Christianity, Islam, Judaism, etc: Religion

Shrooms00087 · Feb 3, 2013

You must've not read all of what I said.

I generally disagree with Nietzsche's views on Christianity.

Interested in other research studies? Find more drug studies.

Tromps · Feb 3, 2013

That's why I said Nietzche, (or you) because I could not tell your personal views on him .

Psyduck said:
To be a christian is to imitate the Life of Christ

Ninae · Feb 3, 2013

Tromps said:
I just want to ask, do you believe he was crucified or do you think scholars are wrong about that? All I want to add is, if he wasn't actually who he said he was and was a normal human, why would he willingly go through that death for nothing? Imo if he wasn't Son of God, he wouldn't had cared to sacrifice his life for nothing. All he had to do was say he wasn't Son of God and the excruciating torture would stop, but he didn't/couldn't because of his Father's will and he endlessly persevered no matter what they did to him. Any normal human wouldn't had been able to go through that and after it all still have compassion for the people who were horridly torturing him, unless he was divinely inspired that is.[/I]

I just want to mention I've read some interesting things that make a bit more sense of this. I can't remember exactly, probably by some of the greater spiritual teachers and some of the better channeled material out there. I can't verify the truth of it, but here it goes.

One thing I read is that he spent many incarnations on Earth preparing himself for his lifetime as Jesus. One was supposed to have been as the Hindu god Kristna, where he was known as a great warrior who went out into the forest to fight wild beast, in order to train physical courage for his life as Jesus. This was obviously needed in abundance. But he was also said to have lived many more ordinary, humble lives, where he was nothing special, also many as a woman. This also makes sense.

Another thing I have read is that he spent the whole night before his capture, in the Garden of Gethsemane , praying for courage so that he wouldn't fail his mission (showing that there might be some merit to prayer). So even for him it was a great challenge that was hard to do. This shows there was a part of him that was human, and I think this was some of the point. If he had come with 100% the consciousness of a god, it wouldn't really be a sacrifice, would it?

Also, because of his advanced consciousness and powers, he could have escaped his trials at any time. Like by making himself invisible and walking out of the prison, or getting of the cross, or simply leaving the physical plane. This would have been his great challenge to resist and what he prayed for the courage for.

Finally, I also read that when he was on the cross, the great suffering made darkness overtake his soul (to some extent) and he cried out "My God, why have you forsaken me?". As up until then he had had a very ideal and sheltered life and his source of suffering had probably mostly been observing the suffering of others, the people and animals on Earth, which was a great pain to him but more indirectly. Then darkness finally overtook his soul for a moment by losing his faith in God and turning against him.

So it seems he wasn't infallible, inhuman, or preaching from some ivory tower and I think this only makes his teaching more valid, and reletable.

http://bible.org/seriespage/garden-gethsemane-luke-2239-46

Was no idiot, was he?

Thorns Have Roses · Feb 4, 2013

This shows there was a part of him that was human, and I think this was some of the point.

The view of most (nigh all) Christian denominations still in existence is that Christ is fully G-d and fully human. Hypostatic union they call it, one person with two natures. Not that you don't know, just saying so folks don't take the above in a Nestorian way.

the great suffering made darkness overtake his soul (to some extent) and he cried out "My God, why have you forsaken me?"...Then darkness finally overtook his soul for a moment by losing his faith in God and turning against him.

Can't say I agree, given the content of the rest of Psalm 22*, we could say he was hopeful/confident. Even if he was feeling cynical for a bit, Ecclesiastes style. But that's just my unqualified opinion, plenty of folk feel otherwise (some quick searching did find support for what you said).

*Full text, NIV

NSFW:

Ninae · Feb 4, 2013

Wow, I've never read this before. I'm not much of a bible reader, but still have come to most of the same conclusions of many who are, and find this interesting. as it shows there might be some universal truth that you will come to no matter what path you take.

Anyway, this text is interesting in many ways. For one thing it shows his unimaginable suffering, which seems to have been much worse than in the movie version. i.e. it doesn't show the full extent of his torture, how he was hung naked on the cross, how all his bones were broken, etc. This I find really heartbreaking, and it shows he still mostly kept his faith in God. I didn't mean to say his heart was truly overtaken by darkness, only to a small degree for a fleeting moment, in the sense of becoming disillusioned with human life, God, and even himself. Which is hardly the greatest sin and quite natural in this world, never mind with what he went through. And I think his mission was still viewed as successful, as God doesn't expect perfection from us while in this world. This can also be seen as part of his lesson.

His foresight that future generations will be told about The Lord is also interesting. It shows that the god he taught about wasn't really known at all at the time and hadn't been for a very long time. The god that was worshipped seems to have been something completely different. At least to me the vengeful god Yawheh seems like a combination of a personification of those in power at the time, and means of carrying out their will, and the "devil" in the form of "The accuser", or "The one the accuses humans before the throne of God". i.e. dishes out rewards to those who have earned it and punishment to those who deserve that. i.e. an assholish "You have made your bed, now lie in it" attitude without any mercy or empathy.

While the true God on the other hand is full of mercy and will wipe out our sins if we show real remorse and will for rehabilitation. As that would mean there would be no purpose to the punishment, as I feel we are not punished just to suffer, but more as a means of purification and instigation for change. At least that is the only way of seeing it that makes sense to me.

Those who endlessly focus on the gruesomeness of the god described in the Old Testament I feel are like someone banging their head against a brick wall - it pains them but doesn't get them anywhere. The Old Testament is what it is, you can't change that it's been written or that it's still included in the Bible. But you can choose if you want to believe in it as a representation of the true God.

Anyway, those who prefer to focus on the negative sides of religion or spirituality aren't really inclined towards it or ready for it anyway, and it's a waste of time trying to change their mind or convert them. Those that can be has to come around in their own time and those who can't are either primitive, animal-like souls, or more advanced but on a different (negative) path.

So in a sense people can be classified into three spiritual types and they don't get on.

rickolasnice · Feb 4, 2013

But you can choose if you want to believe in it as a representation of the true God.

But that's what it's supposed to be. It's just another part of the huge contradiction the bible really is.. it's full of impossibilities.

NSFW:

Ninae · Feb 4, 2013

rickolasnice said:
But that's what it's supposed to be. It's just another part of the huge contradiction the bible really is.. it's full of impossibilities.

NSFW:

Perfection's Imperfect Revelation

The Bible is supposedly God's perfect Word. It contains instructions to humankind for avoiding the eternal fires of hell. How wonderful and kind of this God to provide us with this means of overcoming the problems for which he is ultimately responsible! The all-powerful God could have, by a mere act of will, eliminated all of the problems we humans must endure, but instead, in his infinite wisdom, he has opted to offer this indecipherable amalgam of books which is the Bible as a means for avoiding the hell which he has prepared for us.

No, no, I don't agree with this and I think it's an expression of human arrogance and ignorance. Though I also often have thougts and feelings like this, I don't see how you could not have. But I think there must be certain laws of Creation that we are unaware of that prevents God for intervening in that way, or he would have.

Probably more causes than one. One I can think of is that we are supposed to fix it for ourselves, or need to bring God into the world THROUGH us, and that is the only way he will put things right. Otherwise we will have failed in our task and with this whole massive project, which on some level we, or our higher self don't want.

Though I struggle to see how it can be worth this extreme suffering, why it can't be more limited, or why it hasn't been put to an end when it has come this far. But I'm certain God and the spiritual world intervenes as much as it can. It's just that they can just do half of the work and we need to do the rest ourselves. Although this attitude is much harder to accept as it puts a lot of the responsibility also on us, but maybe that's what is needed.

rickolasnice · Feb 4, 2013

Did god not create disease? Viruses and bacteria?

God is omnipotent. Of course he could intervene.. Just as he did before.. All though it was to commit mass genocide by flooding the planet.. he did apparently save a boat-full of animals $:\$ Natural disasters, also supposedly God. 8)

So what you are kind of saying; is that if 1 person does wrong, the rest of the world deserves to suffer.. and that God is throwing us a load of problems, to see if we can fix it, if we can't, we're not worth saving.

Ninae · Feb 4, 2013

Just want to add, after struggling with this problem for long and well I finally got the humility and imagination to realise this might be the case.

Though this is BRUTALLY hard to do and I can see why many would like to avoid it. Because from being turned against the world or some higher spiritual authority, with what is essentially some level of anger and hatred, you have to turn it towards yourself and this is SO much more uncomfortable. It will also, for most, bring on great feelings of guilt.

Facing up to the harm you have done to yourself and brought into the world can break your heart and easily kill you. So it's only natural to want to be in denial or dissociate from it in any way you can. This is no joke and nothing to argue lightly about and many won't be able to take being enlightened on this point. So please try to be careful.

rickolasnice · Feb 4, 2013

I'm not sure what you are trying to say? Are you saying that it's easier to believe that God is the one causing problems than to accept that it's actually you (or us)? I know we're causing problems, but there are some things, like natural disasters, that just happen.. And if you believe in the Bible.. it say's that they are all acts of God. The sun, as another example, can cause cancer. There are poisonous animals and plants that kill.. If god created them, why? To kill off a few unsuspecting children? Babies are born with ranges of problems. How can you blame a child for being born with problems?

Ninae · Feb 4, 2013

I only believe parts of the Bible, or believe in it in a very selective way. I tend to lean more towards Eastern religions but also feel there are parts of the Bible that are true, especially the words of Jesus. Though I think there are few brought down in their pure form, there are also some who has a real ring of truth and higher consciousness to them (like the sermon of the mount).

The problem with the Bible is that a lot of it is depressing and hard to take. New Age type philosophy, which basically allows you to choose to believe anything you want, is much softer and more pleasent. But if it's not really the truth is it really doing us any favours? And I don't really believe any religion or belief system is 100% truth, but that most that has had a real impact on humanity has some truth in it, including Christianity. The human soul is very responsive and impressed by spiritual truth, and on some level seem able to pick up on it. This is why any philosophical system need to have some truth in it if it's going to be successful or accepted.

Atheism also has a great many truth and much intelligence in it, and I can partly relate to it though I don't choose to believe in it as my truth. This is how it can be so convincing to many, and I can totally see that, though being confronted with an Atheist really astounds me these days as I can feel God's presence so clearly. And when it has become a matter of perception rather than a matter of belief it completely changes things. When you can perceive something like you can perceive something with your senses, or have acquired "The Sixth Sense" or spiritual sense, you're actually no longer able to deny the existence of God, or the spiritual world, or eternal life, or all those things that sound like madness to someone with no real perception of it.

As for all the horrible things that occur in this world and why they are allowed by the divine presence, that is not something I can claim to be qualified to answear and I haven't really seen any who are, or I would gladly share it. But I think what I said about there being laws of Creation we are unware of comes closest. i.e the laws of the physical world causing natural disasters to happen combined with laws of the spiritual world preventing it from intervening.

I think it's important to keep in mind that Creation, and this world in particular is flawed and not perfect, ourselves included. And that it's partly our job to do something about it. A harsh concept, I know, but at this point I'm unable to imagine anything that makes more sense. Sadly, there is no spiritual teacher I'm aware of that is able to tell us what we want to hear and speak the truth at the same time, and acquiring spiritual truth is just as painful as uplifting. I guess this ties in with the whole idea of duality, which seems to be a reality, so half of it will be depressing to learn.

rickolasnice · Feb 7, 2013

Not aimed at anyone but fits the thread

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_6iss-xq2-E

Tromps · Feb 9, 2013

rickolasnice said:
I'm not sure what you are trying to say? Are you saying that it's easier to believe that God is the one causing problems than to accept that it's actually you (or us)? I know we're causing problems but there are some things, like natural disasters, that just happen.. And if you believe in the Bible.. it say's that they are all acts of God. The sun, as another example, can cause cancer.

Right I agree with you it is our fault for causing problems in the world. You cannot have Good without the Bad. For Good, or something, to even exist it must have an opposite. Duality. Everything is One just two sides of the same coin. In God's case, God is All Good. He intervenes when we allow Him into our world and life. He will not intrude on our own choices or decisions; it is because God Is All Good that he will not force his will onto you. We had the chance to live with God in eternal Heaven, but we wanted our own authority and our own power. The mechanisms that hold life together, gravity, astrology, biology, meteorology the atmosphere and sun as you described; are the only reason life even exists outside of Heaven, without them we would not be here. This universe is perfectly designed by God to give us life and an opportunity for salvation - redemption to reunite us with Him. Like I said, within all of us we were given the opportunity to have life with God under God's Will for eternity in his Perfect - Good Kingdom, but we wanted our own will, our own authority to do things on our own, thus both the positives and negatives came with that external life. What you should be worried about is what you output into this world. The more you know - the more conscience and aware you are of your actions - the more responsible and accountable you will be for your choices. "With Great Power Comes Great Responsibility."

All though it was to commit mass genocide by flooding the planet

OT Scripture stories cannot be taken too literally as naas mentioned. For all we know the world was plagued by wickedness and evil roamed the planet. God saved the few Good Species and whipped out living evil (not their souls) before the world was overtaken by darkness. Genocide is mankind destroying other innocent mankind's life (abortion is a good example of genocide, but I won't get into that). Let me explain the difference. God has created all souls and spirits immortal - eternal - our souls cannot be destroyed -- It would be a paradox if God were to destroy our eternal soul that he created. It is mankind that invites evil spirits into the world not God. God invites us into his Love. Since God created eternal Angels and Spirits to exist with their own authority, some have turned by their own will and thus evil spirits - demons must exist as well. Don't forget - God has infinite mercy on all eternal souls and spirits - whether they are in limbo, purgatory, or in life on a path to Heaven or hell, we are the ones who determine our fate. In the case for the fate of the tragic innocent victims who have died due to evil influences and spirits - do not have excess worry for those lost souls - for it has been said they will be blessed in the highest of the Heavens. Imagine the billions upon trillions of innocent - pure souls in Heaven.

Sometimes Bad Things happen to the world - whether external or internal - we should take them signs for an opportunity to learn - improve - advance - or make change for the Common Good of the future.

casualuser · Feb 9, 2013

Ninae said:
I only believe parts of the Bible, or believe in it in a very selective way. I tend to lean more towards Eastern religions but also feel there are parts of the Bible that are true, especially the words of Jesus.

That is the very problem, no one can believe in every part of the bible because it contradicts itself many times. The massive amount of ambiguity it has on top of those contradictions, makes finding any truth the bible might contain nearly impossible and in turn makes using the bible as a tool of manipulation quite easy. This theme isn't limited to only the bible either, it is present to varying degrees within most, if not all, religious doctrines. That is what makes religion such a poor source for moral truth as it lacks clarity.

Ninae said:
New Age type philosophy, which basically allows you to choose to believe anything you want, is much softer and more pleasant.

What do you mean by "new age type philosophy?" Assuming we have free will, people have always been able to choose to believe anything they want.

Ninae said:
I don't really believe any religion or belief system is 100% truth, but that most that has had a real impact on humanity has some truth in it, including Christianity.

I agree, assuming objective truths exist, no belief system can reflect them perfectly, but to say a certain belief system contains truth because it had a "real impact on humanity" is just ignorant. Any belief put into action has an impact on humanity, the magnitude of that impact is dictated by the number of believers, not any truth the belief may or may not have.

Ninae said:
The human soul is very responsive and impressed by spiritual truth, and on some level seem able to pick up on it. This is why any philosophical system need to have some truth in it if it's going to be successful or accepted.

Where is your evidence for this soul and the special kind of truth it is responsive to? As I said above the success/acceptance/impact a specific belief system has is not dependent on any truth it may hold. The belief that the world is flat was once widely accepted and had a major impact on humanity but that never made it true. The only reason it was so accepted was fear. The fear one may fall of the edge of the world kept people from the actual truth, I would argue the same can be said for religion.

Ninae said:
Atheism also has a great many truth and much intelligence in it, and I can partly relate to it though I don't choose to believe in it as my truth. This is how it can be so convincing to many, and I can totally see that, though being confronted with an Atheist really astounds me these days as I can feel God's presence so clearly. And when it has become a matter of perception rather than a matter of belief it completely changes things. When you can perceive something like you can perceive something with your senses, or have acquired "The Sixth Sense" or spiritual sense, you're actually no longer able to deny the existence of God, or the spiritual world, or eternal life, or all those things that sound like madness to someone with no real perception of it.

Atheism is not a belief, it is a lack of belief. Theism can be comforting, which is why it can be so convincing, and I can understand that. However, being confronted with someone who claims to "feel god's presence so clearly" really astounds me, especially on a website where the primary discussion revolves around mind altering substances. Our minds are incredibly complex and powerful things that can make us feel almost anything (drugs are a prime example of that). Claiming something where there is nothing is madness.

Ninae said:
I think it's important to keep in mind that Creation, and this world in particular is flawed and not perfect, ourselves included. And that it's partly our job to do something about it. A harsh concept

The world is definitely flawed, but why is suggesting that we should fix it a harsh concept? I can tell myself the truth and what I want to hear, no spiritual teacher needed, only the removal of fear.

Thorns Have Roses · Feb 11, 2013

Here's a nice little excerpt, for your consideration:

II Corinthians 3:6 said:
He [G-d] has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

rachamim · Feb 11, 2013

The Divinity of Christ wasn't part and parcel of Christianity until Nicea. The phrases "Holy Spirit," "Son of G-D" and so forth are standard Jewish terminology and have nothing at all to do with claims of divinity. This shows that James the Just was right in wanting to stress Halacha (Judaic Law) in the sect. Practically everything from mainstream Christianity is contrived. In order to win support in the Greco-Roman world "Christians" (actually Jews until the late 2nd Century CE/AD) added beliefs and rituals as needed. Christianity today is basically "Paulism."

The "Universal Christ" comment above? Christ most likely didn't exist but regardless, even the accepted canon shows a creature that was anything but "love, peace and compassion." In Luke he refers to a non-Jewish woman in Sidon, begging for her demon-afflicted daughter to be healed, as a "mangy bitch" (most English versions simply say "dog") who isn't worthy of Christ's teachings. Time and again we hear his message is only for Jews and in perfectly "Old Testament" fashion declares that he has come to turn father against son and son against father. I mean, even from a mainstream Christian perspective, how can anyone imagine him as a cuddly hippy? "Jesus loves you BUT if you don't accept him you will burn in hell for eternity!" Um, sounds like the worst kind of stalker. "Love me of or Ill fuc*en' kill you!!!"

panic in paradise · Feb 12, 2013

material is made to crumble;
the most constant rain, creates new growth,
and crumbles away where roots are most fit to split the earth;
snow flakes create rivers on mountain tops, that shape the mountains base each spring
and that is beautiful.

the destruction we create, as people
is difficult to excuse at all.

rickolasnice · Feb 15, 2013

panic in paradise · Feb 15, 2013

his whole problem was the lack of faith in ourselves.

______
must be one of those who thinks prayer answers all questions, externally, ricko.

rickolasnice · Feb 15, 2013

I'm a nice person.. I don't believe in Jesus..

Do I have him in me, just by being a loving person?

Christianity, Islam, Judaism, etc: Religion

Bluelighter

Bluelighter

Bluelighter

Bluelight Crew

Bluelighter

Bluelighter

Bluelighter

Bluelighter

Bluelighter

Bluelighter

Bluelighter

Bluelighter

Bluelighter

Bluelighter

Bluelight Crew

Bluelighter

Bluelighter

Bluelighter

Bluelighter

Bluelighter