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  • EADD Moderators: axe battler | Pissed_and_messed

Class: The Great EADD Debate

The trifle annoyed thread has become a sort of breeding ground for new threads. Here's its latest offspring.

There are several definitions of class, which are based on different sorts of social analysis. Which analysis is most appropriate depends on what you want to achieve. I wouldn't say any one is right or wrong, they are all valid schemes of classification, but some have more utility than others. The one that seems to me to be most useful is the scheme outlined by Marx.

Marxist class analysis is largely based on the relationship people have to the means of production. Means of production is not a term that you hear every day but it's a concept that's central to our lives. The means of production are the things that we use to create the things we need: machinery, factories, offices, computers, tractors, farms, power stations, etc. You might include things like patents too. It's often appropriate to extend the concept to include the means of distribution, so lorries, trains, shops, warehouses, etc. These things are important to our existence in a very fundamental way. So too, therefore, is our relationship to them. Some people own the means of production, and some people do not.

Those who own the means of production have a lot of control over how we live. They may or may not do actual work, i.e. operate the means of production. When they don't join workers on the shop floor, Marx calls them the bourgeoisie*. So the likes of Richard Branson are clearly members of the bourgeoisie.

When they do get their hands dirty, he calls them the petite, or petty, bourgeoisie. That would include, for example, an independent taxi driver, who owns his taxi and also drives it. He may or may not own other taxis and employ other drivers.

Those who do not own the means of production are the working class, or the proletariat. Because they don't own the means of production, they must seek employment by those who do. Sometimes they are employed, and sometimes they are unemployed.

There are more nuances to Marxist class analysis. I can't describe it in full in a post, but he also identified landlords as a class, and he grouped farmers and peasants together. But he was describing things as they were at the time, during the industrial revolution, so society was in a transition from feudal system to a capitalist system. I think if he was writing now, he wouldn't mention peasants, and he would probably include farmers and landlords in the bourgeoisie. He probably wouldn't even use the word "bourgeoisie", but it was an appropriate word at the time he was writing.

Marx wanted to see an improvement in the lot of the workers, because he saw the terrible conditions in which they lived (in Manchester, mostly!) and he chose to analyse society in this way because it reveals tensions in society. There is a tension between the workers and the bourgeoisie because they have conflicting interests. It is, generally, in the worker's interest to get a higher wage, and to reduce the number of hours they work, and to work at a relaxed pace. Opposed to this, it is in the interests of business owners to pay workers less and have them work longer hours and faster. So his analysis reveals a class conflict in society, one that is ever present under capitalism. We are no longer in the middle of the industrial revolution, so some of the language and examples Marx uses can appear archaic, but the fundamental tension between workers and owners is intact, so his analysis is still very relevant, but it takes some imagination to apply his language to current times.

The other definitions of class do not have this revelatory power. The Marxist analysis is dangerous because to understand it is to understand that we are engaged in a battle for our lives. The establishment would far rather you judged people's class on their accent or their job or where they came from, because doing so avoids the recognition of the conflict which is intrinsic to the system we live in. If you don't know you're at war, you're unlikely to fight.

* bourgeois
Historically, the medieval French word bourgeois denoted the inhabitants of the bourgs (walled market-towns), the craftsmen, artisans, merchants, and others, who constituted "the bourgeoisie", they were the socio-economic class between the peasants and the landlords, between the workers and the owners of the means of production. As the economic managers of the (raw) materials, the goods, and the services, and thus the capital (money) produced by the feudal economy, the term "bourgeoisie" evolved to also denote the middle class — the businessmen and businesswomen who accumulated, administered, and controlled the capital that made possible the development of the bourgs into cities.
 
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Very interesting post that Knock. Well done that man.
I've been told I have no class,must be good.
 
You read the paper yourself?? I pay some one to read to to me! lol

For me money has nothing to with class, i base it on morals and values and how people conduct themselves

hahaha, yes that is why i prefer audio books, i struggle to stop my mind wandering with long written passages. Each sentence sets of a train of daydreaming/reflection/memories, especially if i try to read when stoned, so that i rarely read more than one fucking page of any book. But with audio books you have to keep up and concentrate and pay attention.

Max you have loads of class man. You are very modest and understated. That is the definition of class IMO.

I think that post is spot on Knock. What an easily digestible summary of Marxist theory.

One thing that confuses me about present day sociological classifications of class is that proffessions like shopkeeper are seen as middle class. Are they fuck. By all other defintions every shop keeper i have ever met has been working class. Even the richest retailers like Lord Sugar and Phillip Green are 100% working class. It makes no sense. Is that like the taxi driver being petit-bourgeous because he owns his own taxi ?

I long for the day class becomes irrelevant, but i dont think it ever truly will in this country.
 
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One thing that confuses me about present day sociological classifications of class is that proffessions like shopkeeper are seen as middle class. Are they fuck. By all other defintions every shop keeper i have ever met has been working class. Even the richest retailers like Lord Sugar and Phillip Green are 100% working class. It makes no sense. Is that like the taxi driver being petit-bourgeous because he owns his own taxi ?

You say every shop-keeper you've met has been "working class". What do you mean by this? By Marx's definition, they clearly are not working class, because they do not have to sell their labour in order to survive. They may come from a working class background, but that's their background, and doesn't tell you much about their actual function in society.

In what way is Lord Sugar 100% working class? I think it's a very common mistake, particularly in this country, but probably elsewhere, to equate class with accent, because traditionally the upper classes have spoken in a quite different way to the lower classes, but accent is really a cultural thing.

What system are you using when you say he's working class? Or are you using no system at all? I know that for a long time I had no proper system for understanding class, and I would go by accent and what job people had, and I'd just picked up that certain jobs and accents were working class and others were middle or upper. This "picked up" notion of class is the most common everyday one, but there's no actual structure to it, and it just leads to confusion and sometimes hatred or disgust based on very little except how someone speaks.

Sometimes a person's accent does correlate with their social class (under whatever model) but it's definitely not always the case. The reason the correlation exists is heredity. If a person is a rich business owner, their children will (often) get sent to the "right" schools and get whatever support they need to be financially successful. So class is often inherited, along with accent and culture. But sometimes people don't get the financial support of their family, or they hit hard times and end up at the bottom, but they'll keep their accent and preferences, and possibly pass them on to the next generation. The mistake is to assume that "cultural class" and "economic class" are the same thing, or that they come as a package; they often do, but nearly as often they don't.
 
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This is where there are conflicting defintions, or maybe it's just in my head. Lord Sugar is proud of the fact that he started his working life as a "barrow boy". He is proud of his working class roots. His manner of speaking is extremely down to earth, intolerant of any 'airy fairy' intellectual/acadamic type thinking associated more with the middle classes. He is extremely practical and concerned with nuts and bolts and concrete things, rather than abstract ideas. He is not stupid by any means, he is extremely gifted in his own way, and he exhbits all the traits typically associated with working class rather than middle class people.

Background/who you are as a person, and function in society, are two very different ways of defining people.
 
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Money has nothing to do with social class. Skilled working class tradespersons like joiners, builders, engineers, oil rig workers etc can earn far more than typically middle class proffesions like teaching or social work etc.

Not to mention all the tax they dodge. Working class tradespersons is where the money is at.
 
yes, they swap skilled labour for skilled labour, without any money ever changing hands. The tax man doesnt hear about any of this.
 
This is where there are conflicting defintions, or maybe it's just in my head. Lord Sugar is proud of the fact that he started his working life as a "barrow boy". He is proud of his working class roots. His manner of speaking is extremely down to earth, intolerant of any 'airy fairy' intellectual/acadamic type thinking associated more with the middle classes. He is extremely practical and concerned with nuts and bolts and concrete things, rather than abstract ideas. He is not stupid by any means, he is extremely gifted in his own way, and he exhbits all the traits typically associated with working class rather than middle class people.

Background/who you are as a person, and function in society, are two very different ways of defining people.

Yes exactly, they're very different definitions and they are conflicting. My whole point here is to highlight that. The word "class" covers multiple schemes of categorisation. How someone speaks and their attitudes is one sort of class. Their economic role in society is another. And their economic status (how much money they've got) yet another. The three are often related, but they are not the same.
 
I think 'identity' is also important. I think people define themselves as being a certain class, though some people may think of themselves as classless, or think they belong to a certain class, when according to other peoples criteria they are mistaken in their own beliefs as to which class they belong to. I'm pretty sure that Alan Sugar sees himself as working class, whether he owns the means of production or not.

TV characters like Hyacinth Buquet considered themselves a higher class than they actually were, and were full of ridiculous snobberies and pretensions. Such characters must be exaggerations of real life characters. Ive known working class people adopt ludicrous upper class accents. Wtf. Some people have a confused identity. Most people want to 'better their lot'. I guess that means living in greater luxury and style. Whether you want to climb out of the working classes so your kids can become middle class is a different thing. I think my parents wanted that for me and my sister. She is doing very well in her career and has a middle class proffession but has married someone definately working class. Ive known middle class kids who 'act all working class'. The whole thing is extremely complicated and confusing.
 
I think 'identity' is also important. I think people define themselves as being a certain class, though some people may think of themselves as classless, or think they belong to a certain class, when according to other peoples criteria they are mistaken in their own beliefs as to which class they belong to. I'm pretty sure that Alan Sugar sees himself as working class, whether he owns the means of production or not.

Yes people do often identify as a certain class, whether or not it's based on material facts. You say "identity is important", I suppose it is, in that we need to know who we are, but I'm not sure that class identity is particularly important in that sense, and we know there are people who actively reject a class identity, and I think that's fine, I don't really identify with a class in that sense myself, the idea I would want to talk or eat in certain ways or be interested in certain things "because of my class" seems pretty odd.

It's quite common for "self-made men" to identify as "working class and proud". No doubt if you rise to the upper echelons like Sugar has done, you find yourself mixing with people who are quite unlike you, and therefore your background and "cultural class" become a bit prominent and obvious. So I suppose class identity is "important" when it singles you out. It's also a bit of a boast, for Sugar it means he's a "self-made man", didn't have any special advantages and he got where he is by his own merit.

Other than Sugar and the like, I'm sure most people don't think much about how great or terrible it is to be whatever class they see themselves as :)

What would it mean for Sugar not to identify as working class? I mean other than simply not saying "I'm working class", what would it involve?
 
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MDB, it's interesting that the two examples you've chosen are both from Jewish immigrant backgrounds, which is possibly affecting the way you perceive their social class.

Sugar was from a working class background, yes, but Green? Definitely not.
 
Yeah i think most well adjusted people are happy and proud to be whoever they are, whether they see themselves as whatever class or not. It would be impossible for Sugar not to identify as working class, its who he is. I find it very hard to explain but I'm sure you know what I mean. He would have to pretend to be someone he isnt in order to not identify as working class. :?

Really Sam ? I didnt know that. I dont think the Jewish thing has any bearing on anything atall. Ive never heard Phillip Green talk, but he looks working class to me, in his style and taste. But i have no reason to doubt you.
 
Maybe the bullish masculinity of the retail trade has something to do with it. Green was born into a prosperous family and inherited the businesses his father had built up. Admittedly this happened when he was twelve (!), so he didn't have an extensive education.

You'll find that many people from ethnic minority groups fit the traditional British class profile a lot less comfortably than their income brackets might otherwise suggest.

Yet another complexity. :)
 
It would be impossible for Sugar not to identify as working class, its who he is. I find it very hard to explain but I'm sure you know what I mean. He would have to pretend to be someone he isnt in order to not identify as working class. :?

I think I know what you mean, he has an accent and mannerisms which you associate with "working class" and he lacks an accent and mannerisms you associate with other classes, right? So he would have to change how he speaks, and his mannerisms?

People working as actors or TV presenters do this regularly. Actors are of course trained to modify their accent and behaviour. Maybe if Sugar started off as an actor and then became a businessman he would have dropped what you see as his working class image.

He collects Rolls Royces. That's not a particularly working class hobby, is it?

Really Sam ? I didnt know that. I dont think the Jewish thing has any bearing on anything atall. Ive never heard Phillip Green talk, but he looks working class to me, in his style and taste. But i have no reason to doubt you.

He wears a suit, and he looks a bit scruffy. I'm not sure how any of that could tell you that he's working class! Is it the shape of his head? Maybe his gut? The grey curly mullet? Can you tell from a still picture, like this one:

200px-Philip_Green.jpg


Is that screaming "working class" at you? :D

Could you post a picture representative of the middle class?
 
Rude boy , blagger ,Mac Daddy , [video=youtube_share;nnZpNuesRWo]http://youtu.be/nnZpNuesRWo[/video]
Working class born n Bred
Left wing .

I get over 20gs b4 i even do anything one time seletion play the game Proffesional style. i do legit, medical conditions but i still get round Europe ok .

raking it in !!!!!;)


Proper Tings
 
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I don't think that kids are broth up to be so class conscious these days. Thatcher sorted that out. Seriously, are there any people under the age of 20 who are aware of class? I think it's a psycho trick anyway. The working class either are proud or ashamed of their working class roots and either instil l it in their young ones or pull them into the middle class. My sister is funny. She loves to think that she's hardcore workingclass and sticks her nose up at the middle class yet she is so middle class in her ways. With this psych thing about it I've kind of kept myself down with the working class and not wanted to climb the social ladder, actually because I used to value her judgement. But I'm not materialistic. well, even the middle class are working class really . If you work you're working class and that's that. we're all struggling to pay bills and that. That's the way that it is.
 
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