Class: The Great EADD Debate

[One Thousand Words]

So very English to still lump people into classes in the 21st Century.

The fact I am at work right now means I consider myself working class but according to that BBC quiz, the fact I go to museum and art galleries and had fresh fig with my salad at dinner last night makes me an elite. Now days you are either Poor, comfortable or rich when it comes to money and it has nothing to do with hereditary in the real world. I know wealthy millionaire land owners who have farms bigger than Wales that you would be hard press to call a toff. By the same token there are plenty of hereditary peers who are worth next to nothing other than their family crest or tartan.

Once upon a time you needed a name to enter certain buildings, now days you simply need to dress appropriately and not chew with your mouth open. Being born into a certain family does come with perks from time time. The ability to make social and career contacts does make a difference but most circles judge you on your deeds not your name.

 

[pinkpapaver]

there is a seriously under under class round here. I've just spent the day at someones place . Why do I do it to my self? someone who sits watching Jezza Kyle and starts saying "Im sure I recognise them" no matter what the accent. oh, and even spoke of going on the show. Jeez, and then looking at one of those shite rap videos filmed in a horrible estate 9Kind of place I live) oooh, I know where that is. any place that looks shit on the tv, she knows it like, all rpoud of herself. I just want to know how come there are so many people like this with no hope or ambition for anything. How does it happen? All makes me feel a bit better about myself.

 

[Allein]

/
Pffft! I fuckin dream of earning 20K p/a. What type of working class yuppie are you fer fucks sake?

Is it really salary that defines such things, I'm not convinced.

In my childhood we had very little money, second hand clothes and toys and very modest holidays etc, I never noticed at the time.

In much later years my father had a better job and new cars and such were no norm, but I was 15-16 by then and left home at 18 to live in a grotty bedsit, no heating and a matress on the floor.

Over 20 years I've worked hard and now earn a good wage, enough to support my wife and 2 kids and be comfortable for what I need, does that make me middle class ?? should I feel bad that I earn what I do ?? none of it was handed to me, I have no university education or even an A level just a good work ethic and a bit of talent.

 

[mydrugbuddy]

No way should you feel bad, you've got there on your own merits and through your own hard work. You should feel proud, if anything.

I also went through the bedsit stage, it was the only way i could afford to rent and put some money aside to get some money together for a deposit on a mortage for the house Ive now payed off and own outright. Houses were so cheap back then, i was extremely lucky to get on the housing ladder when i did. The house trippled in value in around 5 years IIRC. I wouldnt have been able to afford it otherwise, if I'd have left it any longer. That is one of the rare occasions where Lady Fortune was smiling on me.

In hindsight i wish Id bought a second house at that time to rent it out, the bank offered me the money to do so, if I'd been more willing to take the risk. I would have felt a bit stressed and pressured by having a massive debt though, but would be comfortable by now if id done it. I wouldnt even have needed to work and could have lived on the rent alone, though it would be a very low income to live on, £500 a month or something, if id got a job on top id be fucking loaded by now. But i have definately missed that boat and that opportunity for the second house thing.

 

[masaz]

I've never really thought of people in a certain "class" to be honest... I think that sort of thing divides people and don't really like it xxxx

Me either, honestly. I can't classify myself, there's so many variants, and I don't like to do so in any aspect of my life really. I recall that test that tells you what class you are the first time round; my housemate posted it on his FB cos he got like 'upper class' or something and then deleted it after about 20 derogatory comments and my other housemate commenting 'Now do it again without counting Daddy's income because you're a skint, unemployed, adult student living on your own like the rest of us now'. He deleted the entire post.

If you're going on income and you're living on your own and you're unemployed and have no income bar student loans then sorry you're not upper class in an economic sense. Some people just seem to get obsessed about it.

 

[Allein]

Yeah, you aint pigeon holin me, I don't believe the class system exists in thee UK beyond the Public School / funny handshake brigade.

MY mother worked in c=school kitchens and aftre leaving the army my father was a fabricator ( he made the original conveyor belt for the Generation game !). As a young child we have an old van or later a mine with holes in the floor. Most of my clothes were second hand as where my toys. You could have easily classed us as working class I suppose, but I only see these things now, I never gave it a thought at the time.

In my later teens my father landed a better job and we moved to a better semi in the private part of a council estate, the job brough new cars and we had more money for holidays etc, that said I was working at 15 and full time at 16.

I work in technology, not really IT but IMO this work is now much like the mechanics of previous years, I've had some luck breaks and have clearly inherited my father aptitude for engineering, I live in rented for more than 10 years and eventutally brought a house than had been empty for a number of years.

Now I live in a nice house with countryside close by, have 2 kids 2 cars and enough money that I donlt have to check my balance to withdraw cash.

The class system is an anachronism IMO, there is poverty and there those that stand on the bodies of those living in poverty in order to maintain a living standard and wealth fra higher than they need

 

[Shambles]

In my childhood we had very little money, second hand clothes and toys and very modest holidays etc, I never noticed at the time.

Same same. Although I absolutely did notice at the time cos kids can be cruel and being the only kid in school wearing charity shop flares (in the early 80s) kinda made me stand out a bit. That and the dreaded "What did you get for your b'day/Xmess?" discussions where I mostly got magic painting books from the equivalent of Poundland with my "big present" usually being a second-hand board game from the charity shop. Although one year I got an Atari 2600 (second hand but they were still fairly popular back then and I was desparate for one and thusly well-chuffed).

Thing is, we should've been fairly well-off financially. Middle-class all the way (daddy dearest was a council bailiff or, put in more appealing terms, a civil servant) and MamaSham stayed at home. Despite this we lived in utter squalor in a house that had actually been condemned.... I say a house, more like an eternal building site cum municipal dump. No idea what happened to all the money other than daddy dearest spent it on whatever he spent it on. Mostly other women, toys for himself (he was big into electronics) and apparently he was also a speed-freak (although I didn't find out until years later). Occasionally he'd spend a fortune on summat for me and/or me siblings but was always strangely inappropriate. Like I remember he bought me an electric police trike one time (primary school age - four, or five summat like that). Big rechargeable thingy that must've cost a fortune. But I was very rarely allowed to use it. This was a common theme - objects of desire were sometimes provided, but only so they could be withheld and used as punishment

So, by birth, I guess I'd techinically be middle-class but in reality was very much underclass and acutely aware of it. At the time - and for a long time afterwards - I was very bitter about that but, in hindsight, I think it helped form my individual streak cos I kinda had to stick up for myself and the fact that my life and circumstance seemed so different and alien to that of my peers.

BBC Test Result sez...

Result: the class group you most closely match is:

Precariat

This is the poorest and most deprived class group. According to the Great British Class Survey results, lots of people in this group:

Tend to mix socially with people like themselves
Come from a working class background
Rent their home - over 80%

Same as last time I took it. I score very highly on the cultural markers but basically nil on the financial and social ones. I partially agree with the analysis (such as it is) but not really cos I know much of the result (especially the social stuff) is skewed by particular circumstance and would be very different if I was answering at a different time. Financials have always been around or below the 10k mark even when working as I've only ever really worked donkey work, minimum wage (before there was a minimum wage) jobs cos I've only ever worked to fund addictions. I suspect that I'm never gonna get far in the employment world and would have to find some kinda self-employment in order to ever have any level of financial security.

 

[mydrugbuddy]

Thank you both for your high quality thoughtfull contributions. I think it was Knocks idea to create this thread from a random comment i made in another thread. I suspect he had picked up on me having a bit of an issue about the whole British class system thing, and created the opportunity to discuss the issue in more depth.

To define people is to limit them, and it is encouraging to see that so many people are dismissive of the whole thing, and believe its largely irrelevant to anything, both people of a simillar age group to myself, and younger generations of people seem to think this. I cant help being class-conscious, i believe this is largely due largely to my own background, but i cannot blame any failures to get on in life on the class system. If my father and some of my friends hadnt been so obsessive about the whole thing, then i might not have given two hoots about the whole thing. Snobbery does exist whether we like it or not, and is all down to the class system.

 

[ColtDan]

To define people is to limit them

I like that, what a quote

 

[mydrugbuddy]

I nicked / adapted it from Oscar Wilde, i cant claim the credit for having invented it.

 

[ColtDan]

Fuckin ell i thought you'd just come up with that. the moment is ruined

 

[StoneHappyMonday]

Private schools educate approximately 6.5% of our population.

35% of MPs went to private schools.

Over 50% of the cabinet went to private schools.

80% of what we consider the 'elite' went to private schools.

44% of leaders in business went to private school.

68% of leading figures in public service went to private schools.

63% of lawyers went to private schools.

Yeah, what class system?

 

[Shambles]

I am aware of the class system and am sure it has some kinda effect on my thinking - in fact I know it does cos I do think of people fitting certain classes. However, I try (and think mostly succeed) in not allowing such ultimately arbitrary distinctions effect my opinion of an individual. I think this mainly stems from my college days when I got to meet people who were very much of what I would consider upper-middle, even upper class. I based those classifications of mine on stuff like wealthy parents, going to public school and so forth. I was rather surprised to find that - despite my prejudices - I got on great with people who I'd assumed I'd have nothing in common with and would've mocked mercilessly previously. That is before having actually met such people. Some of my best friends and all that...

As it happens, many people - enough for it to be a definite Thing - assume I went to public school and am - frankly - posh. Nothing could be further from the truth but it's interesting to see how using "big words" sometimes in conversation and speaking with a deliberately non-specific, generic Southern accent (simply cos I can't stand my own voice sometimes - my natural accent being a weird mix of south-east Laaaahndan cum Midlands (I think north Midlands - Northampton to be precise) affects people's views of others.

The Laaaaahndan apsect can only be superficial as I left there very young and can only really exist from spending summers with my relatives from that area (I do believe we have one or two Bromley bods around and about the place - gotta lotta relatives from there although it's not quite where I am originally from it's not far off), The Northamptonian bit I'm far less aware of but far more bothered about, m'duck. My mother says I have a Northampton accent which has encouraged me to flatten it out as much as possible (no offence to any of our North Midlanders - it's a fine accent, just not on me ). As a result, my actual accent is kinda flat, dull and droning. And apparently, a bit posh. Can't hear the posh part myself but I can't hear the Northamptonian but either so what would I know 8)

 

[mydrugbuddy]

Fuckin ell i thought you'd just come up with that. the moment is ruined

hahah, i should have kept quiet about that. Im honest to a fault. That also sounds like something oscar wilde would have written, but i have just made that one up.

 

[StoneHappyMonday]

Just TEN schools are responsible for the education of the top 1/8th of the elite in the UK.

No class system here, we're all George Osbourne now.

 

[mydrugbuddy]

Private schools educate approximately 6.5% of our population.

35% of MPs went to private schools.

Over 50% of the cabinet went to private schools.

80% of what we consider the 'elite' went to private schools.

44% of leaders in business went to private school.

68% of leading figures in public service went to private schools.

63% of lawyers went to private schools.

Yeah, what class system?

hah, you've flummoxed me now. I dont know what to think. Back to square one.

 

[StoneHappyMonday]

Flummoxed is a good word.

But surely we have our professions right? Like being a rock star or something?

In 2010, 60% of those with chart hits were educated at private schools.

6.5% of people are educated at private schools...

 

[mydrugbuddy]

I find that surprising tbh, the world of music has a good share of working class heros. Talent will out, regardless of its origins.

It is true that it helps if you have some knowledge of PR which is typically a middle class thing. When i was in the worlds shittest band the architect of the group knew how to work the Welsh Media. He succeeeded in getting a name for ourselves far out of proportion to our talent. He was middle class, but went to the same comprehensive county high school as me. There were no posh schools within 60 miles of where we lived.

 

[StoneHappyMonday]

You may find it surprising but it's a verifiable statistic. Google is your friend.

Mick Jagger working class hero? Er, no.

Lily Allen? Florence and the Machine? No.

The list is endless.

And you weren't in the worlds shittest band. I was.

 

[Shambles]

Depends on your definition of working class hero again really. I think the grammar school system had a massive effect on such things. Three out of four Beatles were grammar school boys (I'll let you guess which one wasn't ) so whilst perhaps from working class backgrounds they were also very privileged compared to the average comprehensive-educated person. Personally, I was really rather gutted to have just missed the grammar school boat. I honestly think I'd've achieved a lot more if I'd had the chance of a good education.

Not saying all comprehensive schools are shite, but all that I went to (went to quite a few due to moves) were pretty bad and catered for the lowest common denominator rather than aiming to lift others to the higher performing student levels. Without wishing to be overly wanky, I was one of those higher-performing (at least educationally) pupils and had all the enthusiasm and - frankly - hope sucked out of me by a system that sought to flatten out differences on the one hand, and deepen divisions on the other. You did not want to be in the top set of any class cos socially it would destroy you. And that kinda stuff matters a lot during pubescent and teenage years especially.

To be perfectly honest. I know I'm still really rather bitter at having the opportunity to give it my all at school and instead felt I had to hang back, fuck about, and basically waste my school years cos, on the one hand there simply weren't the facilities to cater for pupils of varying strengths and weaknesses, and on the other it ain't fun being bullied so plodding along doing the absolute minimum so you don't stick out too far above (sorry - that does sound wanky but it is the case) your peers in terms of grades and stuff. I really do feel like I've missed out on so much that I could have achieved if I'd been born just a coupla years earlier.

And you weren't in the worlds shittest band. I was.

Fix'd.