Dissociatives The Big & Dandy 3-MeO-PCP Thread: 3-MeO 4 Leaf Clover

[vortech]

Well I agree it isn't sticky-worthy (but thanks for the nod). My musing enjoys riding the line of controversy (and edging the cut of off-topic social commentary). No fear nor judgement, just hear to tickle your noodly appendage (bonus point if you got the pastafarian reference).

I like the theory posited about positional isomers, given that it is established there aren't 'R' and 'S' isomers a la ketamine/MXE. Can we get a chemist in the house to break down the possibilities? There's the 'psychoactive byproduct of synthesis impurities' theory which certainly holds some weight if we know the synthesis route labs are taking. Most my other theories lie in the more metaphysical realm, like 'vibrational memory' of the precursors (read ' The Living Energy Universe' for that), and the possibility that the finished product can store information in the way that crystals can- like how quartz crystals are used as timing components in electronics, maybe different qualities of arylcyclohexylamine crystals imbue different timings- this is all probably considered pseudoscience or fringe quantum physics/mechanics, but like I said I'm just an imaginator, and on a good day I aspire to inspire, at least a laugh or smile.

 

[mindseye888]

Yeah, I just thought it would kill a bunch of dead posts about why a certain chemical doesn't always produce the same effects without using tolerance as an floating answer.

 

[Solipsis]

Well I agree it isn't sticky-worthy (but thanks for the nod). My musing enjoys riding the line of controversy (and edging the cut of off-topic social commentary). No fear nor judgement, just hear to tickle your noodly appendage (bonus point if you got the pastafarian reference).

I like the theory posited about positional isomers, given that it is established there aren't 'R' and 'S' isomers a la ketamine/MXE. Can we get a chemist in the house to break down the possibilities? There's the 'psychoactive byproduct of synthesis impurities' theory which certainly holds some weight if we know the synthesis route labs are taking. Most my other theories lie in the more metaphysical realm, like 'vibrational memory' of the precursors (read ' The Living Energy Universe' for that), and the possibility that the finished product can store information in the way that crystals can- like how quartz crystals are used as timing components in electronics, maybe different qualities of arylcyclohexylamine crystals imbue different timings- this is all probably considered pseudoscience or fringe quantum physics/mechanics, but like I said I'm just an imaginator, and on a good day I aspire to inspire, at least a laugh or smile.

Just like the flaw in the idea of polymorphism (or, that is kind of what you're talking about): the crystals get dissolved before they get to the brain - I hope! Crystals don't fit well in receptors
And while there are vibrational modes in molecules like the ones responsible for the greenhouse effect (it wasn't us humans ), rest assured that those are influenced by things like radiation all of which are extremely variable and have nothing to do with an emotional atmosphere. Quartz crystal vibrates at a constant frequency, it is this constance that makes it useful for timing. Which is kind of evidence that there is nothing there in your idea: if it could be influenced by such esoteric factors as the correlates of those 3 colored spirits, quartz would be useless.

It would also mean that you could change your batch just by recrystallizing it at home - not even necessarily the real re-X procedures for getting bigger crystals/separation etc, but just dissolving it and letting it evap again. However, it doesn't mean that it would tell you anything if you'd try that without creating a lot of datapoints (many people trying, double blind, etc) cause without studying it like that, you're likely to just project your ideas and feelings about the matter and perhaps mistake them as evidence for something happening.

I think the synthesis impurity thing was explored much earlier in the thread or it might have been the previous one, so just go and check. I don't remember it getting or keeping much traction. Also, recall that Xorkoth had two batches tested that were subjectively distinctly manic and non-manic and they came back as high quality 3-MeO, not one being impure - or the impurity would have to be insanely potent to still make that difference, which wouldn't make much sense cause then you could easily overdose incredibly on the impurity.

Reading about that book reminds me of that Japanese(?) guy and his 'water memory' which turned out to be bs. But a better point of view is that of the Laplace demon, which is about ultimate determinism. I will take that the memory of a part of the universe is it's path taken to get there, which the all-knowing Laplace demon could tell you about, but it's much more arbitrary how that would make it different from what is chemically supposed to be identical.
You'd be talking about overthrowing very basic principles of chemistry that two identical molecules are indistinguishable. Whatever test we throw at them, shows that they are. Then you might suggest that humans are more than a bag of chemicals, yet this is how one psychedelic is different from another in the first place: chemically - otherwise you would expect every trip to be quite different regardless of it's chemistry. They would all be generic psychedelics more or less. Although a better way to make that argument is to point out that other psychedelics/ drugs would similarly seem to come in different batches. For some people think this (colored acid batches back in the day for example), but clearly not all disso's and psychedelics have this batch mystery 3-MeO has.

 

[vortech]

What I meant was to use quartz crystal timers as evidence that different matrices of structure have different resonant frequencies. Quartz is a consistent matrix so an ideal candidate. The theory is that this structure hits our physicalpsychospiritual systems with this energy intact, conserving that memory as it breaks down. So, variances in how the crystals form in synthesis could explain different results.

 

[xammy]

I'm so glad to have you
And it's getting worse
I'm so mad to love you
And your evil curse

 

[Vastness]

vortech, it is hard not to enjoy your posts, no matter my thoughts about metaphysical pseudoscience in general.

I think the synthesis impurity thing was explored much earlier in the thread or it might have been the previous one, so just go and check. I don't remember it getting or keeping much traction. Also, recall that Xorkoth had two batches tested that were subjectively distinctly manic and non-manic and they came back as high quality 3-MeO, not one being impure - or the impurity would have to be insanely potent to still make that difference, which wouldn't make much sense cause then you could easily overdose incredibly on the impurity.

Ah yes, that is what I was remembering. I think this is surely a solvable problem though. If both tests came back as 3-MeO-PCP, then obviously we need more details about the accuracy of the testing process. It seems there are 3 possibilities here... Either the test is not sensitive enough to distinguish certain very similar compounds, OR... the compounds are the same, BUT there is an important difference that us non-chemically educated types are missing, analogous to the S and R isomers of Ketamine, OR... there is actually no difference, and something about 3-MeO-PCP itself is just inducing this bizarre group delusion.

Xorkoth, would you be able to provide any more information about the sensitivity of the tests?

 

[LucidSDreamr]

I think the synthesis impurity thing was explored much earlier in the thread or it might have been the previous one, so just go and check. I don't remember it getting or keeping much traction. Also, recall that Xorkoth had two batches tested that were subjectively distinctly manic and non-manic and they came back as high quality 3-MeO, not one being impure - or the impurity would have to be insanely potent to still make that difference, which wouldn't make much sense cause then you could easily overdose incredibly on the impurity.

Without knowing what the labs did (type of MS scans, chromatography, or seeing spectral data) taking their word that "its pure" I would be skeptical a bit still.

If there are positional ismomers they are likely getting put in there on purpose or accident not formed during synthesis. If the standard PCP synth is being used there isn't much else that can happen to form products of the same mass but differing structure.

Differences might be due to different salts of PCP being formed Cl or Br. And causing different types of absorption.

 

[Xorkoth]

I had my two batches, one clearly of the stimulating/manic kind, and one of the dissociating kind (confirmed by multiple very experienced users as to their subjective differences), done by a friend with access to equipment and a fully reliable skill in advanced lab work, and he determined that both were pure 3-MeO-PCP without impurities. I wasn't relying on vendor information. The guy who did it is a friend who I trust implicitly on such matters, and if you knew who it was you would too. He's a fellow of ours whom we all respect so I trust his word. I also viewed the resulting documents and the graph looks precisely the same between the samples. I was assured both were pure 3-MeO-PCP with no detectable peaks besides 3-MeO-PCP.

For what it's worth this individual also bioassayed each in small amounts around the time of the GC/MS and said they seemed the same subjectively. However to me this is not necessarily proof that the batch theory is invalid. I mean I am extremely experienced in altering my mind, and my expectation when trying that new, dissociating batch was that they'd be the same, same source, same appearance. But immediately we noticed a slightly different taste/umamai when snorted, and the development of the effects was notably and significantly different. As I said I had to convince myself over the course of time while using this batch regularly that it in fact was not placebo because I really assumed it was at first. But no, the differences are clear and stark and as soon as I tried the other batch again, it was back to what I originally experienced. My friends and I all agreed without a doubt that there were differences, The first night we tried the dissociating batch we were all starting to doubt it was 3-MeO-PCP at all. But both batches exhibit most of the same effects, it's just one never developed that hypomanic state when dosed in my typical fashion, and when taken higher, it's trippier and reminds us of MXE somewhat. When you try something very regularly and are always able to achieve the same state, and then you try a different batch that you fully expected to be the same and you can never reach that same place with the same dosing, but you can reach some different places... well, you start to realize something is going on and it's not just due to placebo. Something is going on here, even though both batches showed totally identical results in the GC/MS and so should, in theory, be exactly the same. Something is going on, I've been doing this stuff for many years and I know my body and mind in relation to the effects of drugs. I don't notice this disparity in batches really except mainly for the arycyclohexanines. It's a mystery, especially for 3-Meo-PCP which has so sterioisomers to account for possible differing rations of isomers with different effects (which is a well-established way to have different effects, I mean s-ketamine is quite distinct from racemic). We don't understand the full picture, IMO, just like we have never actually understood the full picture in science. At some point there is always a paradigm shift leading to new understanding. Throughout all of human history in the sciences this is true. There is definitely something going on with 2 types of batches of this with quite similar but unique effects, centered on whether the batch has a tendency to produce strong stimulation and hypomania, or not, and be more dissociating. We do not understand all of what's going on with how drugs interact with the brain, not by a long shot. The next 50, 100 years will reveal so much more and they'll look back on our time like, oh, they really thought they had it, that was silly. Brains are so immensely complex, we understand so little, and so it's imperative to view out current models of how drugs affect the brain as something that will one day be revolutionized, and then at an even later, revolutionized again. And so on. We know a lot but we don't know shit, You know?

It's the same with MXE batches for sure, but at least there we have the differing ratio of r and s isomers, like with ketamine, that is based on the synthesis route. 3-MeO-PCP is weird since it doesn't have that. But myself and many agree, there a batch variance.

 

[Img_9999]

Just like the flaw in the idea of polymorphism (or, that is kind of what you're talking about): the crystals get dissolved before they get to the brain - I hope! Crystals don't fit well in receptors
And while there are vibrational modes in molecules like the ones responsible for the greenhouse effect (it wasn't us humans ), rest assured that those are influenced by things like radiation all of which are extremely variable and have nothing to do with an emotional atmosphere. Quartz crystal vibrates at a constant frequency, it is this constance that makes it useful for timing. Which is kind of evidence that there is nothing there in your idea: if it could be influenced by such esoteric factors as the correlates of those 3 colored spirits, quartz would be useless.

It would also mean that you could change your batch just by recrystallizing it at home - not even necessarily the real re-X procedures for getting bigger crystals/separation etc, but just dissolving it and letting it evap again. However, it doesn't mean that it would tell you anything if you'd try that without creating a lot of datapoints (many people trying, double blind, etc) cause without studying it like that, you're likely to just project your ideas and feelings about the matter and perhaps mistake them as evidence for something happening.

I think the synthesis impurity thing was explored much earlier in the thread or it might have been the previous one, so just go and check. I don't remember it getting or keeping much traction. Also, recall that Xorkoth had two batches tested that were subjectively distinctly manic and non-manic and they came back as high quality 3-MeO, not one being impure - or the impurity would have to be insanely potent to still make that difference, which wouldn't make much sense cause then you could easily overdose incredibly on the impurity.

Reading about that book reminds me of that Japanese(?) guy and his 'water memory' which turned out to be bs. But a better point of view is that of the Laplace demon, which is about ultimate determinism. I will take that the memory of a part of the universe is it's path taken to get there, which the all-knowing Laplace demon could tell you about, but it's much more arbitrary how that would make it different from what is chemically supposed to be identical.
You'd be talking about overthrowing very basic principles of chemistry that two identical molecules are indistinguishable. Whatever test we throw at them, shows that they are. Then you might suggest that humans are more than a bag of chemicals, yet this is how one psychedelic is different from another in the first place: chemically - otherwise you would expect every trip to be quite different regardless of it's chemistry. They would all be generic psychedelics more or less. Although a better way to make that argument is to point out that other psychedelics/ drugs would similarly seem to come in different batches. For some people think this (colored acid batches back in the day for example), but clearly not all disso's and psychedelics have this batch mystery 3-MeO has.

Lol I loved reading this post.

 

[Xorkoth]

Yeah Soli is a boss among bosses. He leaks inspiration like a faucet that is all primed to gush out at the slightest twist. Perhaps impractical for your home, but in your man cave... yeah, gotta get that Soli in there to blast you with the heavy water pressure of inspiration and logical deduction.

 

[Hexagon Sun]

^Are you being sarcastic?

I don't mean to be rude here but although classifying batches of drugs by "the colour of their spirit" might work well for some people, I don't think it has any use whatsoever as far as making sure that people are as informed as possible about what they are taking.

Regardless I guess it might be the case that there are no real differences between batches, at least none that could be discerned in a blind test. I have only ever had the one batch so I can't personally comment but I thought there were a few more experienced dissociative users who had sampled both batches earlier in the thread and thought there was a difference. For some reason I find it much easier to dismiss the idea that different batches of MDMA would have different effects, although MDMA has been around for a while and presumably if there were significant enantiomeric differences or something these would be known about by now, assuming we are not just talking about different MDxx compounds. 3-MeO-PCP is much newer and it's conceivable the testing process is less sensitive, but I guess the placebo/set/setting/suggestion effect is a powerful thing as well.

I love when extremely literal people clash with extremely aromatic people

 

[Wiserthanearlier]

Similiar arguments are underway regarding MDMA. Yes there are different isomers, however, the main argument suggests that MDMA is not the same as it was.
Purist argue, that MDMA hcl of confirmed purity 84% is always the same.
Many (including myself) suggest this is not the case, subjectively the effects feel different than they used too.

Practically, it is considered that the manufacturing methods vary dramatically, including the main precursors involved.
Irrelevant of the actualy validity of the pros and xons of this argument, is it not indeed possible the same causes may affect the 3meoPCP differences?

Manufaacturing methods, precursors, etc?
The manufacturing methods argument doesnt suggest purity differences, more simply a differing result from same compound.
Effectively, if homeopathy is even truly considered a science, then it may help prove this once and for all.

Just a thought...

 

[LucidSDreamr]

done by a friend with access to equipment and a fully reliable skill in advanced lab work, and he determined that both were pure 3-MeO-PCP without impurities.

This is different than what I was thinking. I thought you had sent it to ecstasy data or some commercial analytical lab which wouldn't put rigor into such an investigation.

The only other thing that comes to mind is that this effect is of an ionic or metallic origin. If one batch is full of metals left over from another synth in the vessel one batch was made in (which if you've seen video of these chinese labs is not hard to believe), a GCMS would not differentiate such contaminants from the basline signal due to "leaching" and ICP-MS analysis would be required.

And its well known that metals and their ions can have acute physiological effects when consumed.

This is a scary yet possible situation that can slip by a thorough lcms analysis.

I've often wondered how full these chinese drugs are of trace metals, especially the toxic ones. We could all be killing ourselves and not know it yet. I really wish someone would ICP analyze a wide array of RCs and do a study on it.

 

[Xorkoth]

Chilling...

 

[LucidSDreamr]

sorry to be a buzzkillington

 

[spacejunk]

Wouldn't heavy metals show up in lab analysis?

 

[Solipsis]

^^^^

^ Not necessarily I think, maybe often they wouldn't... It seems the GC/MS and LC/MS from energy control would not detect them.

Heavy metals, if consumed in such quantities that they affect your state of mind, would rather cause anxiety and depression, maybe tiredness and getting dumbed down - not mania.

Heavy metals don't seem too hard to wash / lose during extraction. But who knows right?

 

[spacejunk]

Ah ok. I know nuthin' about spectrometer analysis, cheers

 

[LucidSDreamr]

^^^^

^ Not necessarily I think, maybe often they wouldn't... It seems the GC/MS and LC/MS from energy control would not detect them.

Heavy metals, if consumed in such quantities that they affect your state of mind, would rather cause anxiety and depression, maybe tiredness and getting dumbed down - not mania.

Heavy metals don't seem too hard to wash / lose during extraction. But who knows right?

Heavy metals stay everywhere during organic synthesis. Aqueous extracts, organic extracts, and even leach everywhere during chromatographic purification. There are NO economic ways to get rid of them. and you know the chinese don't give two shits about cleaning up their chemistry or equipment to make illegal drugs for westerners. I suspect that toxic metals are be used in one form or another in a chemical reaction (perhaps unrelated PCP), probably in the same reaction vessels. No "walter white" level of cleaning the vessel after each synth going on there.

and yes a GCMS or LCMS analysis would not detect heavy metals. I mean the detector (MS) would detect the signal from them, but it would be spread out over the entire analysis time about evenly thus the main operating principal of GCMS and LCMS by which different compounds are separated from eachother and concentrated at a specific moment they enter the MS detector would be absent and thus you would just see a Raised baseline signal instead of a sharp "peak" indicative of a molecule.

 

[Xorkoth]

You guys are making me nervous. So much shit is coming from China. And you're right, who fucking knows what's going on with quality control over there?