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How toxic is Mephedrone?

vecktor said:
my instinct is yellow blue green brown whatever, the principle toxic component is the mephedrone itself or more likely its metabolite.
people are clutching at straws with all this batch discussion and color debate, the drug itself has immediate toxic side effects in some people some of the time, and if it is anything like ephedrine or methcathinone I expect it to be associated with increased incidence of cardiac damage as well as renal problems and aneurisms in anyone who uses it regularly for an extended period of time.
I guess we have to wait and see now.
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Possibly, but if turns out only the yellow batch causes those problems it would have been very stupid not to rule this out from the beginning.
But yeah, more research has to be done, for now i'm still thinking low doses are safe.
 
^ The delayed symptoms indicate that it's a metabolite and as vecktor said, it had chance to be nasty effects from 4-methylephedrine (or 4-methylnorephedrine); seeing the side effects from ephedrine are nasty, the 4-methyl version had chance to be even nastier (that's from comparing amphetamine with 4-methylampnetamine))

for now i'm still thinking low doses are safe.
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But low doses are in the realms of Never Never Land seeing the compulsion to redose with it...
 
fastandbulbous said:
^ The delayed symptoms indicate that it's a metabolite and as vecktor said, it had chance to be nasty effects from 4-methylephedrine (or 4-methylnorephedrine); seeing the side effects from ephedrine are nasty, the 4-methyl version had chance to be even nastier (that's from comparing amphetamine with 4-methylampnetamine))



But low doses are in the realms of Never Never Land seeing the compulsion to redose with it...
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Allright thank you for clearing that out.

Yeah i know its hard to resist, but my personal solution is to throw in amphetamine at the end of the night, i want to be high again not take mephedrone per se.
 
Vecktor, you mention using a lot of mephedrone for extended periods likely leading to increased risk of renal failure etc. Do you think that it would be better for someone to use a small amount (although relatively large for single doses, say 4 grams over 3 days) in a short period of time (few days) and get the purple knees etc, or for someone to use average amounts (say 100 or 200 mg) fairly regularly for months?

Pretty much what I am asking, is what is your guess at what 'extended' and 'regular' use will entail in the context of mephedrone causing heart/kidney/etc problems? And also, do you think people who used enough to get purple knees and such are definitely at serious risk of developing these issues, no matter how much they used? What do you suggest we do? I have been to doctor and they all think I am fine, although I am planning to get ECG (to check for heart problems) and creatine blood tests (to check for dermatomyotisis). If these tests come up normal does it prove anything, or are you suggesting it could take years before the issues that would be detected on for example an ecg would show up?

I am hoping I did not put myself at increased risk of renal problems or aneurysm after using it for three days and developing severe symptoms (that are continuing to fade by the the way). Maybe I got lucky to get negative effects and stop using it rather than use it for months with no negatives and then get renal failure? Or is it more likely people using average doses long term but not getting immediate symptoms are going to end up better off than me?

Do you think it is much worse than ephedrine as far as the long term consequences?

Another thing to note. Someone I know washed mephedrone and it left brown stuff in the liquid. This was from a white batch, the brown stuff didn't show up until it was washed and recrystalized. After doing this once, it did not rinse out brown in the future, but stayed white. So it seems the white batch has some impurity in it also. We might be able to get it GC/MSed.

BTW, I got my negative effects from the white batch. The different batches have ALL caused the negative severe effects. PEople are MAJOR grasping at straws with this shit. Face the reality that this drug is fucking awful for you in almost all certainty. I have never seen a drug this justified before, even heroin and meth users admit its bad for them, holy shit. But nope, mephedrone is the fucking wonder drug right and everyone with negative effects it is all in their head or due to an impurity in the batch. People treat mephedrone like its their fucking girlfriend and people saying its bad for you are disrespecting their girls.

my advice: DO NOT TOUCH THIS SHIT. There are so many better drugs! Using mephedrone, you might get purple knees and feel like shit for poisoning yourself. I feel like total fucking shit knowing I used something that has caused me some serious problems. Even after getting mostly better I am fucking terrified I have caused serious damage to myself that will show up in a year or five or ten. I will never fucking know what I have done to myself. With most research chemicals I don't regret taking them. 2c-t-2, etc, all are research chemicals but they have been around for tens of years and caused effects not like mephedrone. With most drugs I feel fine after using them and I know that i will likely either get immediate negative effects or likely no long terms if I don't use much. Mephedrone CAN cause you SERIOUS negative effects you WILL regret and be STUCK with for MONTHS not knowing what the fuck happened. Even if you get NO immediate negative effects there is a HIGH chance you are slowly poisoning yourself with this shit. Don't listen to the people who preach about how safe mephedrone is or how it is all in peoples heads. They are fucking addicted to it and justifying the fact that they are poisoning themselves by trying to convince themselves they are not in public forums, unfortunately leading to people thinking that this drug is in any way safe. I hate to sound like a fucking anti-drug person, but mephedrone is fucking shit. You will regret using it. Be it the day you use it, or ten years down the road. Don't buy into this drugs hype. it isnt worth it at all.

If mephedrone does indeed cause heart failure or kidney failure years after use, wow its going to be fucking awful, this drug must have been used by around a million people by now. I read in a news article that over 10 kilos a month are used in single countries in europe, and I believe it. Although I also read a news article that called it synthetic crack, lol.
 
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fastandbulbous said:
Seeing the incidence of distressing side effects in the short term, the possibility of nasty long term effects looks more & more likely. Seems thepeople sayinmg "stop with the doom & gloom about mephedrone" aren't replying in this thread - possibly they don't want to read about the side effects in detail...
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More than happy to reply when something other than anecdotal and happening to more than a minute percentage occurs.
 
^Just whast exactly do you require before accepting that it's dodgy stuff?

and happening to more than a minute percentage occurs.
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How community minded of you. That's just the number reported on BL; extend that to the total number of users out there and you've got something that would get a pharmaceutical drug pulled so fast it would make your head spin. I'm hard pushed to think of another drug of abuse that'sd gained widespread acceptance that has the same number & severity of side effects as mephedrone. If you can't see that, then it seems you're living in denial to justify your use of the drug
 
for what its worth, I know of a case that was never reported on the internet, of someone who used multiple grams in one week and had his hands swell up and become infected. I imagine there are a significant amount of negative reactions that are not reported online.
 
Exactly Fastandbulbous - A pharmaceutical candidate cannot be approved until there has been a demonstration of no acute or chronic toxicity in 2 animal species (1 rodent and 1 non-rodent) for 6 and 9 months, respectively, after daily dosing. It varies but generally at least 12 months of daily dosing human data is required. So even with the reports on mephedrone being anecdotal in nature, mephedrone is not a safe drug (already shows acute tox. and likely chronic problems down the road). The majority of people that use it once or twice will be fine but beyond that it is scary. Many people use MDMA (the closest comparable) from their mid-teens until late into their 30's. Who do we blame? The government and scumbags who cut E pills or sell piperazines and meph makers looking for a quick buck. My advice is to avoid mephedrone and find some MDMA, MDA, Methylone, alpha-ethyltryptamine or 4-fluoroamphetamine for use in moderation.
 
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The important thing to keep in mind here is not necessarily the effect after a single dose, regardless of the amount of that dose, but the cumulative effect of multiple doses of meph on its own and, especially!, when combined with other substances. On their own, those other substances may not have a lasting or signifficant ill effect. Meph, however, is an immunosuppressant. As such, where you would not have suffered an ill effect from another substance before, once your body's defences have been compromised by meph, you may now see ill effects compounded, exponentially. What you may end up dealing with, in the end, is a recovery process not for meph, per se, but for any number of other substances which you may have consumed before, during, or after your meph consumption.

If you're consuming other substances, either before, during or after meph, then think of it as if you're consuming ten times the amount of those other substances, in terms of toxic residuals in your system. Not the "high effects", but toxic residue. There's a difference. So, for instance, if you're having a double shot of vodka after having some meph (a couple of days ago even), picture your liver under the stress of having twenty shots of vodka instead and imagine the relief and recovery you'd need to give it after such a stress. Same with other substances.

A quick appeal to members and mods here, if I may, please. The "idiots" and "retards" references about users and possibly abusers of meph is not helpful. Not on a board like Bluelight. The best path to harm reduction is not going to be paved with derision. No, those types of cobblestones won't stick; that path will not be chosen and travelled by those whom you wish to teach. The education on the chemical breakdown of meph has been phenomenal here. Time to take the lead in simple-language education about the possible harmful effects of this substance. Repetition, properly grouped reference material of experiences, so on. Not sure what the winning formula will be here, but the way to get there wouldn't be through name calling. Just my opinion.

Ill effects: if you notice skin changes, I would quit using all substances immediately! Urticaria, discolouration, sensory differences are all urgent signs that either your cardio, circulatory, liver and/or immune functions are critically compromised (short or long term). I would see a doctor for immediate check up, but be careful if they prescribe anything, because those prescriptions may compound the problem and create a host of other problems, now that your system has already been compromised. Seriously look into detoxifying your body in a natural way - lots of natural juice, lots of water, lots of other natural ways out there. Don't even think of exposing your body to anything toxic again until you've fully recovered.

If you're on SSRI antidepressants, I would think doubly carefully about going anywhere near meph.

I don't think I've ever cautioned, publicly, on the use of any substance before. This stuff, however, is cunning. It's like a trojan, where it may not do the harm itself, but will compromise your defences enough for any and all other substances to pose cumulative harm.

Stay safe!
 
SA said:
The important thing to keep in mind here is not necessarily the effect after a single dose, regardless of the amount of that dose, but the cumulative effect of multiple doses of meph on its own and, especially!, when combined with other substances. On their own, those other substances may not have a lasting or signifficant ill effect. Meph, however, is an immunosuppressant. As such, where you would not have suffered an ill effect from another substance before, once your body's defences have been compromised by meph, you may now see ill effects compounded, exponentially. What you may end up dealing with, in the end, is a recovery process not for meph, per se, but for any number of other substances which you may have consumed before, during, or after your meph consumption.

If you're consuming other substances, either before, during or after meph, then think of it as if you're consuming ten times the amount of those other substances, in terms of toxic residuals in your system. Not the "high effects", but toxic residue. There's a difference. So, for instance, if you're having a double shot of vodka after having some meph (a couple of days ago even), picture your liver under the stress of having twenty shots of vodka instead and imagine the relief and recovery you'd need to give it after such a stress. Same with other substances.

A quick appeal to members and mods here, if I may, please. The "idiots" and "retards" references about users and possibly abusers of meph is not helpful. Not on a board like Bluelight. The best path to harm reduction is not going to be paved with derision. No, those types of cobblestones won't stick; that path will not be chosen and travelled by those whom you wish to teach. The education on the chemical breakdown of meph has been phenomenal here. Time to take the lead in simple-language education about the possible harmful effects of this substance. Repetition, properly grouped reference material of experiences, so on. Not sure what the winning formula will be here, but the way to get there wouldn't be through name calling. Just my opinion.

Ill effects: if you notice skin changes, I would quit using all substances immediately! Urticaria, discolouration, sensory differences are all urgent signs that either your cardio, circulatory, liver and/or immune functions are critically compromised (short or long term). I would see a doctor for immediate check up, but be careful if they prescribe anything, because those prescriptions may compound the problem and create a host of other problems, now that your system has already been compromised. Seriously look into detoxifying your body in a natural way - lots of natural juice, lots of water, lots of other natural ways out there. Don't even think of exposing your body to anything toxic again until you've fully recovered.

If you're on SSRI antidepressants, I would think doubly carefully about going anywhere near meph.

I don't think I've ever cautioned, publicly, on the use of any substance before. This stuff, however, is cunning. It's like a trojan, where it may not do the harm itself, but will compromise your defences enough for any and all other substances to pose cumulative harm.

Stay safe!
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How would viagra work to counteract the vasoconstriction?
 
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A quick appeal to members and mods here, if I may, please. The "idiots" and "retards" references about users and possibly abusers of meph is not helpful.
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True. I end up using that sort of language due to the exasperation at the people who start with the "stop knocking meph & let me enjoy it" sort of rhetoric in an attempt to get through to people who might be reading it and thinking "well it seems people are being too cautious about this stuff". If they want to be in denial, there's little I can do, but stop trying to convince others that meph is a safe/inconsequential to health high; it's not and the evidence for such is building (by one BLers posts, all reports of adverse effects are anecdotal, but that would also apply to reportsd submitted about pharmaceutical drugs side effects. If people report cardiovascular side effects of a nasty nature, you can't just ignore what they're saying, especially when several others have reported exactly the same sort of experiences
 
In this context, I have one question:
What's Bluelight's general policy toward spreading false propaganda, e.g. deliberately wrong posts etc.?

I mean, this thread has grown now to 12 pages (!), offering an overwhelming wealth of information on the dangers of mephedrone and related substances, provided by wise and knowledgable folks, but still people are denying the facts and keep on spreading plain bullshit. Why is this tolerated? I don't call for censorship, but for commonsense.

- Murphy
 
SA said:
If you're consuming other substances, either before, during or after meph, then think of it as if you're consuming ten times the amount of those other substances, in terms of toxic residuals in your system. Not the "high effects", but toxic residue.
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Care to explain why a bit more?

Have done Meph and then Ket later/during a fair few times. I'm worried about the effects especially since Ket is notoriously bad for you anyway.

Have not done Ket in a couple of months now though and don't plan to ever go back... and the same with Meph after reading this.

I began to realise I've hammered the Ket for too long and don't want to end up with any long-term damage to myself. But with Meph it's mainly down to the fact I'm getting semi-decent pills at the moment so I don't need it as an "alternative" which is why I first started doing it.

My 2 cents re:toxicity:

Definitely noticed *something* going on with the heart (slight twinges etc.) but nothing I ever really got freaked out about. Never got blue knuckles or knees but I did think that the veins in my arms/hands seemed a lot darker and more prominent after a couple of months use. Often got breathless very easily afterwards as well, even walking up a set of stairs for example. Not good.
 
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MurphyClox said:
I mean, this thread has grown now to 12 pages (!), offering an overwhelming wealth of information on the dangers of mephedrone and related substances, provided by wise and knowledgable folks, but still people are denying the facts and keep on spreading plain bullshit. Why is this tolerated? I don't call for censorship, but for commonsense.
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i think for the attentive reader forming an opinion on whether to use mephedrone or not this fact speaks volumes. that is plain hard-core addiction at work. to me, what you just described is actually the scariest side effect of them all.
 
ManRider said:
The cases of purple knees and other similar side effects are very worrisome, but it seems that for every incident like this there are at least 100 incidents of people going on multi-gram binges without dangerous side effects. Could it be more accurate that a small minority of people are vulnerable to such dangerous effects due to whatever factor in their biochemistry while the large majority of people will receive no worse than typical stimulant after effects?
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TBH the amounts I was doing before I knocked it on the head were so huge that if I'd done comparable amounts of MDMA or even speed I'd have probably died, almost for certain. I don't want to say how much as even the people on a certain other drug forum said I was a bit of a mentalist for it and they're all total caners.

For me personally, it felt no worse than any other stimulant, probably better due to the amounts I did. I'm talking just physically here.

BUT it is HIGHLY addictive, the most addictive thing I've tried, including coke, crack or opiates (never done smack but have used codeine a couple of times from OTC pills and tbh never found it at all moreish).

And it makes me into a bit of an awful perv as well. So that's another reason to avoid it.
 
Boffhead said:
Care to explain why a bit more?
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I was just using some figurative maths, B. One single measure of toxin-A could impart X-amount of damage on a vulnerable body, whereas it would have taken several doses (and possibly repeated administrations) of the same toxin to impart that same amount of damage on a healthier body. Ozone layer protection analogy. Tooth enamel protection layer analogy. The presence or lack thereof, that is.

Sorry about resorting to the use of analogies. I'm trying to refrain from using the SWIM, AFOAF, my uncle's monkey, or my pet Peruvian Pigmy goat narratives as anecdotal evidence. :) (I may add those at a later date)
 
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