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  • EADD Moderators: Pissed_and_messed | Shinji Ikari

Class: The Great EADD Debate

The Beatles, Ronnie wood, Keith Richards, Bruce Spingsteen, The boss no less, Bryan Adams, U2 ?, Stiff Little Fingers, The Sex Pistols, i could go on.

I must admit that I was a bit dismayed at how posh Pink Floyd and David Gilmour are/ is, i wanted him to be a working class hero, but he's a million miles away.

Damn, you had bad luck with your education Shambles. It wasnt until i made the sixth form that the teachers began to individually fathom each pupils abilities and teach to their individual levels. There was between 5-10 of us in each class, so i was very fortunate with my A level teachers, and owe them a debt of gratitude. I felt the quality of education i received for my A levels was far above that offered at second rate universities/former polytechnics.

I'll send you the tape SHM and you can judge for yourself. We did have a talented lead guitarist and for brief moments things would click together, before falling apart as myself and our rythm guitarist needed sacking.
 
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MDB, I could go on too. And my list would be 60/40 over yours. In a system where equality would make it more like 6.5/93.5.

Shambles, if it helps your bitterness...I'm the youngest of four. All my elder brethren went to grammar school, having passed the 11+. It was stopped the year I was due to take it. I don't feel in the least disadvantaged compared to them. Plus they had to deal with snobbery many years before I did (I had to wait until I went to uni).
 
Mick Jagger gets a bad rap for supposedly being upper middle class, but it all stems from him having attended the LSE. Prior to that he attended a grammar school, having passed his eleven plus at Wentworth County Primary. Keith attended the same place, only he failed the eleven plus and ended up at art school.

It's well-documented that Marianne Faithfull had to teach Mick how to be middle class from the bottom up, Marianne herself being the scion of an aristocratic family which had fallen on hard times.

It's Mick's later social-climbing which earned him the nickname 'Sir Mick' long before he was actually knighted.
 
Shambles, if it helps your bitterness...I'm the youngest of four. All my elder brethren went to grammar school, having passed the 11+. It was stopped the year I was due to take it. I don't feel in the least disadvantaged compared to them. Plus they had to deal with snobbery many years before I did (I had to wait until I went to uni).

Yeah, I'm aware it's essentially rosy-tintedness for a thing I never had any actual connection too. It's all hindsight and wishful thinking really. I honestly do think I'd've thrived in a grammar school setting though. Or at least in an educational system where achievement was encouraged rather than actively discouraged.
 
Yeah, I'm aware it's essentially rosy-tintedness for a thing I never had any actual connection too. It's all hindsight and wishful thinking really. I honestly do think I'd've thrived in a grammar school setting though. Or at least in an educational system where achievement was encouraged rather than actively discouraged.

I know what you mean. The best education I had was my A levels (pissed all over uni teaching) and that was a tech college. Still working class but not restricted by the comprehensive 'ideals' and I fucking bloomed there to be a bit immodest. Funnily enough, the posh kids who went there, public school dropouts, all failed miserably. But they did get me into drugs.
 
Real interesting stat's SHM. I don't watch it myself, but Eastenders is a classic example of how class back ground affects future success. Anyone who's ever seen an interview on jonathon ross or whatever, will see that the mitchell brothers are middle class all thee way. Working class people don't even get to play themselves on TV.

For me growing up it I was such a mishmash. My dad was very middle class, though having dropped out of education etcc post public school had very little money when i was young. My mother was a roughly midddle class german immigrant working as a nurse. We grew up right on the edge of a sprawingly "white boy" council estate. It was hard for me as a kid because the only kid's I went to school with were basically just young thugs, and as I started getting in trouble with the police etc.. my parents wouldn't let me hang around with the majority of the kids I had grown up with and had been mates with. I' kind of glad of this now as I would have just grown up to be another shit head wearing a sov standing in the worst pub on the estate drinkng wife beater. Didn't help too much with the whole marginalisation / bullying thing at the time though.

All this went right on though all my schools up until college. I did a shambles and stopped paying attention in class for fear of all the taunts etc.. It wasn't the worst school in the city grade wise, which got just 13% A- C's but it wasn't the best either, with just 35 % A - C's.

I see myself as much in term's of my liberal politics than my class these days, which I take to be middle. I still carry a lot of the working class values that i grew up with when it comes to violence as such. I can still remember the first "organised" fight I had when I was about 9 years old. It was all arranged at school between me and this lad who I'd schooled in an after school "friendly" scrap playing underneath one of the tower blocks one night. Its funny looking back because the fight took place a stones throw away from what I call "gypsy green", where all the bare knuckle fighters used to have it out not as long ago as you might think.

Anyway, it was real interesting looking back because all the older kids on both sides were basically teaching me and this kid how it was done. First we had to take our shirts off and then it was time to go,with everyone standing round in a circle. i was skilled in judo so I was getting the bettter of it on the ground for the first 10 mins or so. But the older lads weren't happy. Apparently there wasn't enough blood. So we took to more of a stand up boxing match until we were both bleeding pretty bad. In the end, since neither of us would quit, one his mates handed him a plank of wood and I finally though in the towel and ran off with my mates.

It's such a weird one when it comes to fighting. I don't believe its a sensible way to solve disputes. We're far more evolved than that. But when I watch Louis Theroux documentaries on all the fighting that goes on in some prison's etc... even though I know its dumb, another part of me gets it. I don't know if that's just cos I'm a naturally scrappy guy, one of the reason I don't drink, or the background were I came from but for some reason i find it all inexplicably comfortable territory.

The thing I hate the most though, is that after I going to one of the shittest schools in the city, and then getting top grades from the worst college in my county, I fucked up my degree after having made it to a top 30 posh uni. Now I'm back living in the same shit hole I grew up in surrounded by people I hate, despite spending my early 20' and late teens doing everything I could to come across as one of them, and I got no one to blame for it but myself. Don't get me wrong, I like getting my hair cut at the local thug barber shop, sitting there reading nutt's and talking about football and boxing, but deep down i hate it. I hate the fact I escaped all that before mailing myself back home with some shitty 3rd class mailing stamp on the front of the envelope.
 
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It's such a weird one when it comes to fighting. I don't believe its a sensible way to solve disputes. We're far more evolved than that. But when I watch Louis Theroux documentaries on all the fighting that goes on in some prison's etc... even though I know its dumb, another part of me gets it.

I'm much the same. Fighting was kinda my hobby at school. Was really rather into it. In hindsight, utterly idiotic, but I am still somewhat proud of the fact that I tended to go up to the biggest kid/worst bully and just twat the cunt. This always lead to one of those "organised after school fights" Swarm mentions (in my case on the granny-cum-industrial estate over the road from the school cos was quiet and hard for police to get to in a hurry). In said organised fights I basically always got the shit kicked out of me (they really were Bigger Boys and by the time the crowd had gathered all the adrenaline that kicked the whole thing off was long gone leaving me with a lotta support but precious little hope of actual victory (moral victory is another matter ;)) but never backed down and never gave up. Was always other people stepping in that broke it up. Usually around the point I couldn't actually see for the amount of blood in my eyes. By modern standards this was all pretty tame stuff - certainly no blades or owt - but vicious enough. And I must admit I <3'd it. And hated it. Terrfiied of it. Looking forward to it. Funny ol' mix. I suspect it was mostly trying to work off anger and frustration from homelife but - as mentioned - the fact I focussed my aggression on the most wildly inappropriate (in terms of having any chance of beating) but most wonderfully appropriate (in terms of "sticking it to the man" (well, bullyboy(s))) does rather please me even now. In a funny kinda way.

Incidentally, I'm now the most placid, least violent or aggressive person you could possibly imagine. 99.999% of the time anyway. I know I do still have the stroppy scrapper streak in me but it really does take a helluva lot for it to make a public outing. And if it does, the person on the other end absolutely deserves it. Although I'd still almost certainly be the more battered and bruised at the end :D:o8)
 
You used to be a fight loving bully?? bloody ell i never would have thought that
 
The Sex Pistols, i could go on.

are you trying to suggest that pistols went to private schools ?

I claim to be no expert, but I doubt that statement very much with the exception pf Glen Matlock, John went to a Catholic scholl with nuns and all, the other just don't seem likely contenders, I mean Steve Jones spent most of his use squating a warehouse teaching himself guitar.

Pink Floyd ???? I've nothing to say:D
 
You used to be a fight loving bully?? bloody ell i never would have thought that

I used to love fighting bullies, yes. And, frankly, fighting in general. Was a right scrapper me. But, as mentioned, the fact that my social standing at school was an odd one (generally considered one of the Kewl Kidz but at the same time tending to be lumped in with the dweebs due to apparent poverty and general "differentness") which meant my friends often got picked on a lot, and I got picked on somewhat less (by the same people, but did vary quite a bit) and I'm still kinda proud that I would always (sooner or later) pick a fight with the bully even knowing full well I was not gonna come out of it well. I've also been a bully - although that was in my much younger days when I was just a very angry and frustrated lil boy. That I'm not proud of and is perhaps part of the (subconscious) reason I switched to being a bully-basher later on.

From what I've said it kinda sounds like I just got battered a lot even when starting it, the truth is rather different. I tended to pick fights I had no hope of winning cos Bigger Boys are Bigger Boys and I was quite a late developer physically so tended to be a lot (physically) smaller and weaker but I'd like to think I at least put on a good show. It's incredibly rare I'd resort to violence these days but the last time it happened was a good decade ago and once again I picked a fight with a bigger (frankly fukkin hy-ooooge) geezer who was knocking off my fiance and - perhaps unsurprisingly - it wore thin. Blimey did I get a kicking that night but she never did go back to him and I was very much her hero for a while. Not been in a proper fight since. Although have been on the receiving end of some fairly extreme violence since. Not since I moved to Welsh Wales (although some of the locals did like to try to kick off when I used to go to the pubs of a weekend - I opted to stop going to pubs rather than lower myself to violence of such mindless variety).
 
Fair one, i was always a bit of a pansy at school, didnt really get into many fights or get bullied. although there was a couple of these big pricks who used to slap people around the head, myself as well. one of them did it to me in spoons a few years ago for old times sake and walked off laughing, i was vodka'd, proper smacked the cunt
 
Ha! And I bet you felt rather good about it too, Dan :D

I'm absolutely not trying to glorify violence cos I honestly do abhor it, but there is such satisfaction in twatting an out and out bully. It's the sheer look of shock and disbelief that used to please me most I think. Always sure I spotted just the teensiest glimmers of genuine fear behind the eyes too. And even if I did ultimately lose the fight, generally speaking the spell had been broken - often beyond repair - and they never did manage to get back the level of fear and control over others as beforehand. I really don't approve of violence but bullying is a special case.
 
Private schools educate approximately 6.5% of our population.

35% of MPs went to private schools.

Over 50% of the cabinet went to private schools.

80% of what we consider the 'elite' went to private schools.

44% of leaders in business went to private school.

68% of leading figures in public service went to private schools.

63% of lawyers went to private schools.

Yeah, what class system?
The fact that 75% of politicians did not attend a private school highlights the fact that coming from a lower economic class does not stop you from any ambition. Class isn't the barrier that it may have been even 100 yrs ago. The way you are bought up simply molds your interests rather than defines your future. The only thing stopping most people are their own prejudices. I find it is often the lower class that holds onto preconceived ideas, with many people not wanting to leave their working class roots for fear of offending their own, rather than the elite keeping them down.
 
The fact that 75% of politicians did not attend a private school highlights the fact that coming from a lower economic class does not stop you from any ambition.

The fact that a private education doesn't guarantee basic maths ability is somehow rather satisfying.

You're also missing the point entirely. 6.5% of the population attended private schools, the government is supposed to be representative of the people. I won't say "do the maths" (for obvious reasons ;)) but will repeat that you are missing SHM's point entirely.
 
Ha! And I bet you felt rather good about it too, Dan :D

I'm absolutely not trying to glorify violence cos I honestly do abhor it, but there is such satisfaction in twatting an out and out bully. It's the sheer look of shock and disbelief that used to please me most I think. Always sure I spotted just the teensiest glimmers of genuine fear behind the eyes too. And even if I did ultimately lose the fight, generally speaking the spell had been broken - often beyond repair - and they never did manage to get back the level of fear and control over others as beforehand. I really don't approve of violence but bullying is a special case.

Haha yeah felt very good after it

Havent really been in many fights although there was this time an old mate accused me of trying it on with his misses, i was on the old vodka again and he was pretty pissed, we were with a few other friends in town, anyway a couple of times before he'd tried to square up to me when drunk, anyways i told him he was talking bollocks n he pushed me and caught my glasses with his hand, they went off onto the pavement. n if theres one thing that pisses me off is my glasses getting broken etc, fuck me did i rage, i stamped on them and smashed them to bits, smacked him in the face, he got me, i smacked him again n backwards headlocked him and made him kiss the pavement for 5 mins, let him up, he runs off to a group of people "fuckin kill him!!!" he was shouting. and then they beat him up lol

And this other time a drunk college kid was being a patronizing snooty sarcastic cunt to me at the bar of this place and pissed me right off, got my drink and walked off, then thought actually fuck this, walked back put my drink down and jabbed him in the face, lil wanker went flying back into this girl behind him, self sorry for her. apart from that hate fighting when out, ruins the mood, peace n love
 
Glad you said that shambles cos I didn't want to be misunderstood and I'm glad someone else got some identificication.

I was a slightly diffrerent case in that I had skills from ea early age (judo from 5 years old, making the nationals every year and winning myfair share of trophies). Even then though my biggest problem was the nerves i would get before a fight. It affected both my performance for my footy team and my performances in judo championships (though sometimes the extra adrenaline worked to an adantage, once one gold and "throw of the day" trophie for a win inside 2 seconds, against my toughest rival rival as well).

My problems kicked in more again when i was around 13 14. I guess I was kinda a nerd, in that i was in top set, plus i was into rock and stuff, but I never got bullied so much as made to fight cos i was also on the footy team and picked P.E as one of my final two year choice subjects. There was this one lad who used to play footy with us, or encroach on are game with his geeza prick mates off the estate, after school. He always used to go for me man. Maybe because I had a posher accent for the area, or cos I was good (football was my whole life until i tore my achilles tendon clean through on second game of season at 14 - devasted me, used to play 6-7 hours every sat and sun, plus few hours after school evryday i wanted to be a pro so bad). Anyway this kid would usuallu have a weapon on him. He had this hockey sick he liked and he would smash me round the legs so bad. It was after one particulary bad beating off this guy that i decided i needed to learn how to fight.

That's when i started training tae kwon do, age 14 training 3 times a week. There were 4 of us, me, my best mate who'd also come off a similar beating, my bro and his psycho mate who never went anywhere without a duster. This was the difference btween me and shambles i guess. i wish I had had the guts to just take the beatings, but instead i got up my confidence by getting the skills first. Worked though. Reputaion got around and soon the guys that had been fucking with me, calling me out in front of people all the time, starting taking less risks. i remember the clinical time when this beast of a guy who'd always bullied me, came up to me in gym when i was 16 and had a couple years training under my belt. He walked up to me and ran his finger down the bridge of my nose real slow then said how he was gonna smash it all over my face. It was different than before though, he was more testing the waters. i never broke eye contact with him, and told him to fucking bring it. That was the end of my troubles at school.

Later on in life, during my drinking years at uni i had two opposite sort of things happen that sill haunt me. The first was me blind drunk picking a fight with this guy. In fairness he was a geeza and on the footy team an evetything, but he didn't stat it and just didn't want to back down. I got chucked out the club for starting on him, then half hour later my mate got out the club and pointed him out. i was wasted i only remember bits but I wouldn't let it go. "Pussy,Pussy" I kept shouting after him. we got to the top of the sea front and squared off. his bird said somthing and i told her to fuck off. He didn't like that next thing it kicked of and we hit the ground. It was worse cos i was boxing by that time too. I caught him with 4 clean shots, left and right combo, to the face before his mates descended in on me. The useless bastards couldn't even do shit to me even though i was on the ground and they were trying to kick me in the head and everything. I was just too skilled i guess. I really hurt this lad though. My shirt was covered in blood so you can imagine what his face looked like. That hit me hard. It was one of my earliest attempts to tone down my drinking.

The other situation was total opposite. I got set up and found myself round the back of an alley way, having been up for 3 days on speed and alcohol. The second someone pushed me forward beind a parked car i turned and saw a see of white hats and trainers. Don't ask me if it was 10 or 20, what's the difference. They were bigger than me as well. Somehow i outran them to the end of the cut way out onto the open street (it was night time and real dark), but as i turned the corner i clipped my heal and the closest one managed to kick my legs out. Fortunately all those rounds in the gym mean't i had an iron clad guard, but even that isn't gonna save you when you got ten plus brick shit houses penalty kicking you full in the face. Fortunately there were police everywhere, plus normal people, one of who broke it up, or rather intervened at the around the time he tried to step in - don't think any of them fancied prison.

Most of the kicks went around the side of head (couldn't even really think straight for about six days i took so many blows) but a couple found their way through the my guard. My right eye was split real bad so i was covered in blood and one of my front teeth was cracked. Rips didn't feel to great either. As they ran off back out of site i was stood there in the middle of the street laughing because i couldn't believe how little damage i actually came away with, my nose wan't broken, or even my jaw. At the same time i never got over what would have happened if they got me round the back of that alley where they were waiting. i'd put money that several had blades and I reckon i'd be in a wheel chair right now most probably. Also happened 5 days after my first ever suicide attempt. I was also homeless at the time too. Don't know how i didn't crack up mentally but I somehow held stong for the 3 weeks before some angel sent from heaven from the council service moved me into final year accomodation. Took me a few years to realise it, but i now know, looking back that I suffered post traumatic stress disorder for a good couple of years after that.
 
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The fact that a private education doesn't guarantee basic maths ability is somehow rather satisfying.

You're also missing the point entirely. 6.5% of the population attended private schools, the government is supposed to be representative of the people. I won't say "do the maths" (for obvious reasons ;)) but will repeat that you are missing SHM's point entirely.

A greater percentage of private school students enjoy rugby and cricket, exposure to these sports is more the reason than them being exclusive to the wealthy. All of society is being represented, it is simply the lower classes who have no desire to become a politician not because they are being prevented from it.
 
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