Harm Reduction Mitragyna speciosa (kratom)

[Mycophile]

I'm honestly jealous of people who report such strong effects from kratom. It does help to reduce opiate cravings but it's an extremely mild and short lived high for me even if I take like 10g. And to give a frame of reference, I can take 200mg codeine and it will feel much stronger than 10g kratom, so it's not like I have a sky high tolerance over here.

I usually get red strains for the calming effect but I also have tried green, white, and mixes. Some strains are stronger than others but even the strongest kratom I've had is about the same level as codeine.

Extracts obviously provide the strongest high, and I'd put the extracts at somewhere between codeine and morphine, but regular old kratom powder is weak as shit in my experience.

Probably the reason i get more kratom effects than you is because with the exceptions of the 5 surgeries i had where i jacket up my knees, wrist and neck from doing brazilian jiu-jitsu, i have otherwise never used opioids harder than kratom.

Sure, those times i did several times use high enough doses of oxy or hydro to get enjoyment but only for such short periods of time and then purposely did not ever seek them out on the street cause i know how bad that can be and i never will.

Other than that, i've only used kratom extracts and codeine a few times and all of my opioid experience other than that is from plain leaf kratom so that is probably why i never built the tolerance you have, and yet STILL, my kratom euphoria is nothing like it used to be when i started years ago and i will usually need 12 grams or so for a good high, but then it often isn't as good as i want and if i go higher it won't feel any better, BUT, i still get plenty of enjoyment out of it.

That being said, i've been off it for 8 days and i'm going on naltrexone tomorrow to help me to take a long break from both alcohol and kratom cause i need it.

I mean, i don't believe kratom is that bad for you, but it kills my drive to exercise and do certain things i need to do, and alcohol is obviously not the healthiest, and i need a long break and with how hard it is for me to moderate i can't think of a more effective way than a drug that stops me if i choose to take it, and then if i want to be able to drink or use kratom i can just stop and go back on, but i still plan on making it a good long while sober.

 

[Mycophile]

I actually wanted to clarify that kratom effects are pretty consistent for me in the fact that I always feel it but in comparison to something like oxycodone, it is relatively weaker and feels like half what oxy does for the brain. I can tell there's just something lacking in the composition that makes it less "whoah" like when oxy or heroin hits the brain, but the euphoria from kratom can be just as strong--however I find kratom to be less pleasurable in general.

But something like 1/20 batches, I'll take half my normal dose and feel it incredibly intensely. There have been definitely some bags that have felt just as good as oxycodone or if even more.. but this is pretty rare. Some kratom batches just feel abnormally really dank. People find it to be a relatively weak painkiller but for some unexplainable reasons at this point I actually find it to be better for pain-relief qualities. This could be because my body is so adjusted to it after a year of daily use now that it requires it to not feel pain, but oxycodone actually lost any pain-relieving qualities for the most part. I can't tell if it does anything for physical pain at all, but kratom definitely dulls out the pain way better if I've got sore back stiffness or something like that. In fact if I don't take kratom at this point I'm helpless to random minor aches and pains all over my body. I'm not sure if this is from working out and suddenly I feel how that strains out my body or it's some form of withdrawal symptom from needing kratom.

@Mycophile I'm glad you feel fine after a week. That's good news for me. You still felt effects with the meds you're on?

Anyway... @aspiringchemist I feel like you would know the answer to this question. How do the opiate receptors in the brain work in terms of quantity of doses? For example, why do I benefit more from lower/moderate doses with opiates (kratom and stronger things)? For example, if I take a lot of kratom or opioids beyond my tolerance it's like my body can't process it properly and it's a complete waste of expensive material. In some ways I feel the effects more pronounced but the pleasure aspect is less than the buzz of a slightly less substantial dose. It's like that saying less is more when it comes to opiates for me. Maybe my receptors can't process the larger amounts of higher doses when they're not adjusted to it? That's why I'm a little bit not understanding of overdoses when it comes to people pushing recreational use to the maximum. It actually feels less enjoyable to have the mindset of "let's see how high I can get."

But then something like heroin seems to be totally it's own world. People constantly push it past the limit even when they're struggling with shallow breathing and etc because the effects seem to never have a pleasure ceiling cap and taking more and more seems to be worth it in the user's mind. Maybe something about heroin's composition is just unique in regards to kratom and opioids. But I'm just asking these questions because I can't tell if I'm the only one with a pleasure threshold like this. I'm not asking these questions to encourage myself on how to get higher by the way. I've just noticed with other substances besides opiates like stimulants I don't have the same dilemma.

Which meds are you talking about?

You mean that i take klonopin and lexapro and sometimes dexadrine?

Yeah, those don't interfere with kratom for me, but i'm gonna be stopping for a long time now and starting the naltrexone tomorrow so i hope it works out well.

I'm glad that it's by choice and i can use kratom or drink again if i want to by stopping the naltrexone, but the plan is to go longer than i ever have before and not go back to as much drinking or kratom as i do now

 

[Wilson Wilson]

Probably the reason i get more kratom effects than you is because with the exceptions of the 5 surgeries i had where i jacket up my knees, wrist and neck from doing brazilian jiu-jitsu, i have otherwise never used opioids harder than kratom.

Sure, those times i did several times use high enough doses of oxy or hydro to get enjoyment but only for such short periods of time and then purposely did not ever seek them out on the street cause i know how bad that can be and i never will.

Other than that, i've only used kratom extracts and codeine a few times and all of my opioid experience other than that is from plain leaf kratom so that is probably why i never built the tolerance you have, and yet STILL, my kratom euphoria is nothing like it used to be when i started years ago and i will usually need 12 grams or so for a good high, but then it often isn't as good as i want and if i go higher it won't feel any better, BUT, i still get plenty of enjoyment out of it.

That being said, i've been off it for 8 days and i'm going on naltrexone tomorrow to help me to take a long break from both alcohol and kratom cause i need it.

I mean, i don't believe kratom is that bad for you, but it kills my drive to exercise and do certain things i need to do, and alcohol is obviously not the healthiest, and i need a long break and with how hard it is for me to moderate i can't think of a more effective way than a drug that stops me if i choose to take it, and then if i want to be able to drink or use kratom i can just stop and go back on, but i still plan on making it a good long while sober.

I think this is a part of it, but things get a little more interesting.

The first time I did kratom I was much more opiate naive, only having done codeine, DHC, and morphine a handful of times and never having tried oxy. I was using codeine here and there at the time but nothing stronger. The kratom hit me way harder back then.

Now even though my tolerance is low enough to enjoy codeine again, I still have that level of opiate perma-tolerance you get from my previous high dose use, so certain things will never feel as good for me again.

However, here is the one complicating factor in all of this. I first tried kratom when it was UK legal and got it from a UK based site. When I used it first time, me and my dad both took about 5 grams or so. My dad is into trying anything natural since he's a bit of a hippie, and most importantly he does not touch pharmas of any kind. Anyway me and him both got a proper strong high from that first kratom dose, and this was just regular kratom no extracts or "enhanced" anything.

Use after this was obviously never as strong as the first time, but it was still a much more notable effect.

Since the PSA passed back in 2016 I've been getting my kratom from abroad since that piece of legislation shut down all the UK vendors. So my sources have changed.

Now my new guys have very positive reviews, universally five stars, so they should be good. However since I found it to be weak I offered some to my dad to see what he thought. He also told me this stuff is much weaker and didn't give him anything near what he expected.

My experience could easily be explained by previous opiate use. Not my dad though. He hasn't used any other opis since those earlier kratom experiences pre-2016.

So either the kratom I'm getting now is a bit shit, or the kratom I got before was exceptionally good or maybe was actually "enhanced" with something or contained some sort of potent extract to set it apart from the competition. Who knows?

But again my current kratom source gets consistent five star reviews and what makes it even weirder is I have two mates who use kratom from there all the time and they tell me it's good stuff - that's why I started buying from them to begin with.

I might have to find yet another source to compare, but basically it comes down to this:

Me and my dad's first kratom experience was with that UK vendor which had strong stuff, I was using codeine pretty regularly at the time (but nothing stronger), my dad is basically opiate naive, we both got very strong legit narcotic level highs.

My mates only got into kratom after the ban so used this same source I use now. They've never had the strong stuff I used before. Without that frame of reference they tell me the kratom I am getting now is good shit.

All this leads me to believe that the kratom I used to get actually was just stronger. If it was down to my tolerance alone my dad would still get blasted off the stuff I get now.

 

[GetMeOutOfThisCRAP]

Which meds are you talking about?

You mean that i take klonopin and lexapro and sometimes dexadrine?

Yeah, those don't interfere with kratom for me, but i'm gonna be stopping for a long time now and starting the naltrexone tomorrow so i hope it works out well.

I'm glad that it's by choice and i can use kratom or drink again if i want to by stopping the naltrexone, but the plan is to go longer than i ever have before and not go back to as much drinking or kratom as i do now

I think once you're off it it may be easier to not make it a daily habit. It's pretty strange being able to take some and wake up the next day not kicking. The psychological aspect of worrying about withdrawals really never leaves you even if they don't happen anymore

 

[aspiringchemist]

I have taken up to a kilogram of plain leaf in my carry on multiple times. As long as you're flying to and from places where it is legal to possess kratom, there should be no issues.

I always left if it in it's original bag and put them all in a big plastic bag together. Put it through the scanner and everything. Hell, I TW'd 15g's sitting at an airline gate waiting for my flight lol.

Another thing on the varying potency of kratom is the season. I personally ontain consistent results and used to be a heavy opiate user, so idk, maybe I'm lucky...or is it the other way?

I am not sure which seasons are associated with producing stronger plants, but this is a thing I've read about and many people say "the rainy season" produces the best kratom.

Side note - I joined this moronic mainstream social media site the other day (already deleted it lol). This woman supposedly from Indonesia reached out to me claiming to be a kratom vendor and showed many pics of satisfied US customers. Intriguing...

I take diazepam and lisdexamphetamine daily with no kratom interference.

 

[aspiringchemist]

Haha, it's okay--thanks for attempting to answer. That's interesting, because a lot of people find it to do nothing to help their chronic pain when looking for an additional pain-killer and already on high dose opioids or something like that. There have been a couple of times where I've been on moderate dose opioids and not have had any alleviation in back pain. All the sudden I'll take a tiny bit of kratom and it goes away entirely. To me it does not feel like legitimate pain because I never have back pain, but more like a withdrawal symptom where many encounter during opiate withdrawal random aches and pains throughout their body. Either way opioids do nothing for physical pain or headaches at all for me at this point. Not like I need them to but just found it strange how I respond better to 8 grams of kratom drastically over something like 60mgs of oxycodone. I'm probably more dependent on the alkloids in kratom then since there are way more than I thought.

Btw... totally of topic but what would happen if I brought kratom with me onto an airline or something? Lollll

No problem! I think because the amount of active alkaloids is so low (1.5% and like. 02% respectively) it makes sense why so much powder must be ingested if you have a tolerance.

My guess about chronic pain patients and kratom not working is that the strong dose of opioids they are on is filling all the opioid binding sites so taking kratom either produces no effects or acting as a partial agonist could theoretically compete for binding, and perhaps knock some of the other opioid off the receptors. Both of those scenarios lead to a person not receiving good effects from kratom while on high dose opioids.

 

[GetMeOutOfThisCRAP]

Currently withdrawing from moderate dose opioid with kratom. Kratom is helping alleviate the physical symptoms so far but I still cannot stop sleeping for most of the day. Some nausea is persisting, minor headaches, anxiety, and an inability to experience fun. Some positives include feeling mentally sharper, more motivation to get things done, and my wiener feels more activated.

I was wondering about getting some phenibut. Anyone know how addicting or effective it is?

 

[Mycophile]

I think once you're off it it may be easier to not make it a daily habit. It's pretty strange being able to take some and wake up the next day not kicking. The psychological aspect of worrying about withdrawals really never leaves you even if they don't happen anymore

That's not really such a huge issue for me cause honestly even though I took kratom for the first time about 5 years ago I was SOO super strict for the first year or 2 of dosing I didn't experience withdrawals for the first time till I'd already been using kratom for like a year and a half and it didn't become a daily thing till 3 months ago.

Like, the first year I'd dose only 1-2 days a week and had never had withdrawal, the 2nd year i started sometimes dosing 3 days a week and then started to notice some wd, and then i actually stopped for like a year at one point, then when i went back to it another 2 years of so of dosing 3-4 days a week, sometimes having withdrawals and sometimes not, sometimes stopping for a few days till they went away or not getting them at all.

It was only around August that i finally said fuck it and started dosing every day.

So I was never believing, up until like 6 months ago, that i physically needed it on a daily basis.

 

[Mycophile]

Currently withdrawing from moderate dose opioid with kratom. Kratom is helping alleviate the physical symptoms so far but I still cannot stop sleeping for most of the day. Some nausea is persisting, minor headaches, anxiety, and an inability to experience fun. Some positives include feeling mentally sharper, more motivation to get things done, and my wiener feels more activated.

I was wondering about getting some phenibut. Anyone know how addicting or effective it is?

I like Phenibut but it's EXTREMELY addictive and you have to be very very careful with it.

I mean, it's a GABA drug just like benzos and alcohol.

It's very euphoric and i feel like it can help ease kratom wd for me but depending on what opioid you are having problems with, taking phenibut more than like 2 days a week is threatening giving yourself a worse problem.

The tub says never to exceed 4,000mgs a week, but i decided i'd be ok with 8,000 a week lol....and i've had 10,000 a week before, but i also take klonopin which would probably help with wds from it if i had them or prevent me knowing if i was in wd possibly.

My sweet spot is like 3,000mgs a dose but that's very high for many people who prefer like 1,500-2,500.

You really should generally not exceed the guidelines of 4,000mgs a week but obviously it can be possible, but there have been lots of threads on here about guys who got really addicted to it and ended up having HORRIBLE wds lasting for like over a week or maybe even weeks, sometimes including auditory hallcuinations and psychosis, anxiety, SEVERE insomnia lasting for days, and all kinds of insanely bad things you don't want to happen.

That being said, IF you trust yourself and have a healthy fear and respect for it like i do, you can pull off enjoying it like 2 days a week.

You just have to know that if you mess up it can get REALLY bad, and also tolerance builds FAST.

The few times I dosed more than twice in a week the 3rd or 4th time I could feel very little even at the same doses and wouldn't exceed them cause i knew that would be bad news.

So yeah, just be careful if you use it.

 

[Lizzy1Fair]

I've had batches of kratom that felt just as strong as oxy as if not stronger.

I think the majority of batches are garbage but occasionally some bags can whoop you on your ass lol. People think it's an incredibly weak opiate but sometimes it's a real drug.

OH hell yes. I agree with you that some batches are the shit and really take care of everything. No pain, have a nice energy and just a really high quality powder. Then there's others that do absolutly nothing for me. Weak. What I've noticed is that red vein, brown powdered kratom does the job and kills the pain. Green and white.. NOPE. The name of the strain means nothing and the actual color of the powder is everything .

 

[Mycophile]

I think this is a part of it, but things get a little more interesting.

The first time I did kratom I was much more opiate naive, only having done codeine, DHC, and morphine a handful of times and never having tried oxy. I was using codeine here and there at the time but nothing stronger. The kratom hit me way harder back then.

Now even though my tolerance is low enough to enjoy codeine again, I still have that level of opiate perma-tolerance you get from my previous high dose use, so certain things will never feel as good for me again.

However, here is the one complicating factor in all of this. I first tried kratom when it was UK legal and got it from a UK based site. When I used it first time, me and my dad both took about 5 grams or so. My dad is into trying anything natural since he's a bit of a hippie, and most importantly he does not touch pharmas of any kind. Anyway me and him both got a proper strong high from that first kratom dose, and this was just regular kratom no extracts or "enhanced" anything.

Use after this was obviously never as strong as the first time, but it was still a much more notable effect.

Since the PSA passed back in 2016 I've been getting my kratom from abroad since that piece of legislation shut down all the UK vendors. So my sources have changed.

Now my new guys have very positive reviews, universally five stars, so they should be good. However since I found it to be weak I offered some to my dad to see what he thought. He also told me this stuff is much weaker and didn't give him anything near what he expected.

My experience could easily be explained by previous opiate use. Not my dad though. He hasn't used any other opis since those earlier kratom experiences pre-2016.

So either the kratom I'm getting now is a bit shit, or the kratom I got before was exceptionally good or maybe was actually "enhanced" with something or contained some sort of potent extract to set it apart from the competition. Who knows?

But again my current kratom source gets consistent five star reviews and what makes it even weirder is I have two mates who use kratom from there all the time and they tell me it's good stuff - that's why I started buying from them to begin with.

I might have to find yet another source to compare, but basically it comes down to this:

Me and my dad's first kratom experience was with that UK vendor which had strong stuff, I was using codeine pretty regularly at the time (but nothing stronger), my dad is basically opiate naive, we both got very strong legit narcotic level highs.

My mates only got into kratom after the ban so used this same source I use now. They've never had the strong stuff I used before. Without that frame of reference they tell me the kratom I am getting now is good shit.

All this leads me to believe that the kratom I used to get actually was just stronger. If it was down to my tolerance alone my dad would still get blasted off the stuff I get now.

Yeah obviously kratom batches vary MASSIVELY based on types of strains and sub-types, vendors and personal biology.

It's really all over the place.

Not eating will also help you get a better high but i like to eat lol, so i usually wouldn't take it on an empty stomach.

I also have the perma tolerance where i stopped for 6 months and at first got higher than i used to off 12 grams on only 3, but then one day i took 6 grams and got SUPER high and after that nothing less than 10 grams would work and then i went back up to 12.

I guess that's what they call ''kindling''.

But now i'm taking naltrexone and the plan is not to use any alcohol or kratom for a long time, but if/when i do again i am guessing my opioid tolerance will be much lower again because that's something that naltrexone does.

 

[Mycophile]

OH hell yes. I agree with you that some batches are the shit and really take care of everything. No pain, have a nice energy and just a really high quality powder. Then there's others that do absolutly nothing for me. Weak. What I've noticed is that red vein, brown powdered kratom does the job and kills the pain. Green and white.. NOPE. The name of the strain means nothing and the actual color of the powder is everything .

I don't necessarily think it's the name or the color i think it's the vendor.

i mean, even some vendors have some good strains and some bad ones, but as many have said here before, strains are not usually consistent across vendor.

They'll name a strain anything and i don't even necessarily think they'll only call a strain that appears red in color a 'red' strain. I think one vendor's green malay could be another's white indo or another's red maeng da or whatever.

At this point it's the wild west and i think vendor's usually just give things names they think sound good.

Sure, I'm sure SOME vendors are legit with the name as far as where they got it and color, but it's just not like weed strains where you know you've got an indica or sativa or white rhino or purple haze or whatever, kratom as NOWHERE NEAR so consistent with strain.

I treat every strain as if i have no clue how it will feel till i take it.

i have noticed that currently one red strain i have is the strongest, but i still overall prefer greens.

I'm taking a long break now from all drugs, but yeah, kratom strains are just very unpredictable.

Every time someone says ''Red Maeng da'' or ''white bali'' or whatever ''is my favorite strain'' i feel like correcting them and saying ''NO....the ''red bali''/''white maeng da'' FROM VENDOR X is your favorite strain, and if you got something called that from someone else you might hate it.''

 

[GetMeOutOfThisCRAP]

OH hell yes. I agree with you that some batches are the shit and really take care of everything. No pain, have a nice energy and just a really high quality powder. Then there's others that do absolutly nothing for me. Weak. What I've noticed is that red vein, brown powdered kratom does the job and kills the pain. Green and white.. NOPE. The name of the strain means nothing and the actual color of the powder is everything .

You're not the first person I've seen mentioning red kratom! I need to try this. I'll probably order some online :0

PS. I've never found Benzos like Xanax or klonopin to be addicting.. probably because of how dysfunctional they make me so I can't take them on a busy day like other substances--which can improve my ability to function to a degree. Gabapentin is the most addicting "benzodiazepine," because I can actually function very well on it lol. I was only planning on using the phenibut for withdrawal... Not sure if it would be addictive for me though. I have no history of benzodiazepines abuse or gabapentin abuse either. Only opiates and stimulants are a problem here. Drugs that relieve anxiety are nice but my personality is sort of naturally benzo'd out. I have issues with drugs that are the polar opposite of benzos and stimulant my mind (opiates stimulate my mind with their euphoric properties).

 

[aspiringchemist]

Gabapentin is the most addicting "benzodiazepine," because I can actually function very well on it lol. I was only planning on using the phenibut for withdrawal... Not sure if it would be addictive for me though. I have no history of benzodiazepines abuse or gabapentin abuse either. Only opiates and stimulants are a problem here. Drugs that relieve anxiety are nice but my personality is sort of naturally benzo'd out. I have issues with drugs that are the polar opposite of benzos and stimulant my mind (opiates stimulate my mind with their euphoric properties).

Hey man, just wanted to clarify something from your post. Gabapentin is not benzodiazepine as it is not an agonist of the gaba a receptor site. Gabapentin belongs to the class of drugs known as "gabapentinoids" which includes gabapentin, pregabalin, and phenibut, amongst others though the ones mentioned are most often used.

To answer your question about phenibut, it is more comparable to gabapentin in effects than it is to benzodiazepines. Phenibut is a potent voltage gated calcium channel (VGCC) blocker (as is gabapentin) and gaba b receptor agonist. It is similar to the pharmaceutical drug baclofen, though not as potent of an agonist at the gaba b site.

I second the brick red kratom typically being potent. I have read this has something to do with a different drying method but I'm not positive on that. I also think vendor matters more than strain. I have recieved consisten and reliable kratom for 5 years. I've had a few bad ones, but many more good ones.

Over the years I have learned to recognize the color, smell, and taste of potent kratom. This is one of the reasons I TW or brew tea and do not attempt to mask the flavor, at least until I know it's good lol. At most I chase it with water but I love the numb tongue feeling after drinking the tea quickly. It's reminiscent of the numbing effects of cocaine imo. This also occurs with strong extracts taken sublingual or buccal.

I've had some good white strains. Especially white Borneo from a particular vendor. It's uplifting and painkilling simultaneously.

 

[Phoenix_rising]

I

I don't necessarily think it's the name or the color i think it's the vendor.

i mean, even some vendors have some good strains and some bad ones, but as many have said here before, strains are not usually consistent across vendor.

They'll name a strain anything and i don't even necessarily think they'll only call a strain that appears red in color a 'red' strain. I think one vendor's green malay could be another's white indo or another's red maeng da or whatever.

At this point it's the wild west and i think vendor's usually just give things names they think sound good.

Sure, I'm sure SOME vendors are legit with the name as far as where they got it and color, but it's just not like weed strains where you know you've got an indica or sativa or white rhino or purple haze or whatever, kratom as NOWHERE NEAR so consistent with strain.

I treat every strain as if i have no clue how it will feel till i take it.

i have noticed that currently one red strain i have is the strongest, but i still overall prefer greens.

I'm taking a long break now from all drugs, but yeah, kratom strains are just very unpredictable.

Every time someone says ''Red Maeng da'' or ''white bali'' or whatever ''is my favorite strain'' i feel like correcting them and saying ''NO....the ''red bali''/''white maeng da'' FROM VENDOR X is your favorite strain, and if you got something called that from someone else you might hate it.''

I find that if a vendor has a low turnover or if there's a certain strain people don't like,that its usually old stock and it loses potency. I think this has a lot to do with crap batches.

There are certain strains that are more potent and also certain growing conditions I.e next to a river or lake that improve potency. If your product is fresh and grown in the right environment then it should work.

My favourite is white vein maeng da or what's more accurate white vein horned leaf.

Reds are more sedating,whites uplifting and greens are long lasting. Then there's yellow,these are older leaves that are slightly fermented and give a different profile of effects. I find yellow to work best in combination with other strains. Some farmers also use cats claw and tongkat Ali when fermenting the older leaves.

 

[GetMeOutOfThisCRAP]

Hey man, just wanted to clarify something from your post. Gabapentin is not benzodiazepine as it is not an agonist of the gaba a receptor site. Gabapentin belongs to the class of drugs known as "gabapentinoids" which includes gabapentin, pregabalin, and phenibut, amongst others though the ones mentioned are most often used.

To answer your question about phenibut, it is more comparable to gabapentin in effects than it is to benzodiazepines. Phenibut is a potent voltage gated calcium channel (VGCC) blocker (as is gabapentin) and gaba b receptor agonist. It is similar to the pharmaceutical drug baclofen, though not as potent of an agonist at the gaba b site.

I second the brick red kratom typically being potent. I have read this has something to do with a different drying method but I'm not positive on that. I also think vendor matters more than strain. I have recieved consisten and reliable kratom for 5 years. I've had a few bad ones, but many more good ones.

Over the years I have learned to recognize the color, smell, and taste of potent kratom. This is one of the reasons I TW or brew tea and do not attempt to mask the flavor, at least until I know it's good lol. At most I chase it with water but I love the numb tongue feeling after drinking the tea quickly. It's reminiscent of the numbing effects of cocaine imo. This also occurs with strong extracts taken sublingual or buccal.

I've had some good white strains. Especially white Borneo from a particular vendor. It's uplifting and painkilling simultaneously.

Right - gabapentinoids are their only family my bad. I suppose I called it a benziodiazepine because it reminds me of a benzo but in stimulant form

By the way... you said that you're a chronic pain patient (or once were) that switched to only kratom because of legal reasons or sudden lack of access? Did you find that there was a period when you did the switch over in which you experienced anhedonia, or an inability to experience fun/release dopamine? I feel like a robot on only kratom. Not necessarily depressed, but it's as though I can't enjoy much of anything. I'm pretty sure that's temporary and my brain will rewire but man it does not feel good. Funny how something so enjoyable leads to being unable to enjoy anything I feel like the kratom only life is by far the right choice. It's a bit of a sacrifice and it does suffice, but it's still hard nonetheless to let go of old habits. There's something about non-kratom that makes me perpetually want to redose and in the end I always experience depression on the real deal.

 

[Lizzy1Fair]

You're not the first person I've seen mentioning red kratom! I need to try this. I'll probably order some online :0

PS. I've never found Benzos like Xanax or klonopin to be addicting.. probably because of how dysfunctional they make me so I can't take them on a busy day like other substances--which can improve my ability to function to a degree. Gabapentin is the most addicting "benzodiazepine," because I can actually function very well on it lol. I was only planning on using the phenibut for withdrawal... Not sure if it would be addictive for me though. I have no history of benzodiazepines abuse or gabapentin abuse either. Only opiates and stimulants are a problem here. Drugs that relieve anxiety are nice but my personality is sort of naturally benzo'd out. I have issues with drugs that are the polar opposite of benzos and stimulant my mind (opiates stimulate my mind with their euphoric properties).

The thing is, red kratom that they say is red isn't red. I

You're not the first person I've seen mentioning red kratom! I need to try this. I'll probably order some online :0

PS. I've never found Benzos like Xanax or klonopin to be addicting.. probably because of how dysfunctional they make me so I can't take them on a busy day like other substances--which can improve my ability to function to a degree. Gabapentin is the most addicting "benzodiazepine," because I can actually function very well on it lol. I was only planning on using the phenibut for withdrawal... Not sure if it would be addictive for me though. I have no history of benzodiazepines abuse or gabapentin abuse either. Only opiates and stimulants are a problem here. Drugs that relieve anxiety are nice but my personality is sort of naturally benzo'd out. I have issues with drugs that are the polar opposite of benzos and stimulant my mind (opiates stimulate my mind with their euphoric properties).

If you want red kratom, you have to call the vendor and ask them what the color of the powder is. Some know and some don't. It's really a pain in the ass, but it's the only way to find out if they have red veins and which red is the darkest in color. I got lucky with the 1st vendor I purchased from when i first started buying. The reds were red/brown in color and the whites were that light green color; quality was fantastic. Things have changed and the quality isn't the same and the potency is not even close to what it used to be. I've tried about 6 other vendors since and none of them are any better. The search continues. Because I haven't had time to really call and hunt down a vendor, I just use more of the green and reds that I have. I'd reallly love to luck out and find a place that carries a true red vein.

I used to get the same thing with the benzos and opiates giving me opposite effects. I have generic lyrica here, but I'm actually nervous to try it.

 

[Lizzy1Fair]

I don't necessarily think it's the name or the color i think it's the vendor.

i mean, even some vendors have some good strains and some bad ones, but as many have said here before, strains are not usually consistent across vendor.

They'll name a strain anything and i don't even necessarily think they'll only call a strain that appears red in color a 'red' strain. I think one vendor's green malay could be another's white indo or another's red maeng da or whatever.

At this point it's the wild west and i think vendor's usually just give things names they think sound good.

Sure, I'm sure SOME vendors are legit with the name as far as where they got it and color, but it's just not like weed strains where you know you've got an indica or sativa or white rhino or purple haze or whatever, kratom as NOWHERE NEAR so consistent with strain.

I treat every strain as if i have no clue how it will feel till i take it.

i have noticed that currently one red strain i have is the strongest, but i still overall prefer greens.

I'm taking a long break now from all drugs, but yeah, kratom strains are just very unpredictable.

Every time someone says ''Red Maeng da'' or ''white bali'' or whatever ''is my favorite strain'' i feel like correcting them and saying ''NO....the ''red bali''/''white maeng da'' FROM VENDOR X is your favorite strain, and if you got something called that from someone else you might hate it.''

The names of the kratom strains are for marketing purposes and that's it. I use kratom like medicine to kill pain. The only kratom that helps with pain is redish brown in color. If it's green, i'm wasting my $
These are both red strains from 2 different vendors. The top powder is really a red strain, the bottom powder is green.

 

[Lizzy1Fair]

I


I find that if a vendor has a low turnover or if there's a certain strain people don't like,that its usually old stock and it loses potency. I think this has a lot to do with crap batches.

There are certain strains that are more potent and also certain growing conditions I.e next to a river or lake that improve potency. If your product is fresh and grown in the right environment then it should work.

My favourite is white vein maeng da or what's more accurate white vein horned leaf.

Reds are more sedating,whites uplifting and greens are long lasting. Then there's yellow,these are older leaves that are slightly fermented and give a different profile of effects. I find yellow to work best in combination with other strains. Some farmers also use cats claw and tongkat Ali when fermenting the older leaves.

The fermented powder tastes worse doesn't it.... you have to wonder how it can taste worse. Yuck.... I can taste it now. So bad
If you've found a good strain you like somewhere, buy a larger amt of that batch. The next time they get white vein horned leaf, it's not going to be similar to the wvhl you tried and like.

 

[Badunkadunk]

Good to see you hear Wilson! I always appreciate your posts.

Drug laws can be pretty asinine... like Cannabis being Federal Schedule 1 in the US, the highest level of scheduling alongside many psychedelics that are also touted as "having no medicinal value", yet legal in many states and the medicinal value of cannabis is now scientifically proven and indisputable. No logic. So many contradictions.

I am treated for adult ADD and dysthymia (treatment resistant) with dextroamphetamine in the form of Vyvanse 60mg capsule and have been for a few years now. I also have many legitimate chronic pain conditions and was a patient in a pain management clinic for some time. IME it's much easier to obtain stimulant medications than opioids of any kind.

There are some states that do sell codeine syrup with phenergan (schedule V) OTC but it is at the pharmacist's discretion. I know this is still legal in Washington state (I dont live there lol, but know people that do). However, it is pretty rare to obtain this way anymore. Certainly not like in the UK it sounds!

Idk what all the hype about oxy is. I mean, it's good, but not that good. I can think of at least 10 other prescription opioids I'd prefer.

Hi Wilson, I'm a fan of oxys but interested in other opioids you prefer?