Christianity, Islam, Judaism, etc: Religion

[Ninae]

Great answear. God doesn't want us to be like robots with no mind of our own but to choose God and resist evil for ourselves and become something HIGHER than that. And since we're here we have to suppose that is our desire.

I think the first angels who were created, and those who have never left heaven, were like perfect copies or extensions of God with no possibility to do evil. They would also be more likely to get lost in evil and have no resistance to it in this world as they lack experience with it and don't know how to deal with it (even if in the beginning they would be very pure). Unlike human souls who have extensive experience with evil and know what the consequences of getting into it are.

I think that is the difference between human and angel souls, or angels who have never been through the reincarnational cycle, and what is meant by that we will eventually become "Higher than angels" which there is said to have been all this fuss in heaven about. Or that someone that was originally created as a lowly animal-like soul with all sorts of potential for evil could work their way up to become something higher than souls who were created perfectly pure and divine from the beginning. And some of the prouder angels did not like it but it was God's new plan and there was nothing they could do about it.

At least that's the only logical explanation I can see, even if it's hard to accept because the process is so long and hard and when you're in the middle of it you may wish you'd never started. What is really hard is I don't think it's possible to turn back. You can probably take a break as long as you want, but that will only delay the process, so that is not desired either.

I know this is not a very comforting answear, so I don't know, you can only throw your hands up in the air. But rebelling against God doesn't seem to be a good idea either.

 

[Ninae]

By the way, this might be of interest to some:

http://www.phoenixsourcedistributors.com/J002.pdf

New to me, and I haven't had the chance to look at it much yet, but my immediate intuition leans on the side of "Yes".

 

[casualuser]

I understand the line of thinking that god didn't create evil, he created beings and gave them free will which lead to some choosing evil. But, he did all of this knowing how it was going to turn out, so why create those evil choosing spirits/souls in the first place? Why not only create souls and spirits that while they can still make mistakes will always learn from them in the end and choose "correctly"? Furthermore, what makes one soul different than another; if we are all created with an equal opportunity at salvation, what makes certain souls knowingly choose wrong while others seem to have no problem in choosing correctly?

If someone does not believe in free will, then explain to me in depth how you are typing the keys on your keyboard.

I can't say I believe in free will. As to how I'm pressing the keys on my keyboard, my brain sends signals to my fingers to depress the keys that correspond to the letters of the words I chose to represent my thoughts. But the choosing of these specific words(and the thoughts they represent) was no more of a freely made decision than was the decision to get up and use the bathroom before I started typing. They are both just outputs of the constant calculations that my brain performs, the former may appear more like a freely made decision only because the calculations involved were much more complex and thus not immediately comprehensible by my conscious thought but neither "choice" can be considered to be free as they are only outputs of calculations over which I have no control. I think Dr. Manhattan says it the best:

"Everything is predetermined, even my responses... There is no future. There is no past. Do you see? Time is simultaneous, an intricately structured jewel that humans insist on viewing one edge at a time, when the whole design is visible in every facet... We are all just puppets. I'm just a puppet that can see the strings."

 

[Tromps]

But, he did all of this knowing how it was going to turn out, so why create those evil choosing spirits/souls in the first place? Why not only create souls and spirits that while they can still make mistakes will always learn from them in the end and choose "correctly"?

What you're saying sounds as God would be determining a souls fate in a way, I don't believe that's what God's plan is. Also, if evil doesn't exist, what "mistakes" will there be to learn from? If evil didn't exist, it would be a perfect world and there would be no mistakes to learn from that you speak of, unless we're on the wrong page talking about some kind of different "mistakes" . 8(

Maybe we should define what "mistake" means to us first

You're right in that God did do all of this knowing how it was going to turn out. He knew which souls would turn against him and which ones would strive for him, but to not create the souls he knew that would go against him, there would be no reason for the good souls he knew that would reach salvation on their own to go through this life, and he might as well just put them immediately in heaven, except they wouldn't 'know' anything, and they wouldn't had been made stronger from resisting evil. We would be mindless 'beings' that didn't get to choose anything for ourselves if it was all predestined, because for us to make choices at all the opposites have to exist.

That's really the only reason I can logically see why God gave us free will to make our own decisions at every given moment; to resist evil, and as Ninae put it, that we may become to know God better for ourselves, be more like him someday, and eventually be closer to him and each other in heaven. I can't say I know it all, but sometimes it takes not understanding to have faith. God has a perfect plan for us, and I trust everything is happening for a reason to bring a perfect ending, or he would not had created us.

I can't say I believe in free will. As to how I'm pressing the keys on my keyboard, my brain sends signals to my fingers to depress the keys that correspond to the letters of the words I chose to represent my thoughts. But the choosing of these specific words(and the thoughts they represent) was no more of a freely made decision than was the decision to get up and use the bathroom before I started typing.

So you acknowledged there was a certain element of you choosing something. But sorry, comparing that choice as no different from using the bathroom is a horrible example. Using the bathroom is a biological necessity. You don't need to be having this debate with me, but you are choosing to do so

"Everything is predetermined, even my responses... There is no future. There is no past. Do you see? Time is simultaneous, an intricately structured jewel that humans insist on viewing one edge at a time, when the whole design is visible in every facet... We are all just puppets. I'm just a puppet that can see the strings."

Of course there is past, we have witnessed history, and of course there is future, even meteorologists can predict the future with relatively fair accuracy. Our experience in the "now" is all that we can ever "currently" experience, but to deny that a "past" or "future" exist is a bit silly imo. Look at the time stamps a couple posts ago and you will see there was a past. You can learn about the past going through a history class if you really want to know the past.

I can agree we are somewhat of puppets. He say's can see the strings, but that's it? All he can do is see them? I would surely say certain strings we have control over, and other strings we don't have power over. But if you're a puppet with no control over any of the strings, what's controlling them? We should be able to agree for a puppet to move, something has to be controlling it? It doesn't move on it's own.

 

[rickolasnice]

I agree with panic in paradise. Furthermore I want to add, although you may not consider your behaviors wrong, the actions themselves may still be detrimental to yourself, others, or the community. For example, say a 6 year old were stumble upon a gun, he may have seen guns glorified in the media and didn't think guns were bad to use on people, not knowing it was wrong to kill, so he shoots and kills another little kid (its happened before). Now it would be hard to consider him a grave sinner, since he didn't know what he was really doing, but the action/behavior still has a negative impact on society. Even though you may be doing something you do not believe is wrong, the actions and behaviors may still have negative consequences for yourself or others.

I assure you.. my sex life is neither detrimental to me nor society.. how could it be? I'm assuming that you are assuming I sleep around with random girls?

 

[Tromps]

I'm not assuming anything, nor do I want to know. I didn't say they are detrimental in your case I said they may be.

Are you committed to this person and plan on spending the rest of your life with your partner? If not... depending on how the "break-up" goes it could have harmful psychological consequences for either of you, if you've become so emotionally attached to each other.

Not speaking about you personally, but in general, these behaviors and over-sexual relationships outside the context of marriage have led to a host of cultural and societal problems, resulting in people committing suicide, killing their partners, drug addictions, eating disorders, rises in STDs, and a host of other psychological problems, now that affects all of society.

Or say you were to accidentally have a child, how well prepared are you both to raise a child? Depending on how/if you decide on raising that child, now society is being involved. Look at the rates of abortions and how many traumatized young teenage mothers there are raising children due to these kind of behaviors, or are on welfare using public tax dollars to support their behaviors. All I'm trying to say is the behaviors of a few could have detrimental effects to society in general.

Unless you're partner is same sex? Really it isn't my business and panic and paradise said it well.

but, by this statement, you have encouraged some of your arguments pertaining to our forth&back. many diseases and situational psychological disturbances are caused by those actions -- even drug abuse after the fact from a decreased level of self-esteem or trauma encountered by practicing such behaviors.

^ You say whaaa?

I swear you're not making any sense..

What actions?

What do you mean by "you have encouraged some of your arguments pertaining to our forth&back" ?

Do you still not understand what panic in paradise is saying?

Whatever the case may be, just please be careful and Think about the possible outcomes before you give into your emotions. We all should.

 

[rickolasnice]

You speak as if sexual partners are the only ones that go through bad break ups.. Tell me again.. what's the percentage of marriages that end in divorce?

In the UK only 10% of marriages are likely to see a 60th anniversary. 90% of marriages will end in divorce.

Sex is not the only thing that would contribute to a bad break up.. in fact.. it's not even really that much of a contribution to a bad break at all.. I'd say people that go through divorce are a lot more likely to suffer when it happens.

Again, couples that have children BEFORE marriage are no less likely to be good parents than those that are married. Accidental pregnancy happens in marriage too Children and both partners are just as likely, if not more likely to suffer as a consequence to a bad divorce.

And no I don't see what Panic is saying.. not after you consider this ^^^

Marriage doesn't stop stupidity.. I've never got a girl pregnant (there are ways to prevent that these days ya know?) I've never contracted an STD, either.. I don't sleep around.. And I'm not stupid.

Could you please tell me how being homosexual could cause psychological problems.. Your attitude towards them might.. but that's your problem.. especially seeing as how you are actually gay

 

[Thorns Have Roses]

So I'm reading Letters from the Earth, Mark Twain's scathing/humorous appraisal of Christanity. You guys would love it it, check it out some time. Here's a little excerpt:

Spoiler: Mark Twain

I will tell you a pleasant tale which has in it a touch of pathos. A man got religion, and asked a priest what he must do to be worthy of his new estate. The priest said, "Imitate our Father in heaven, learn to be like him." The man studied his Bible diligently and thoroughly and understandingly, and then with prayers for heavenly guidance instituted his imitations. He tricked his wife into falling downstairs, she broke her back and became a paralytic for life; he betrayed his brother into the hands of a sharper, who robbed him of his all and landed him in the almshouse; he inoculated one son with hookworms, another with sleeping sickness, another with gonorrhea; he furbished one daughter with scarlet fever and ushered her into her teens deaf, dumb and blind for life; and after helping a rascal seduce the remaining one, he closed his doors against and she died in a brothel, cursing him. Then he reported to the priest who said that that was no way to imitate his Father in Heaven. The convert asked wherein he had failed, but the priest changed the subject and inquired what kind of weather he was having up his way.

Not speaking about you personally, but in general, these behaviors and over-sexual relationships outside the context of marriage have led to a host of cultural and societal problems.

I call bullshit, where is your evidence?

Or say you were to accidentally have a child, how well prepared are you both to raise a child? Depending on how/if you decide on raising that child, now society is being involved. Look at the rates of abortions and how many traumatized young teenage mothers there are raising children due to these kind of behaviors, or are on welfare using public tax dollars to support their behaviors. All I'm trying to say is the behaviors of a few could have detrimental effects to society in general.

Teen pregnancy rats are higher in conservative states (with abstinence only sex education, or no mandated sex ed courses at all), lower in those with more HR oriented programs.

Also, might some of the difficulties associated with this phenomenon (the traumatized teen-parents you mention with no support of their existence) be associated with harsh judgment by Christian-folk who abhor the idea of childbirth out of wedlock and think the use of contraceptives to be sinful?

]Could you please tell me how being homosexual could cause psychological problems.. Your attitude towards them might..

This x1000, as someone with LGBT family members, I'm very thankful we live in a civilized part of the country.

Also, if evil doesn't exist, what "mistakes" will there be to learn from?

So we're better off with evil? By that logic it's better to be a homeless orphan than a child in a well-adjusted home, because then you can learn to overcome adversity. Better to be victim to sexual abuse so you can learn to get past it. Etc. etc. It's a monstrous argument, if you ask me.

 

[Tromps]

Please don't put words in my mouth, I never said being homosexual caused psychological problems in my previous post. I was referring to the possibility of you having children, in which case if you were gay that wouldn't be possible, nothing further, except for you misinterpreting my post.

90% of marriages will end in divorce.

Source?

Again, couples that have children BEFORE marriage are no less likely to be good parents than those that are married.

Is that suppose to be a fact, or your opinion? Because there are dozens of studies that have proven children raised with a married mother and father are more likely to have academic success, less likely to suffer from depression or psychological problems, and have a higher chance for living above poverty.

Since you live in the UK - I'll cite a UK news outlet:

Growing up with married parents vastly increases a child’s prospects of escaping poverty, a study has revealed.
A stable home was found to raise a child’s chances of escaping the poverty trap by 82 per cent.
When equally well-educated families were compared, marriage increased a child’s chance of living above the poverty line by 75 per cent...

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2204263

That kind of contradicts what you think about parents who raise children "before marriage are no less likely to be good parents then those that are married". Unless you can find a source that backs up your claim? I think I would rather trust a government study then what rickolasnice says on bluelight, no offense

And that's just one of many studies that have proven children raised in a traditional family structure have higher chances for success, I can find more if you really want but I would rather not be bothered with the time since it has already been proven to me from multiple sources. If you don't believe it, I challenge you to find a study that contradicts what I am sourcing, instead of making up your own facts.

Accidental pregnancy happens in marriage too

I can't say I quite believe in "accidental pregnancy" , sex at it's most fundamental level is for the purpose of creating new life, if you're having sex, the intent should be for procreation and you should expect there's a certain element of fertilization that could possibly take place. So if a man and women have sex and the women found out she was pregnant, it's barely "accidental", unless they were totally clueless that having sex might cause pregnancy. 8)

I come from a large catholic family of 10 brothers and sisters, and you will usually see large catholic families, because we don't believe in contraception, and we should always be open to bearing new life, God's Will. The more life and souls to glorify the Kingdom of God the better :D

And no I don't see what Panic is saying.. not after you consider this ^^^

Consider what again?

 

[Thorns Have Roses]

I never said being homosexual caused psychological problems in my previous post.

But you have said it is a sin, and belief that an act is a sin necessarily leads a good number of people to discriminatory behavior.

Fun debating we're having aside, there's no good reason for a rational human being to accept the dogma of Catholic church, or any organized religious system. Dogmatism creates so much ill-will and suffering; while I'm all for Jesus, St. Paul, etc. from an allegorical standpoint (taking into account historical circumstances) because they teach wonderful things, literalism gives rise to all sorts of nasty shit.

 

[rickolasnice]

Your study is for stable house-holds..

There is no mention of how many of those uneducated, poor kids come from DIVORCED parents.. Marriage does not = stable environment. Just as unmarried does not = unstable. Of course it's better for kids to grow up in a household where both parents are together.. but marriage just doesn't actually matter. The study also doesn't take into account where the parents were at on the poverty line before marriage.. it might just be that richer people are more likely to marry? It also makes sense for single parents to be poorer.. 1 source of income vs 2? I'm in no way suggesting people should have kids no matter their stability (emotional and financial) but marriage has nothing to do with it.

The U.S. research also found that just 7 per cent of children in families below the poverty line had parents who were married to each other.
However 37 per cent of children in families below the poverty level were in households where their parents were not married.

So where are the other 56% of families? You can't be *kind of* married. It's either you are or you're not. The study screams bias.
I guess thats what you get for sourcing from the daily mail 8)

And sorry i misread my source when I said 10% of marriages will succeed.. It's actually 55%..

The Office for National Statistics (ONS) found 45% of marriages will end in divorce before a couple's 50th anniversary if 2005 rates continue, with almost half of these splits occurring before couples reach 10 years of marriage.

I misread this source: http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2008/mar/27/britishidentity.divorce

Namely this passage:

The study, which analysed divorce and death rates from 2005, concluded that 10% of married couples are likely to celebrate a 60th wedding anniversary.

Here's a couple of related articles on marriage and divorce:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/22/movein-before-marriage-no_n_1372687.html

And a possible reason why divorce rates are falling (aside from the fact less people are getting married)

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/31/divorce-study-the-most-fa_n_2377494.html#slide=1925573

So you were raised Catholic, and became Catholic.. You know if you were raised Muslim, you'd be Muslim, right?

And btw.. this is where you said it:

Unless you're partner is same sex? Really it isn't my business and panic and paradise said it well.

Originally Posted by panic in paradise
but, by this statement, you have encouraged some of your arguments pertaining to our forth&back. many diseases and situational psychological disturbances are caused by those actions -- even drug abuse after the fact from a decreased level of self-esteem or trauma encountered by practicing such behaviors.

Btw.. strict religious beliefs / parents / society cause more than their fair share of psychological disturbances

 

[casualuser]

Also, if evil doesn't exist, what "mistakes" will there be to learn from? Maybe we should define what "mistake" means to us first

Indeed maybe we should. To me doing something "evil" entails doing that something for the sake of evil. There's a difference between doing something "wrong" out of selfishness or ignorance but still believing it wouldn't hurt anyone else and doing something with the sole intent of causing harm to others. I'm sure an omniscient and omnipotent being would be able to design a universe where mistakes can be made and even evil can exist though never permanently so in the end every soul learns to be "good".

God has a perfect plan for us, and I trust everything is happening for a reason to bring a perfect ending, or he would not had created us.

So a perfect plan includes countless souls existing in eternal suffering? If everything is happening for a reason to bring said perfect ending how is everything not then predestined?

So you acknowledged there was a certain element of you choosing something. But sorry, comparing that choice as no different from using the bathroom is a horrible example. Using the bathroom is a biological necessity. You don't need to be having this debate with me, but you are choosing to do so

It is not a question of having a choice it's a question of having free choice. Just as I chose to have this debate with you I chose to use the bathroom instead of holding it because I thought that was the better choice to make at the time(I choose to debate because I feel it's better than staying silent). When ever we make a choice it would seem that said choice was the best one we could have made at the time but what makes one choice seem better than another is no more under our control than our feelings that using the bathroom is better than holding it. Like I tried to explain before the more complex the choice(i.e. choosing to debate with you) the more influences there are that go into that choice(making it seem like a freely made choice) but what those influences are and how strongly each affects the outcome were not chosen by me(let alone freely).

Of course there is past, we have witnessed history, and of course there is future, even meteorologists can predict the future with relatively fair accuracy. Our experience in the "now" is all that we can ever "currently" experience, but to deny that a "past" or "future" exist is a bit silly imo. Look at the time stamps a couple posts ago and you will see there was a past. You can learn about the past going through a history class if you really want to know the past.

In a way there is a past and a future but the differentiation we make between the two is only a result of our limited perspective. What is past and what is yet to come only results from our observations at the present, which is constantly changing, but if everything is predetermined(as Dr. Manhattan was suggesting) than time is meaningless, merely a creation of our minds to separate one observation from another.

Since there exists in this four dimensional structure (space-time) no longer any sections which represent "now" objectively, the concepts of happening and becoming are indeed not completely suspended, but yet complicated. It appears therefore more natural to think of physical reality as a four dimensional existence, instead of, as hitherto, the evolution of a three dimensional existence.

I can agree we are somewhat of puppets. He say's can see the strings, but that's it? All he can do is see them? I would surely say certain strings we have control over, and other strings we don't have power over. But if you're a puppet with no control over any of the strings, what's controlling them? We should be able to agree for a puppet to move, something has to be controlling it? It doesn't move on it's own.

Indeed, the strings are pulled by the laws of the universe, just as we are confined in our actions by the laws of physics(we can't just jump into the air and start flying) so too are the molecules and mechanisms in our brain which in turn control our actions.

A man can surely do what he wills to do, but cannot determine what he wills.

 

[rickolasnice]

 

[TheAppleCore]

I think there's just a lot of misunderstanding around this. The idea that a good god could allow evil to flourish is one of the greatest mysteries of life and just can't be simplified in that sense.

I feel the best explanation is probably that God extends his hand to us, but it's up to us to reach out for it, and he doesn't actually take it for us.

Nah. Good and evil are necessary for each other because things can only exist in relation to their opposite, like front and back, long and short.

 

[rickolasnice]

Remembering that "good" and "evil" are both man made constructs..

 

[TheAppleCore]

^ I would say they're more "evolution-made" constructs.

 

[rickolasnice]

...

 

[rickolasnice]

For the creationists out there:

http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evosite/evohome.html

 

[Dosier]

All religions share a common thread. They are all trying to get to the most high god.

 

[rickolasnice]

Question for Christians..

Why is it that the Gospels of John say Jesus wasn't born in bethlehem, the gospels of Matthew claim Joseph and Mary were in bethlehem all along (escaping King Herod) while the gospels of Luke claim that Joseph and Mary went to bethlehem just before the birth because Caesar Augstus decreed a census for tax purposes and told everyone to go to their home city (Because Joseph was from David's bloodline, they had to go back - More on this in a bit)

When they heard these words, some of the people said, "This really is the Prophet." Others said, "This is the Christ." But some said, "Is the Christ to come from Galilee? Has not the Scripture said that the Christ comes from the offspring of David, and comes from Bethlehem, the village where David was?"

Now after Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judea in the days of Herod the king, behold, wise men from the East came to Jerusalem, 2 saying, “Where is He who has been born King of the Jews? For we have seen His star in the East and have come to worship Him.”

3 When Herod the king heard this, he was troubled, and all Jerusalem with him. 4 And when he had gathered all the chief priests and scribes of the people together, he inquired of them where the Christ was to be born.

5 So they said to him, “In Bethlehem of Judea, for thus it is written by the prophet:

6 ‘But you, Bethlehem, in the land of Judah,
Are not the least among the rulers of Judah;
For out of you shall come a Ruler
Who will shepherd My people Israel.’”

In those days a decree went out from Emperor Augustus that all the world should be registered. This was the first registration and was taken while Quirinius was governor of Syria. All went to their own towns to be registered. Joseph also went from the town of Nazareth in Galilee to Judea, to the city of David called Bethlehem, because he was descended from the house and family of David. He went to be registered with Mary, to whom he was engaged and who was expecting a child.

Why would Joseph have to return to David's home town if they were born almost 1000 years apart?

And historians agree that the census happened in 6AD. After Herod's death.. The census was also a local one - not a one for the entire empire.