Design your own Antidepressant Pill

[Tone303]

People arent provided with effective treatments that alter their consciousness in such a way that they can feel a reduction of intense suffering and an increase in Well-Being, Functioning and Sociability.

This is a mental exercise of making your own hypothetical formula that would be effective compared to what the mainstream medicine claims is an "antidepressant"


this one is called the 11-100

http://h1.ripway.com/tone/ha.html

The 11-100 Hypothetical Antidepressant Pill by Tone-TARPPS Pharma Concepts

Each Hypothetical Capsule Contains:

Anti-Tolerance Homeopathic Receptor Health Complex:

Naltrexone ... 100 Nanograms (1)
Haloperidol .. 100 Nanograms (2)
Naloxone ..... 100 Micrograms(3)

Anti-Tolerance CCK Inhibitor:

Proglumide ... 100 milligrams

Primary Actives:

Tramadol ..... 100 milligrams
Tianeptine ... 100 milligrams
Fentanyl .... 100 micrograms(4)

Aminos:

L-Methionine . 100 milligrams
Phenylalanine 100 milligrams

Brain Antioxidants:

a-Lipoic Acid 100 milligrams
Silymarin .... 100 milligrams


(1) 1 / 500,000th of typical full antagonist dose
(2) 1 / 10,000th of typical starting dose
(3) Mu Antagonist - Has Low Oral Availability and Rapid Metabolism
(4) Low Dose complimentary to Tramadol and Tianeptine

 

[Ham-milton]

oral fentanyl of 100ug is pointless.

 

[Tone303]

oral fentanyl of 100ug is pointless.

couldnt think of a complement to tramadol that is in 100 units,

how about 10 mg hydrocodone

i guess we'll have to drop the obsession with the 100 units

 

[ziddy]

A good time-release mechanism to ensure steady drug concentration is essential.

 

[Ham-milton]

10mg of hydrocodone is also pretty useless.

well, for me. my wife would love that.

 

[Tone303]

For someone who has high enough 2D6 activity, Tramadol feels different for them (still not so recreational, but acting as antidepressant more so which is what im concerned with here). Also Tramadol widely varies from person to person probably beyond just 2D6 status. For some people, Tramadol is a relatively strong antidepressant when there is no tolerance from repeated use. For other people the Tramadol would have to be replaced with something else, like Pethidine or Oxycodone.

The point is, when theres already starting to exist things that lower tolerance and dependence like ultra low dose antagonist mixed with agonist; and when depression and mental illness symptoms are such a powerful thing; and when relief is so desperately needed after a 55 year history of the category Antidepressant being an on-purpose failure, more things should be allowed to people, but there is nothing i can do about that.

im sure everyone in the world knows intense physical pain well but doesnt know intense mental pain, since everyone has stubbed toes and burned themselves at the very least. The concept of physical pain and its desperate need for treatment is clear where mental is not.

So it doesnt matter, for instance, if 10,000 MDs and PhDs sign a statement claiming "SSRIs and similar available drugs act as antidepressants". It still doesnt change the real-life reality that real life people experience.

There is nothing i can do about this. I dont control intelligence agencies' drug trafficking activity that influences prescription drug policy to negate competition. Im not one of the depression-naive executives at any Rx Drug company that can go to work in the morning and sleep at night and just twist things to an imaginary reality and claim "we have a high success rate but its never 100%, there are new developments in the pipeline for 'treatment-resistant afflictions'" trying to make it look like Ok there is a high success rate and when a certain small percentage of people complain.. oh well thats just treatment resistive. Right, and same thing with lactose tablets.

You can make anything look valid with a hamilton scale and a handful of zombies. Suppose you are an alien whos never been to Earth and dont know it's medicines at all. If you came to Earth and read a few abstracts about SSRIs affect on energy levels and depression, but then read a few other unconventional abstracts on meth or opioids and depression, you could read those and in essence they would be very similar, youd get a similar feel for the drugs and the results. but in real life reality they are very extremely different.

Ever read clinical study abstracts for SSRIs then ones for Tianeptine or Amineptine? in black and white text you cant tell they are totally different drugs where in real life reality its quite different.

Id say you could go on any Depression or Mental Illness message board on the net, and type clearly the clear truth, then be attacked for it, even there, due to psychological programming. So i mean, you could argue with people this point VS the dark programming they would reply, and they wouldnt even think for a second that while they are typing their dark programmed responses, in real life people are still suffering despite whatever they are typing. You cannot express anything benevolent or ethical in any medium without being attacked. So there is nothing i can do about that either.

Anyone else want to design a hypothetical pill for fun while waiting for society and medicine to possibly change someday?

 

[Ham-milton]

Ever read clinical study abstracts for SSRIs then ones for Tianeptine or Amineptine? in black and white text you cant tell they are totally different drugs where in real life reality its quite different.

not sure what you mean, but tianeptine and amineptine aren't SSRIs (or at least that's a minor contribution to their effects)

 

[Tone303]

Right, you look at ones for SSRIs (prozac, celexa, etc), then you read ones for the exact opposite, Reuptake Enhancers (Stablon). as in comparing studies of prozac and paxil to studies of stablon. they will look the same and tell you nothing. so when someone advocates for better depression treatment, one cant really talk about studies to oppose that person, they mean nothing.

Look:

http://www.opioids.com/tramadol/norad-antidep.html

heres an abstract about tramadol as an antidepressant. it looks the same as any abstract on any other antidepressant, such as prozac. it really tells you nothing. yet in real life prozac is garbage and tramadol has real usage, at least for a lot of people. the text abstracts and real life arent the same.

If you look at amineptine depression studies, they are going to look the same as prozac studies, yet in real life, prozac is generally garbage for the whole population almost, and tianeptine has real effects. again the text abstracts and real life arent the same.

If you never heard of or took any of these drugs in your life, you wouldnt be able to tell that amineptine is any different than a dysphoric non-treating SSRI from reading studies.

 

[nabollocks]

Just a note on tramadol. If the primary diagnosis is depression and tramadol is to be administered, it is normally injected. Thus bypassing the 2D6 metabolism.

Only thing I would add to this is possibly a gaba substance.... phenibut, baclofen...

 

[<pyridinyl_30>]

I think tramadol is largely worthless, as are the SSRIs.

Yes, they do *something* but sometimes that is not enough.

 

[Tone303]

Just a note on tramadol. If the primary diagnosis is depression and tramadol is to be administered, it is normally injected. Thus bypassing the 2D6 metabolism.

Only thing I would add to this is possibly a gaba substance.... phenibut, baclofen...

Glutethimide is a sedative that selectively induces CYP2D6, it could be very dependence causing though, and theres no way to reduce that like there now is with opioids.

 

[caizar]

tramadol is to addictive imo here in the uk doctors would only prescribe for short period for pain releive

 

[Tone303]

tramadol is to addictive imo here in the uk doctors would only prescribe for short period for pain releive

well, thats why we need things like tiny doses of naltrexone to keep receptors from being so down-regulated. so that the amount of dependence and tolerance it causes at least goes down some amount. Oxytrex which has oxycodone plus a microgram of naltrexone is in trials now.

So what im saying is, now that we have some ways to lower tolerance and dependence by somewhat fooling the brain into not downregulating mu receptors and upregulating CCK so much, we should now explore this as a treatment of depression, since depression is such intense suffering and in dire need of treatment.


Oh, also, UK doctors and doctors all over the world will freely prescribe other things that cause dependence, like effexor, so part of that is programming and a double standard. E.G. they are literally programmed like software, to freely prescribe dependence causing paxil, effexor, cymbalta but programmed to have an apprehensive feeling about tramadol, even though both cause dependence

 

[ziddy]

Oh, also, UK doctors and doctors all over the world will freely prescribe other things that cause dependence, like effexor, so part of that is programming and a double standard. E.G. they are literally programmed like software, to freely prescribe dependence causing paxil, effexor, cymbalta but programmed to have an apprehensive feeling about tramadol, even though both cause dependence

Drugs with significant abuse liability are scheduled and not indicated for depression. That is not a matter in which any particular clinical practitioner has input.

 

[ebola?]

For an anti-depressent, you need something with effects that won't disappear due to accrued tolerance. Naltrexone, magnesium, dissociatives, etc. appear imperfect at combating tolerance to whatever substance. Thus, looking to known immediate euphoriants for REAL anti-depressants is misguided.

Just speculating, but I think we'll some time see some action surrounding modulation of endorphins, GABA, etc...perhaps through blocked reuptake, perhaps through enzymatic inhibition, etc.

ebola

 

[Tone303]

For an anti-depressent, you need something with effects that won't disappear due to accrued tolerance. Naltrexone, magnesium, dissociatives, etc. appear imperfect at combating tolerance to whatever substance. Thus, looking to known immediate euphoriants for REAL anti-depressants is misguided.

Just speculating, but I think we'll some time see some action surrounding modulation of endorphins, GABA, etc...perhaps through blocked reuptake, perhaps through enzymatic inhibition, etc.

ebola

then, there is going to have to be something that wont disappear due to tolerance, just like deep brain stimulation. nothing else has worked since the 1950s, and will continue to not work, no matter how much literature is written up on it, or how many analogs of it is produced. another unsolvable problem. depression wont be treated until most everyone knows exactly what it is. until then, pure apathy and fraud.

 

[ebola?]

Well, this is put a bit strongly. Some (many?) people respond well to SSRIs in the long term.

ebola

 

[caizar]

yeah but its a small minority imo hate the drug's but do like amisulpride increase in dopamine at just 50mg tab a day an anti-pyschotic but anti deppressant also proper calms you down and will be less mad with the world you tend to just ignore stuff laugh it off on this drug..i recomend it 50mg tho over that and it works differently..!! anyone with more experiance please correct me?

 

[kaskelot]

then, there is going to have to be something that wont disappear due to tolerance, just like deep brain stimulation. nothing else has worked since the 1950s, and will continue to not work, no matter how much literature is written up on it, or how many analogs of it is produced. another unsolvable problem. depression wont be treated until most everyone knows exactly what it is. until then, pure apathy and fraud.

What if... what if depression actually is a complex syndrome constituted by several psychosocial components and a blend of neurotransmittor deficiencies, in different patients having different constitution resulting in variances of the same set of symptoms (apathy, lethargy, emotional distress, et al), due to a limited set of possible psychoneural responses to this syndrome?

How would you determine that, scientifically, and then communicate to "most everyone" so that they can "know[..] exactly what it is"?

Does my proposed view of depression seem far fetched and not so in tune with "real life reality"?

The opioids seem nice, because what they do, is to make you feel content and normal. But, they make you feel normal and content no matter what circumstances, so you'll keep all thought and behavioural negatives of the previous depression (if, someone depressed isn't depressed anymore under the influence of opioids, that is) and have no reason to work psychotherapically or with cognitive behaviour therapy or what not that is supposed to make antidepressive substance use unuseful for the patient in the longer run.

To me opioids (or opiates, really) are all fun and games, they are such a bliss every now and then after the poppies have bloomed.

But they are at least as dependence invoking as SSRI's, it's just that in contrast opioids will still be that way even though the receptor level tolerance is counteracted. Because you learn yourself that the opioid medicine is good for you. You don't learn yourself that it is necessary for a while, no, you'll learn that it makes you feel well. And you'll get a spontaneus response to most tough things based on how well this theoretical medicine helped with depression. 'Hm. Much distress for long time. Medicine fixed it. This distress seems acute. Medicine can fix it.' Trivially put, that is.

I fail to see why you do not propose DRI's, or even my all time favourite, the majestic and fantastical racemic amphetamine mixed up with a bit of sugar, as a pill containing tolerance countering substances. They will not only take away most depressions, they will also cause a momentum in life. You want to do stuff when on them, which is the opposite of how you feel when depressed. 'Neurotoxicity, bla bla, bla...' Yeah, but hey, we're talking small doses, right? People won't take more than prescribed, right?

Anyhow. SSRI's work great in people with depression, most of the time. But they don't work in people who just feel depressed. And the latter shouldn't be treated with drugs.

The latter should be treated with meditation or daily prayers, or some working out, or dietary changes (chelated magnesium, goddammit! fruits and greens 4 life, y'all), or all at once. Designing good life through that kind of hard work that makes it last. No clinically observable depression (PET, MRI, or such, no subjective diagnosis)? No medicine. Visit a priest or therapist.

 

[ebola?]

>>What if... what if depression actually is a complex syndrome constituted by several psychosocial components and a blend of neurotransmittor deficiencies, in different patients having different constitution resulting in variances of the same set of symptoms (apathy, lethargy, emotional distress, et al), due to a limited set of possible psychoneural responses to this syndrome?>>

This is of course true. Depression also probably isn't just neurochemical...it likely has to do with how things are "wired", axon to neuron to axon...we should also look at causes on a psychological and social level.

>>But, they make you feel normal and content no matter what circumstances, so you'll keep all thought and behavioural negatives of the previous depression>>

Not necessarily. Some people get motivated on opioids. Perhaps they could view their issues in a more manageable light and then work on them.

>>I fail to see why you do not propose DRI's>>

These are already pretty common.

>>or even my all time favourite, the majestic and fantastical racemic amphetamine mixed up with a bit of sugar, as a pill containing tolerance countering substances.>>

As of yet, nothing magically eliminates tolerance to AMPs.

>>Anyhow. SSRI's work great in people with depression, most of the time.>>

From the research that I've seen, they work mediocrely.

>>The latter should be treated with meditation or daily prayers, or some working out, or dietary changes (chelated magnesium, goddammit! fruits and greens 4 life, y'all), or all at once.>>

Well, this is good advice for everyone...with certain limitations on the prayer thing.

>>No clinically observable depression (PET, MRI, or such, no subjective diagnosis)? No medicine.>>

This doesn't make sense. As of yet, there's no such test for depression, not that we know enough to determine what such a test should look for. This is also at odds with your beginning statement on how complicated depression probably is.

ebola