black people are just genetically less civilized.

That sounds like something you'd read in a newspaper during the 1880's. Are you saying your genetically more civilized than I am because I'm black, and you're white?

 

[jonO_O]

Moonyham : It is socio economic status that determines crime, prison , and welfare statistics, not race. The reason that Maori and Pacific Islanders have such high numbers in jail and on the dole is because they've been systematically ratted out by white europeans over land, jobs and social status.

I do see racism in New Zealand, although many of our people are accepting to different cultures and immigrants. We still see today that European New Zealanders have much greater chances of professional jobs and land ownership. New Zealand is making strides towards equality with emphasis on education. This is evident in areas like Maori Te Reo language schools, scholarships for Maori doctors and lawyers and greater awareness of differences in learning styles between Maori and Pakeha (Europeans).

 

[TruthSpeaker1]

Culture also plays an enormous role in how a person behaves and what his preferences are.