Mass Psychedelic User Delusion/Denial

[ComfortablyNumb95]

soft drugs, hard drugs? what does that even mean? you can smoke a shitload of good weed and hallucinate like crazy (from what i've read) or take half a blotter and have a light trip. it's all about dosage

 

[Morninggloryseed]

Soft drugs are fuzzy like velvet. Hard drugs are stiff like wood. Look, you are making it hard...and I mean, 'it' moved!

 

[Thorns Have Roses]

soft drugs, hard drugs? what does that even mean? you can smoke a shitload of good weed and hallucinate like crazy (from what i've read) or take half a blotter and have a light trip. it's all about dosage

Generally speaking, hard drugs are those that have a higher risk of addiction and negative health effects. So in your example, we would consider both psychedelics and herb to be soft drugs, whereas drugs like oxycodone or cocaine would be considered hard. The distinction has utility.

But we're digressing...

 

[Morninggloryseed]

Caffeine is probably an erect drug because it does give physical addiction, and more than 200-300mg a day is not particularly healthy for the heart and BP.

 

[ParappaTheRapper]

Here are my thoughts almost 10 years on (which was when I started; last time using a psychedelic was 6 years ago):
- Psychedelic experiences are still remembered as some of the more interesting ones in my lifetime.
- Psychedelics are invaluable not for the "insights" that you experience during a trip, but for revealing the unlikeliness and lack of utility that actual real life "insights" on a day to day basis may have. They allow you to take apart your brain and see how they're working piece by piece. Too often humans like to point a finger one way or the other; psychedelics teach you about the personal responsibility you have in the construction of your own reality.
- They have additional value in teaching one to deal with strong emotions and to work through painful experiences in ways that are healthy, beyond the duration of the experience.
- They appear to eventually cause some spiritual experiences in most users.
- Psychedelics are rarely associated with long term psychosis, of which the etiology is not really known or understood well.

Psychedelics are not:
- Your doorway to another dimension.
- Your key to determining "who you really are" beyond that "who you really are" is kind of meaningless and changes a lot.
- A pathway to enlightenment.
- A surefire cure for sociopathy, mental disorders, unhappiness.
- Entirely predictable in effect.

The end of the day message for me was that psychedelics are tools for understanding the way your brain works and seeing what happens when you subject it to some truly strange chemistry; they build human character and compassion similar to any other harrowing, adventurous experience. Most of the mythoi surrounding psychedelics I would guess are a product of counterculture. This was an unnecessary transformation caused by the removal of science from psychedelic drug investigation by the law, leaving only non-scientists to interpret the effects of the drugs.

can you elaborate on the second hyphenated point here?

 

[nuke]

can you elaborate on the second hyphenated point here?

Yes.

As a researcher, there are always about a million points in the course of a year where I think I've "discovered" something only to test the theory and learn that it was flawed in some way. Similarly, there are many conclusions drawn whilst under the influence of psychedelics that upon further sober examination are incorrect. Shulgin himself noted these delusions, see trials of ALEPH-1 where his brain spirals off into bizarre paranoia and egoism. We can draw up similarly false introspection or retrospection that is proven incorrect under more rigorous examination, such as the suggested memories of crime scene witnesses.

The end of the day lesson is to stop feeding your ego so vastly and to never draw conclusions about something which one can never rigorously test. For the remaining problems, one should rigorously test all else before making a claim. This goes doubly for your theories about others and your social relationships. One's sexuality may have been the result of bullying, of your genes, of your family situations growing up, etc etc etc, but it's impossible to determine which of these things have caused it precisely. The important point is that you avoid pursuing the definition of the label ascribed to you and your behaviour and accept yourself for who you are so long as it has no negative bearing on the happiness of those around you.

You need not understand science to accept that it works the way it does, because it will regardless of your thoughts about it. Similarly, you may never be able to define many of your idiosyncracies, but they will often continue to exist regardless of any theories you might fabricate about them. Humans have terribly imprecise memory and will never be able to completely unravel the majority of the things that torment them. The first step in human self improvement is then accepting yourself despite your flaws, instead of attempting to tear apart your own memories to reach some a-ha moment where you've finally believed you have settled your problem.

If you fail to recognize this, it's very easily the case that you will begin believing you were actually transported into another dimension and that aliens revealed your past lives to you and why you have the problems you happen to have, and so on, but of course these things didn't happen. What's more interesting is what spurred on this particular fantasy and how our reality played a role in constructing it -- why can't we forgive ourselves of our own mistakes?

 

[Morninggloryseed]

Excellent post Nuke. I hope you can stomach that I am taking your words for my notes/research/book....giving full credit to you for writing it of course. Excellent, excellent.

 

[TangerinO]

Here are my thoughts almost 10 years on (which was when I started; last time using a psychedelic was 6 years ago):
- Psychedelic experiences are still remembered as some of the more interesting ones in my lifetime.
- Psychedelics are invaluable not for the "insights" that you experience during a trip, but for revealing the unlikeliness and lack of utility that actual real life "insights" on a day to day basis may have. They allow you to take apart your brain and see how they're working piece by piece. Too often humans like to point a finger one way or the other; psychedelics teach you about the personal responsibility you have in the construction of your own reality.
- They have additional value in teaching one to deal with strong emotions and to work through painful experiences in ways that are healthy, beyond the duration of the experience.
- They appear to eventually cause some spiritual experiences in most users.
- Psychedelics are rarely associated with long term psychosis, of which the etiology is not really known or understood well.

Psychedelics are not:
- Your doorway to another dimension.
- Your key to determining "who you really are" beyond that "who you really are" is kind of meaningless and changes a lot.
- A pathway to enlightenment.
- A surefire cure for sociopathy, mental disorders, unhappiness.
- Entirely predictable in effect.

The end of the day message for me was that psychedelics are tools for understanding the way your brain works and seeing what happens when you subject it to some truly strange chemistry; they build human character and compassion similar to any other harrowing, adventurous experience. Most of the mythoi surrounding psychedelics I would guess are a product of counterculture. This was an unnecessary transformation caused by the removal of science from psychedelic drug investigation by the law, leaving only non-scientists to interpret the effects of the drugs.

Reading back on this thread and find this post very thought provoking.

As someone who is somewhat aimless, young and still finding who I am as Never Knows Best put it, and also as someone who did spend a large amount of time focussing solely on psychedelic mythos and what not and neglecting "The mundane plane" so to speak, I guess I fall into the category of that side of counter culture but recently have seen a different side of it that contradicts the idealised notions I had in my mind, fresh onto the psychedelic scene.

I'm not quite sure what my point is here but I guess it's that I wouldn't necessarily call it delusion, as you put it yourself psychedelics aid to teach us how we are responsible for creating our own realities, but in retrospect being 21 in a few days and having started using psychedelics relatively heavily from around 17 - 18, I think it's definitely wise to have some solid, well-informed grounding in reality before you set on down the yellow brick road of psychedelia.

I didn't and it led me through a year or two of deep confusion, at mystical and eventually practical insight. What I've learned after going through two massive shifts in attitude over the last 5 years, is that it is most definitely all about how you frame it.

How you interpret things, not what they are. That being said I've always been fascinated by people who think very scientifically and logically, I tend to think more metaphorically and emotionally, and have gotten much insight from other logical thinking friends of mine, who also happen to be psychedelic users.

Total side track here, but one thing I suggest for an interesting conversation amongst somewhat intelligent friends is discussing, and attempting to explain how one uses their imagination, minds eye or whatever to actually think about what it going on around them. In other words what is the specific nature of your consciousness to interpret things in real time. We found we all think in totally different ways, had difficulty describing the phenomenon and that some of us thought in pictures, some in audio, some in combinations of various elements with on or the other being more pervasive. Interestingly enough those of us also who tend to think visually in nature, tended to experience more extreme visual distortions and effects from psychedelics, and drugs in general at lower doses.

Anyway so much rant here now, the point is, it's all in your perspective, oh yeah and I wish we could legally study these chemicals in disgusting detail so I could put my autistic brain at rest about the ceaseless wonders of this whole existence mess.

 

[SONN]

hydergine makes the "delusional/visionary" benefits of psychedelics better IME

it also raises your IQ

which IMHO would suggest that something profound is actually taking place when you trip and have these crazy(delusional/visionary) thoughts.

 

[TheAppleCore]

Key insight: your body/mind is a balance. If you push that balance one way a proportional counterforce will come into being to force things back to an equilibrium. You take a drug because it upsets the balance, otherwise there is no point. But the stronger (dose) and the more often (frequency) you upset the balance, the stronger, longer and more unpleasant the counterforce will be. If you push for a long time, the counterforce will push back for much much longer after you quit.

Damn, that paragraph deserves a round of applause. Yin/yang in a nutshell. This is wonderful too, and captures my general sentiments toward psychedelics:

Errr maybe or perhaps "HPPD" is a design of western culture. Many a Shaman in South America, Central America, Gabon, use psychedelics monthly or weekly and do not suffer from "HPPD" as defined in the DSM-IV. If you ask me, HPPD isn't any different than a little kid staring up in the clouds and seeing puppy dogs tails and cotton candy. I've learned to have a fluid mind and can meditate myself into a 5-MeO-DMT-like state....did it yesterday at the dentist...I don't considered myself damaged at all.

in the same way that 'fear' and excitement' are the same adrenalin rush...and and only differ in the way the mind responds to the feelings, and labels the feelings...so to is the human mind when it reacts to opened perceptions....some will fear it and consider themselves damaged (self fulfilling prophecy) and others just get more amazed at the wonders of the mind, and have the knowledge that perception is fluid and what we 'know to see' is not always what is...then move on to the next challenge.

In my opinion, there's absolutely no good reason to worry about damage from overusing psychedelics. For those of us that greatly benefit from regular psychedelic introspective sessions, having a little nagging voice in the back of the mind that "YOU'RE KILLING YOURSELF! YOU'RE DESTROYING YOUR MIND!" is nothing but an absurd distraction from all of the healthy insights of the trip. You might be part of the minority of people that are vulnerable to psychotic breaks or what-have-you, but structuring your psychedelic use around that fear is like never driving a car for fear of getting into an accident.

 

[Magickduck]

Well there needs to be a "denial" thread about every class of drugs because all this thread is doing is reiterating what is already reiterated over and over again. Maybe every drug discussion forum just needs a side effects and long term damage thread? I don't know. What I do know is that the title of this thread is offensive and the manner of discussion useless and an argument no one can win. It's a good basis for a discussion, you're right, but this thread is the wrong platform.

I am sorry you find this thread title "offensive" - perhaps you should not identify yourself with your DOC. I am who started the thread, and I personally feel that psychedelics are amazing mental and spiritual tools, however, you cannot say that there are not a signifigant ammount of users of it (more so than others - people doing heroin KNOW what they are doing is damaging) who think it is completely safe and innocent, when it can truly fuck them up. I do not appreciate you asking this thread to be closed, as I started it to attempt to educate some users about the facts of this, so as to not fuck them up permenantly due to their naievity.

perhaps you will like my other thread, 'Psychedelic cults', aswell. http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/threads/678921-Psychedelic-cults

Generally speaking, hard drugs are those that have a higher risk of addiction and negative health effects. So in your example, we would consider both psychedelics and herb to be soft drugs, whereas drugs like oxycodone or cocaine would be considered hard. The distinction has utility.

But we're digressing...

The reason I consider psychedelics a hard drug as they can cause long term delusional behavior and psychosis - even without it pre-existing. The main reason I made this thread is it is commonly accepted that if you do not have an underlying health issue, that psycehdelics cannot cause one, only trigger it if you do. This is false, as per my experiance. I have seen people go in and out of psychedelic induced psychosis. Anything that can put that many people in that type of state after the drugs have worn off - not to mention HPPD - is a "hard drug" in my eyes.

In my opinion, there's absolutely no good reason to worry about damage from overusing psychedelics. For those of us that greatly benefit from regular psychedelic introspective sessions, having a little nagging voice in the back of the mind that "YOU'RE KILLING YOURSELF! YOU'RE DESTROYING YOUR MIND!" is nothing but an absurd distraction from all of the healthy insights of the trip. You might be part of the minority of people that are vulnerable to psychotic breaks or what-have-you, but structuring your psychedelic use around that fear is like never driving a car for fear of getting into an accident.

This is exactly the type of delusion/denial I was talking about. I was just like you, till I went nucking futs. Now I won't ever be so reckless again, and I won't go around inspiriing other people to go nuts either.

 

[Thorns Have Roses]

The reason I consider psychedelics a hard drug as they can cause long term delusional behavior and psychosis - even without it pre-existing.

I can respect that*, but disagree. As I said before, this isn't a property unique to psychedelics, see: romantic relationships, settling for a career you don't like just for financial security, etc. Whereas harder drugs are to psychological problems what contact sports are to concussions.

*

It is commonly accepted that if you do not have an underlying health issue, that psycehdelics cannot cause one, only trigger it if you do.

I don't think that is commonly accepted here, PDers are aware of the risks of their drugs of choice, and try to inform others of the dangers. Also, I think it's odious to put psychs on the level opiates/coke/amps like our society does. Now if you wanted to argue that dissociatives deserve the "hard" moniker, I'd be much more inclined to agree.

In my opinion, there's absolutely no good reason to worry about damage from overusing psychedelics

I reject this claim (but I love you for your optimism, and don't wish to change your mind). If someone perfectly happy with their lives and their place in the world wanted to try tripping, I'd advise against it. Maybe accepting social constructs as objective fact is delusion, but freeing your mind at the cost of inflicting yourself with anomie is no boon, it's downright maladaptive. Of course that's not guartanteed to happen, but I think potential risk outweighs potential benefit in this situation.

As the one Talmudic story about the riskiness of mysticism goes, "Four men entered into paradise — Ben Azzai, Ben Zoma, Acher, and Akiba. Ben Azzai looked and died; Ben Zoma looked and went mad; Acher destroyed the plants; Akiba entered in peace and departed in peace."

 

[Morninggloryseed]

I would not say you Never Know Best...in this post you clearly do!

I also find it abhorrent and objectionable that psychedelics are considered 'drugs' in the same sentence as reenforcing materials like cocaine or morphine. I know this is a core reason why there are 'bad trips' and when a 'bad trip' happens to many, they dismiss it as 'stupid psychedelic DRUGS' instead of making the most of the opportunity to learn, unlearn, and take the lessons to the next logical step.

 

[JackARoe]

^ I agree MGS. Psychedelics are sacraments in my world. And I do get pretty pissed off when they are lumped in with heroin and cocaine (not that I don't like those too ) But I remember growing up in the late 70's and early 80's just tripping thousands of times. There were periods of experimentation where one day it would be one dose, the next day two, the next four and then the next day eight. The only complications from that was boredom from it not being special anymore and acting normal on it. The word drug makes people who are not knowledgable think of being drugged as stupid, dumb, can't think, and just plain dopey. That is not psychedelics.

I have seen people lose their heads on psychedelics. I never understood it but I have seen people I *thought* would like psychedelics just flat out flip out and hate it. They are not for everyone. But they are for some people and there are people that can trip a lot, especially when younger. For those people they can be very special and not a threat.

And I have to say the title of this thread is kind of humorous. I feel like calling out all the "delusion" from psychedelics like all the music that came from them. All those large ideas that came from them aimed at people like Aldous Huxley, Alan Watts, and even Francis Crick. Somehow I don't think the word delusion fits those scenerios. They changed society. There were people sticking flowers in guns for Christ sakes. We can't have that!!. Make it illegal. We should be supporting violence and not delusionally thinking about peace. Saying that I think psychedelics are anti delusional and rip right through the ignorance.

This is a good thread. Thanks for starting it OP. Get's people thinking.

 

[webbykevin]

If someone perfectly happy with their lives and their place in the world wanted to try tripping, I'd advise against it. Maybe accepting social constructs as objective fact is delusion, but freeing your mind at the cost of inflicting yourself with anomie is no boon, it's downright maladaptive. Of course that's not guaranteed to happen, but I think potential risk outweighs potential benefit in this situation.

Really great thinking, thanks for sharing this perspective.

 

[bloodshed344]

I am sorry you find this thread title "offensive" - perhaps you should not identify yourself with your DOC. I am who started the thread, and I personally feel that psychedelics are amazing mental and spiritual tools, however, you cannot say that there are not a signifigant ammount of users of it (more so than others - people doing heroin KNOW what they are doing is damaging) who think it is completely safe and innocent, when it can truly fuck them up. I do not appreciate you asking this thread to be closed, as I started it to attempt to educate some users about the facts of this, so as to not fuck them up permenantly due to their naievity.

Actually you identified me with my "DOC" by saying "Mass Psychedelic User blah blah". Don't portray me the way you want me to be presented, not fair at all when all I did was critique this thread. You know what my only real critique of the thread is? It's name. That and the way the discussion flowed from the first few pages was not any good, the discussion got a lot better though.

Also, it wouldn't fuck anyone up permanently. If they are so naive as to do what you say, then I think they deserve the consequences. It would most likely be good for them.

 

[Magickduck]

I can respect that*, but disagree. As I said before, this isn't a property unique to psychedelics, see: romantic relationships, settling for a career you don't like just for financial security, etc. Whereas harder drugs are to psychological problems what contact sports are to concussions.

*

what I am saying is, these are commenly accepted, however psychedelic drugs causing these problems is only accepted as happening from people having underlaying issues,.

 

[Magickduck]

And I have to say the title of this thread is kind of humorous. I feel like calling out all the "delusion" from psychedelics like all the music that came from them. All those large ideas that came from them aimed at people like Aldous Huxley, Alan Watts, and even Francis Crick. Somehow I don't think the word delusion fits those scenerios. They changed society. There were people sticking flowers in guns for Christ sakes. We can't have that!!. Make it illegal. We should be supporting violence and not delusionally thinking about peace. Saying that I think psychedelics are anti delusional and rip right through the ignorance.

This is exactly the kind of denial I speak of. You could say the same thing about anyone calling opiates bad - even though they help pain for many people, and have probably saved a few lives from suicide. And your metaphor doesn't even make sense. These things change things because they break down societal conditioning, BECAUSE they break down everything we know. and with misuse of this, we break it down too much, and it will take a mighty long time to piece it back together. And these are sacraments - I agree. But that doesn't change the fact that the way they are used much of the time is as a recreational drug. And a drug is a drug - it has its benificial effects, its side effects, and all sorts of different actions. You can't tell me the pupil dilation that happens on psychedelics is due to it being a sacrament, can you?

 

[eLeSaH]

But that doesn't change the fact that the way they are used much of the time is as a recreational drug.

I disagree 100% and agree somehow more with JackARoe. Op you seem to be caught up with your negative delusions about psychedelics and the scene judging on your posts. You seem to only pick and see the negative for whatever reason. Bad Trip?

 

[Thorns Have Roses]

psychedelic drugs causing these problems is only accepted as happening from people having underlaying issues,

Accepted by whom? In broader society, psychedelics are evil drugs that cause hallucinations and make your crazy. If you mean within the psychedelic scene, I'll take your word on it, since my only exposure to such is through BL (I'm a bit of a hermit, though I can say the meth and heroin scenes aren't too positive about psychedelics), and some brief, tangential interactions with others. I maintain that Bluelighters do not fit your characterization.