Bupe Suboxone/Buprenorphine FAQ and Megathread v.1; 2007 - 2010

[KibelsNBits]

I have been thinking about plugging it (ugh), but I don't have a script so I'm not doing it THAT MUCH. Its just if I'm iving 2mgs to feel fine then I have to snort 4 or sub 6 and I just can't stand the fucking taste. I'm positive I wouldn't be able to sub 6mgs because I'd end up vomitting or spitting it out from that foul taste. Thinking of snorting the shit anymore almost makes me vomit and thats just the thought. Regardless I feel dirty as hell when I IV that orange liquid and don't recommend it. I'm looking forward to these easy to dissolve strips someone mentioned, but hopefully I'm detoxed by then. Thanks for the help .

Also there is of course the psych involved in long term IV drug abuse. I wouldn't say needle fixation but I sure do love to IV...

 

[ashla]

i am the same way with sub, i can not keep it under my tongue because i throw up and if i snort and i snort to hard and it drips i throw up, so most of the time i do plug, you have to sometimes take breaks from this but i do believe it is much healthier than shooting it, i also feel like you get more of a good feeling from plugging it. it is kind of weird i dont know if it is in my head but when i snort it i almost get speedy from it when i plug i dont get that mmm maybe i am just a weirdo lol

 

[morphonorconic]

I considered starting a new thread for this topic, but I figured it would fit nicely into the Bupe/Sub Mega Thread. This is just something I've been pondering that I thought might spark some ideas/opinions:

I understand exactly what Suboxone is used for, and I, like many others, consider it to be a great asset to us all. So my question is to be taken at face value: What is the point to Suboxone? Buprenorphine with the addition of Naloxone, if the Naloxone is inactive via any ROA? And any precipitated withdrawl or other adverse effects induced upon a (tolerant) user would essentially always be due to the (Partial Agonist) Buprenorphine?

Now, I understand there is a lot of money to be made, and having two patents on what is fundamentally the same drug will only serve to double a company's profits, ie Reckitt Benckiser, but is this and the perceived benefit of having the presence of Naloxone as a scare tactic the only reason(s) why, in the US at least, Suboxone is highly favored over Subutex?

Also, I am aware that Subutex is favored by users due to it's ability to be IV'ed without the "Naloxone blocking the high," even though this is not the case that the Antagonist Naloxone even has a high enough affinity to overcome Bupe in the competition for receptors. So I ask again, why Suboxone and not just Subutex, or plain Buprenorphine, when they are effectively the same drug?

So I wanted to bring this back up, as it (unfortunately) did not spark very much discussion, though I do understand that most of us are in agreement as far as my points here are concerned. And if we are not in agreement, well, please post your thoughts!

I have been wondering about a couple of things lately in regards to Buprenorphine and it's two available formulations; (not including Temgesic) I want to know from those who have taken or at least tried both Buprenorphine preperations, Subutex and Suboxone, if there is any perceived/noticable difference between the two, and if there is, what might that difference be, IYE? Because as far as I can gather, there is NO difference between Subutex and Suboxone via any ROA, sans the presence of Naloxone, and that the two share an identical (side effect) profile. And finally, that Suboxone is just as likely to be abused as Subutex. However, if I am incorrect in any of my statements/assumptions, please share your thoughts.

My second question is more just a thought: Why the hell do they (Reckitt-Benckiser) not make a 4mg tablet?

 

[Emily]

suboxone not helping heroin withdrawal at all anymore!

I've been on suboxone for 10 months prior to my month long relapse on heroin. I was shooting about half a gram a day. I quit yesterday and I as soon as I got sick I took some suboxone and it didn't do anything! I still have the jimmy legs and am sweating like crazy! What gives? I was on 4-6mg of suboxone a day before the relapse. Is there anything I can do?

 

[SZodiac]

Nope it's way too soon for them too help you sorry to say. You need to "go through it" for at least 48-60 hrs before they begin to help and even then it's always taken 3 days before they did anything for me.

 

[Emily]

fuck!

 

[Fix8Sed8Hallucin8]

Yeah I think Szodiac is right; whenever I admitted myself to inpatient so I could detox (it's a lot easier when you can't go and comp dope and make it all better), they started giving me Suboxone on the third day. This pissed me off quite a bit cos I thought I went through 3 days of WD's for nothing, but I think that's what they're supposed to do.

 

[Tchort]

How much Buprenorphine have you taken?

There is no reason to wait 3 days before taking Buprenorphine; unless you were using a long half life opioid / opioid with a metabolite with a long halflife (Methadone, Propoxyphene, etc).

As soon as acute withdrawal syndrome begins (restless legs, general discomfort, sweating, running eyes and nose, etc) it is safe to dose.

You may require a larger dose of Buprenorphine than you used to.

 

[Eight0Eight]

Yeah, You just need to keep re-dosing the Sub in small increments (I always do 2mg) every couple hours 'till you feel OK.

You need to understand that sub will not make you feel 100% the first couple days - but you also won't have any real nasty WD ducring this period either.

I always use H on top when switching for the first day. That way you don't feel high - but your not clucking either.

Also, eating a good meal and going for a good walk helps a lot. I find it makes me sleep when I get back.

Just try and concentrate on your family/loved ones during this period - once your through the first 2 days its easy - its certainly A LOT better than normal WD anyhow!

All the best,

808

 

[bagochina]

I think your dose is too low. If you were taking 4-6mg for 10 months and than slipped and used dope for a month straight at a half gram per day your dose most likely will not rubberband to what you were taking right off the bat. I would increase the dosage untill your comfortablish than once stable cut the dosage back until you feel that the amount is beneficial in function.

Peace,
Seedless

 

[mebroken]

well 5 days of IV bupe (low dose shot 4 times a day) and i *think* i'm past the opiate w/d. finished the last of the little bit of bupe this morning. waiting for the other shoe to drop, this was too easy.....

btw, liquid bupe is very commonly used in vet med. much nicer than the pills given us lowly humans.

hey, me again. (i know quoting yourself is a bit ridiculous, but just keeping the train of thought together).

okay after running out of the liquid bupe after 5 days, yeah the other shoe dropped but was more like a pair of k-mart flip flops than army boots. couple of days of not too bad w/d's. nothing compared to some of the kicks in my past.

i highly recommend the liquid bupe if you can get your hands on it. i'm actually pretty amazed at how well it worked. even only used trazadone to sleep the first 2 days on bupe. far better than the pills (i took those orally years ago after doing one of those ultra rapid detoxes~btw, don't ever do those8)).

the liquid is way cleaner, if that makes sense. totally the way to go to break a moderate opiate habit. (hopefully will never ever have a mad extreme habit to break ever again to report on if it works for that, someone else do the research, k?)

 

[Deveel]

Just got on it 4 weeks ago. I take 8mg in the morning and 8mg at night.

NO cravings at all. Is there any way to get high off suboxone? Like if I mix it with xanax?

 

[Tchort]

So I wanted to bring this back up, as it (unfortunately) did not spark very much discussion, though I do understand that most of us are in agreement as far as my points here are concerned. And if we are not in agreement, well, please post your thoughts!

I have been wondering about a couple of things lately in regards to Buprenorphine and it's two available formulations; (not including Temgesic) I want to know from those who have taken or at least tried both Buprenorphine preperations, Subutex and Suboxone, if there is any perceived/noticable difference between the two, and if there is, what might that difference be, IYE? Because as far as I can gather, there is NO difference between Subutex and Suboxone via any ROA, sans the presence of Naloxone, and that the two share an identical (side effect) profile. And finally, that Suboxone is just as likely to be abused as Subutex. However, if I am incorrect in any of my statements/assumptions, please share your thoughts.

My second question is more just a thought: Why the hell do they (Reckitt-Benckiser) not make a 4mg tablet?

From the Reckitt-Benckiser website for Suboxone (suboxone.com):

The naloxone in SUBOXONE is there to discourage people from dissolving the tablet and injecting it.

The entire purpose of putting Naloxone in Suboxone is to discourage people from crushing the tablet, mixing it with water and injecting it. It is not in the tablet to do anything but discourage injection. Literally.

I have not seen any evidence that the Naloxone causes any effect under any circumstances when Suboxone is taken orally, sublingually, intravenously, intranasally, rectally, vaginally. I believe it is just junkie lore and myth that the Naloxone in Suboxone 'dulls' or 'blunts' the rush or high from injected Suboxone. Addicts are prone to myths and exaggerations, like Methadone rots your teeth, Methadone is harder to kick than Heroin, 'Raw' Heroin doesn't have cuts, etc.

Addicts associate Naloxone with Narcan, precipitated withdrawal- so its very presence deters people from injecting it- even people who know that Buprenorphine has a higher affinity for mu receptors- so it is a valuable deterrant.

Plus, I doubt Subutex alone would have had as much popularity on the American market. I doubt that DATA2000 would have been passed without such an alternative as Suboxone which assured the rightwing religious sects involved in addiction treatment who lobby against any and all forms of Opiate Replacement Therapy.

And why would they need a 4mg tablet? That doesn't make any sense. Low dose patients often use multiple 2mg tablets, or you can break up 8mg tablets.

 

[Tchort]

The oral bioavailability of buprenorphine
is approximately 10%, secondary to extensive
first-pass hepatic metabolism

http://www.wsam.org/files/BupPainRolly.pdf

Buprenorphine is indeed absorbed orally. It will work exactly the same as if it were taken through any other RoA: it doesn't matter if you snort it, IV it, plug it or eat it, Buprenorphine is being consumed by you and will act as such.

The only difference is how efficiently the body can use the amount of Buprenorphine you consume.

So 2mg oral Buprenorphine would be equal to a 0.2mg IV shot of Buprenorphine; which is enough to block other opioids.

 

[lenses]

I thought that the naloxone would have some effect in Suboxone to stop the feeling of any initial rush, and when IV'd , the effects are NOT immediate. The naloxone would slow or stop the initial binding to the receptors , and as the naloxone wore off, the bupe would kick in...

Does anyone notice a difference IV'd with Suboxone vs. Subutex?

-lenses

 

[lenses]

Hmm... With a small dose like 2mgs sometimes it metabolizes quickly enough that if I dose in the morning, I can use at night... I just wait until my WD symptoms come back, and then use.

I would just wait until tomorrow morning. You will most likely still be wasting your OC, or have pretty dimished effects.

This is from a lot of trial and error with bupe... i've played this game a lot.

-lenses

 

[morphonorconic]

And why would they need a 4mg tablet? That doesn't make any sense. Low dose patients often use multiple 2mg tablets, or you can break up 8mg tablets.

Why not? You wouldn't only manufacture 20 and 80 milligram Oxycodone tablets, or 2 and 8 milligram Hydromorphone, would you? So why Buprenorphine, when it seems like plenty of people take 4mg a day, or two 4mg doses at different times, and don't want to split the pills apart. It seems that just about any other medication that requires careful titration like Bupe offers a broader range of dose options, so to speak. And why nothing less than 2mg tablets?(again excluding Temgesic) Bupe is an undeniably powerful and potent Opioid, with effective doses being as low as 0.1mg, perhaps possibly even less. So why no 1mg, 0.5mg, etc. Why make patients who use the drug(s) taper down by breaking these tablets into 1/8 or 1/16 doses, which are little more than crumbles. It ain't easy dividing out 0.5-0.25mg doses from an 8mg Suboxone tablet. That doesn't make any sense.

 

[phr]

Merged.
I think the discussion of bupe od's and how naloxone affects them would interest the general viewers of this faq thread.

 

[Jabberwocky]

merged emily's post

 

[ashevillechic]

Caterva- I'm new but I will tell you what my Doc said ( I have a job that CAN NOT EVEN THINK I'VE EVER HAD ANY KIND OF PROBLEM) He said unless I signed a form giving permission for whoever to see my records It could NOT be seen..the new privacy act or whatever...Now as for cost I pd 250.00 to see him, and my meds 2day for 2 weeks was 987.00. Of course this was for 120 of the 8 mgs because he seems to think I need 16 of the 8's a day-I use maybe 4mgs a day. A very helpfull person on here told me that was way to much so I started tapering...Its easier than the methadone.