Question about heroin?

[SkagKush]

just because you shoot up does not mean you are addicted and use the needle every day......IV use can be the safest ROA with the least amount of negative impact on the body......(clean gear and technique)

its just the perception of the needle that scares people.....

i was not dissing you, i was just surprised that someone who has been on BL for that many posts was not aware of this......we are here for HR, and i would not describe IV use to be "disgusting"

 

[TheLostBoys]

just because you shoot up does not mean you are addicted and use the needle every day......IV use can be the safest ROA with the least amount of negative impact on the body......(clean gear and technique)

its just the perception of the needle that scares people.....

i was not dissing you, i was just surprised that someone who has been on BL for that many posts was not aware of this......we are here for HR, and i would not describe IV use to be "disgusting"

Maybe I should have worded it differently....when I said disgusting, I meant needles disgust me. I had a waitress that contracted hepatitis c because of her bf, he was a heroin addict but now is clean. That disgusted me when I heard she contracted it from him. Anyways, like ive stated before, I still will talk to someone using a needle & even hang out with them

I use to have a dishwasher/janitor at the restaurant that was a heroin addict & was a damn good worker but I will still hate needles.

Why would someone with over 1,000 posts surprise you about needle use? Its not like I hang out with heroin users, I dont. Growing up & even up to the age of 30, I didnt have 1 friend or even know of anyone that used heroin. Ive learned most of my knowledge about heroin on this site.

 

[adder]

i dont rely want to try morphine ( wont look for it but if someone has it ill try it and i would plug it ).

Bioavailability of morphine p.r. is like morphine taken orally so it's a waste. I've never taken morphine either way but I've seen people building up a tolerance of 500mg of morphine p.r. 500mg looks like a massive dose but it's comparable to 150mg i.v.'ed and that kind of tolerance is easy to develop being in a binge. I myself had to shoot more than 200mg at some point when I was addicted to morphine.

do any opiates ( mainly H ) do any real damage to the body/mind? like organ damage, killing brain cells, hair loss ect... ( i heard the fully synthetic ones like methadone are the worst for you )

Street heroin may do damage to your skin or your teeth but this comes more from additives than from heroin itself. Opioids like heroin will cause bruxism so doing opioids you may do harm to yourself not knowing about. Other than that opioids (4,5-epoxymorphinans widely abused) aren't really dangerous for any organs if they are clean.

But what comes with addiction and binging is another thing. In the long run opioids have bad impact on immune system.

And if methadone was so bad/toxic, it wouldn't be used in maintenance treatment which is in most cases lifelong. Methadone stigmatization concerning safety of its use arises probably because of it prolongs OT interval in heart electric cycle. This is not dangerous unless one has some heart disease.

IMO heroin/opiates are probably as safe as alcohol in the long run...just depends on ROA

Oh, it's definitely not true! Ethyl alcohol is much more toxic than any opioid, especially in the long run! Heroin or morphine metabolism doesn't lead to formation of such toxic compounds like acetaldehyde and acetic acid. Really, I could give a long lecture why illegal drugs are less toxic to human body than legal ethyl alcohol found in so many alcohol beverages. It's the culture that makes so many people believe it's good to have alcohol legal and drugs are the devil inside. It's ridiculous. During my everyday walk to the bus stop I have to look at boozers with violet-red faces. It's such a beautiful view... Of people who have gone down totally.

 

[Kenickie]

every single junky was once at the place you are at right now. you are on a very steep slope. i see questions like this on BL all the time and it makes me very sad, all these people thinking they can cheat dope addiction by sticking to a perfect plan they made. sooner or later the time between highs will shorten, the plan will go out the window, along with your soul.

This. We have lost so many members of this board to heroin, so many. Some are strong enough to be recreational users, the majority are not. You've already said you cut down from 10 days to every 5 because you need your fix more often. You're headed the wrong direction, and fast. Heroin is a creeper, before you know it, you'll be in it's grip. I lived through it, and won't touch it again. I enjoyed banging too much. Now that I've been there, I know I can recreationally enjoy a vicodin here or an oxycontin there, or maybe even a fentanyl patch, but I'm never, ever, ever, touching heroin ever again. Too dangerous. Anything that pleasurable is addictive. Anything pleasurable is addictive, people like feeling good.

Just be careful.

 

[kokaino]

I feel the same way, man. I hang out with people who shoot up, and sometimes they'll do it in front of me. It's not something that I'm into, but I don't hate on others for it. I don't look down on other people for it.

And heroin does become a whole different animal when you IV it. People talk about "the rush," right? It's always "the rush" that people seem to chase. Well, to experience that rush, you need to IV heroin. Why? Because heroin metabolizes very, very quickly into morphine, and morphine does not cross the bbb as quickly as heroin. In other words, heroin is like morphine in a sports car. When a user IVs heroin, heroin reaches their brain before metabolizing into morphine. Then it does the Trojan Horse thing, metabolizes into morphine and fills those connectors in the brain all at once -- that's "the rush." Snorting heroin, my preferred roa, results in heroin's metabolizing into morphine before reaching the brain. So, it's essentially like taking morphine. I feel good, real good, but there's no "rush" really.

So trust me, I understand your feelings completely. I just don't like the idea of shooting up.

Shooting up is the same thing. The acetyl groups are broken off the morphine molecule before the morphine crosses the BBB, when it does it fills the opioid receptors. No matter how you take heroin, you end getting high on morphine. That's why it's called a morphine prodrug. Heroin is simply a faster acting form of morphine. That's all it is. The two drugs are 1 and the same.

I just have a hard time believing that using heroin responsibly and in such a way as to avoid physical dependence and addiction is impossible.

It may be hard to imagine, but isn't the same true for nearly every substance, even alcohol? I mean, a certain percentage will become alcoholics but the majority will not.

EDIT: I mean, what the hell, why wouldn't we say the same thing to sociable drinkers? "No way, man! That's how it all starts! First, you'll be drinking only at parties, then on weekends, and then before you know it you'll be a full-blown alcoholic!" O RLY?

The reason for this is simple: morphine/heroin (whatever you want to call it, they're the same) is just a more addictive substance than alcohol is. It's as simple as that.

 

[K'd-OUT-in-AZ]

I know people who use opiates recreationally and avoided physical addiction by using just every here and there. A couple times a week but not every week. Personally I don't know how they do it. I became addicted after my first Vicodin bottle. It may have something with my addictive personality. As for heroin, I actually know someone who uses it and has never become dependent. I've been on opiates, on and off since I was 15, so that means 13 years. However the last 4 years I haven't been using oxys and heroin, I've been on a maintenance opioid. "Jail, institutions or death" ...I had to repeat those words hundreds of times in rehab. I've been to jail a couple times and plenty of institutions so it is a miracle I'm not dead. I don't intend on dying so I'm keeping clean.

I have NEVER met someone who shoots heroin and avoided addiction. Once you do that I also believe you've got a 99.9% of not becoming addicted. I think you have got a better chance of becoming addicted if you smoke it. The route of administration makes a difference but not by much.

But to answer the question, you can avoid physical withdrawal symptoms by using it once a week but this doesn't mean you won't eventually become addicted. Although some can do it without catching a habit.

 

[thelonegunman]

It doesn't work like that, buddy. Eventually it'll go from every 5-7 day, to every 3 days, and then you'll somehow justify doing it every other day and then it's got you. When it gets you, it will be a relationship that will end you up either in prison, institutions, or death. Heroin will take everything away from you, I know because I was an addict for 11 years (I still occasionally dabble, even though I'm on methadone).

this is the most inanely, hysterical stuff. big ups at the end yo

 

[thelonegunman]

^ agree with both last two. dayum.

 

[thelonegunman]

Too dangerous. Anything that pleasurable is addictive. Anything pleasurable is addictive, people like feeling good.

Just be careful.

Once you've touched the sun, walking on the earth just don't feel so great no more...
-DJ OTis The Cat

 

[SkagKush]

^ you can edit your first post so that you dont have three posts in a row......

we like editing............

 

[jerlin09]

Drugs like heroin, cocaine, MDPV and so on have a withdrawal effect on a cellular level. This can result in symptoms like depression, anxiety, etc. Taking the drug again alleviates the effects, so the mechanism is different to impulse control.

Drug Rehab

 

[imighthave]

this seems to be an active thread so hope im not imposing, i used to be a H addict, im totally opiate naive but i have a good hookup for Diacetylmorphine amps... what is a good starting dose, and suppose I were able to do 1/4 gram of tar at a time, what is an equiv dose?

 

[adder]

Heroin is simply a faster acting form of morphine. That's all it is. The two drugs are 1 and the same.

Actually, they're not. It's too much of a simplification. Heroin is metabolized to a unique compound: 6-acetylmorphine (6-MAM). And this drug is also responsible for narcotic effects of heroin intake. And as a side-note, drug tests can tell if a person took morphine or heroin by looking for 3- and 6-acetylmorphine. If we simplified everything, we could come to a conclusion that codeine and morphine are the same drug too.

 

[verso]

Shooting up is the same thing. The acetyl groups are broken off the morphine molecule before the morphine crosses the BBB, when it does it fills the opioid receptors. No matter how you take heroin, you end getting high on morphine. That's why it's called a morphine prodrug. Heroin is simply a faster acting form of morphine. That's all it is. The two drugs are 1 and the same.

That's not true. IVing heroin results in its crossing the bbb before turning into morphine, and that's why IV users experience "the rush." (It reaches the brain, turns to morphine, and fills those receptors virtually all at once.) Snorting heroin results in its turning into morphine before reaching the brain, and so it is absorbed more slowly. Hence, there's little to no "rush."

EDIT: Actually, that may not be true either... snorting heroin should result in its bypassing first-pass metabolism as well. Huh... screw it, I don't know. I'm going to have to think more about this...

 

[kokaino]

Actually, they're not. It's too much of a simplification. Heroin is metabolized to a unique compound: 6-acetylmorphine (6-MAM). And this drug is also responsible for narcotic effects of heroin intake. And as a side-note, drug tests can tell if a person took morphine or heroin by looking for 3- and 6-acetylmorphine. If we simplified everything, we could come to a conclusion that codeine and morphine are the same drug too.

No because new research has shown that morphine is not responsible for codeine's analgesic effect in this link.

Plus, 6MAM is an extremely minor metabolite and it too is metabolized into morphine rather quickly. All pharmacopoeia's claim that heroin is a prodrug for the delivery of systemic morphine.

Heroin and Morphine are one and the same. Morphine is what binds to the opioid receptors and gets you high when you use "heroin".

That's not true. IVing heroin results in its crossing the bbb before turning into morphine, and that's why IV users experience "the rush." (It reaches the brain, turns to morphine, and fills those receptors virtually all at once.) Snorting heroin results in its turning into morphine before reaching the brain, and so it is absorbed more slowly. Hence, there's little to no "rush."

No matter what way you look at it the end result is morphine binding to the opioid receptors and getting you. In vivo, there is no such thing as "heroin". Its a morphine prodrug. This is a known fact among all medical doctor, nurse, or pharmacist. Go ask your local pharmacist and watch what he'll tell you.

 

[verso]

No matter what way you look at it the end result is morphine binding to the opioid receptors and getting you. In vivo, there is no such thing as "heroin". Its a morphine prodrug. This is a known fact among all medical doctor, nurse, or pharmacist. Go ask your local pharmacist and watch what he'll tell you.

I'm not arguing with you that heroin is a morphine prodrug, but what I am arguing is that how heroin is taken results in its being metabolized a certain way and that it truly does affect "the experience." I have always imagined heroin as being morphine in a sports car, able to sneak morphine through the bbb very, very quickly. Taking heroin orally would result in its being metabolized into morphine before reaching the brain. Because morphine crosses the bbb with more difficulty than when it is in its heroin sports car, those receptors would be filled more slowly, and so there would be little or no rush at all. Does this make sense?

 

[kokaino]

I'm not arguing with you that heroin is a morphine prodrug, but what I am arguing is that how heroin is taken results in its being metabolized a certain way and that it truly does affect "the experience." I have always imagined heroin as being morphine in a sports car, able to sneak morphine through the bbb very, very quickly. Taking heroin orally would result in its being metabolized into morphine before reaching the brain. Because morphine crosses the bbb with more difficulty than when it is in its heroin sports car, those receptors would be filled more slowly, and so there would be little or no rush at all. Does this make sense?

Exactly! I've always looked at it like the 2 acetyl groups being propellers that propel morphine to the brain faster than morphine would on its own.

Look at the molecules, they are exactly the same except for the red part on heroin:


Morphine:

Heroin:

See the 2 acetyl groups break off and 'propel' morphine to the brain quicker than morphine would on its own. Other than the 2 acetyl groups (red), they are identical.

So yes, when you do heroin - you're getting high off of morphine. Heroin exists only in the exterior world, but it is not a drug of it's own - it's a prodrug. It's a delivery system for morphine.

 

[verso]

Propellers, huh? I like that.

I think that more research needs to be done, but I believe very strongly that using heroin recreationally is not impossible and may be more likely than we have been lead to believe.

So, I guess on that note, I don't have very much more to say.

 

[adder]

No because new research has shown that morphine is not responsible for codeine's analgesic effect in this link.

I've seen this ages ago and it doesn't prove morphine plays NO ROLE in analgesia after codeine intake. It only proves morphine isn't the only drug that causes analgesia.

Anyway, my comparison was just to show how simplifications are bad because both heroin's and codeine's active metabolite is not only morphine. 6-MAM is even more potent than heroin itself and despite the fact it gets metabolized to morphine - it's obvious such acyl groups are easily removed and for a good reason, to make a compound less lipophilic - but 6-MAM stays in detected in urine for at least 24 hours, it's been proven it binds to opioid receptors and that it acts at them as an agonist so it's a proof it provides analgesia on its own.

See the 2 acetyl groups break off and 'propel' morphine to the brain quicker than morphine would on its own. Other than the 2 acetyl groups (red), they are identical.

You could draw codeine and morphine aside showing that it's only one methyl group making them different and this group gets removed during metabolism because -OH is more preferable for the body than -OCH3 so it can get rid of the substance easier from the system.

Also, there are numerous esters of morphine that could be treated in the same way and more drugs not being morphine esters.

 

[kokaino]

I've seen this ages ago and it doesn't prove morphine plays NO ROLE in analgesia after codeine intake. It only proves morphine isn't the only drug that causes analgesia.

Anyway, my comparison was just to show how simplifications are bad because both heroin's and codeine's active metabolite is not only morphine. 6-MAM is even more potent than heroin itself and despite the fact it gets metabolized to morphine - it's obvious such acyl groups are easily removed and for a good reason, to make a compound less lipophilic - but 6-MAM stays in detected in urine for at least 24 hours, it's been proven it binds to opioid receptors and that it acts at them as an agonist so it's a proof it provides analgesia on its own.



You could draw codeine and morphine aside showing that it's only one methyl group making them different and this group gets removed during metabolism because -OH is more preferable for the body than -OCH3 so it can get rid of the substance easier from the system.

Also, there are numerous esters of morphine that could be treated in the same way and more drugs not being morphine esters.

Whatever way you look at it, when you take heroin - morphine provides the subjective high. It has been known as a morphine prodrug for since it was invented. Your opinion is not going to change that.