Christianity, Islam, Judaism, etc: Religion

[rickolasnice]

To be honest I agree with a lot of Jesus' teachings.. but he said himself the Old Testament still stands true..

God is Jesus, Jesus is God.. God repeatedly ordered his follows to murder, rape and steal from people who didn't accept him as the LORD.

You're picking and choosing which parts you like and which parts you don't.

 

[Raasyvibe]

^ Hey sorry i've been late getting back to you. Every time you refute my posts i've got to think of a complicated response. It gets time-consuming lol

The idea that Jesus says the OT stands true is a great misconception which atheists often dwell on. This question came up in another thread and I gave a big response to this often misunderstood verse. I even included the meme that you posted on this thread, to show how atheists spread false information about God and the bible because of their own lack of understanding and ignorance of scripture.


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originally posted by Raas_2012, in another forum
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See, at the age of 21 God came into my life. I felt it would be a smart idea to purchase a bible. When I started reading the OT I was pretty shocked. Then I read one line, where God had sentenced someone to be burnt at the stake. I threw the bible across the room. Threw it.

Y'see, i'm not any different than you. I too hate the brutality of our ancestors, I too despise "bigotry, hate and barbarism", and to read about this in Gods holy book I too found shocking. And I too, would never consign myself to something which condones such brutality. So please, do not claim some moral superiority over me.

The obvious reaction to these barbaric verses is to resent God? Resent the bible?

I've done it. You've done it. And hundreds of other cyber-atheists post things like this, all over the Internet

^^^ They've identified a lot of vulgarity in Gods book, and now are blaiming God. Which is the very easy, primary thing to do.

However, the more advanced thing to do. The more progressive, intelligent apporach is to question "Why is vulgarity in God's book, when God is supposed to be about peace and love" to look into it and search for answers.

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The theological answers behind the vulgarity of the OT, have been given time and time again, century after century, but people who are biassed against God don't pay attention at their own convenience. And just dwell on the barbaric verses of the OT. So here we go again, I'll answer this age old question for you, yet again:

_____

Why is Jesus. The ultimate nice guy. The guy so painfully nice, he's even asking God to forgive those who were currently torturing him to death. Why is this example of God... have anything to do with this disgusting barbaric book known as the Old testament?



First off Jesus was no different to us, just like me and you, he opposed the OT law. He opposed the brutality. He was on the side of humanity.

"The scribes and the Pharisees brought a woman who had been caught in adultery, and placing her in the midst they said to him, “Teacher, this woman has been caught in the act of adultery. Now in the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. So what do you say?”

Jesus of course went AGAINST what was directed in the "law of moses" and said "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone" (Saving the womans life)

And he continously preaches against what is written in the OT, time and time again. Here's a load more examples of his opposition towards the coarse OT:

"You have heard that it was said to those of ancient times, 'You shall not murder'; and 'whoever murders shall be liable to judgment.' 22 But I say to you that if you are angry with a brother or sister, you will be liable to judgment; and if you insult a brother or sister, you will be liable to the council; and if you say, 'You fool,' you will be liable to the hell of fire"

"You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' 44 But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you

"Again, you have heard that it was said to those of ancient times, 'You shall not swear falsely, but carry out the vows you have made to the Lord.' 34 But I say to you, Do not swear at all, either by heaven, for it is the throne of God,

"You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.' 39 But I say to you, Do not resist an evildoer. But if anyone strikes you on the right cheek, turn the other also;"

There's many more examples to be found also, i'm stopping now with consideration of the size of this post.

Apart from continuously preaching against all these old laws, Jesus himself physically DISOBEYED them. Jesus and His disciples did not observe the strict Jewish rules against doing any work on the Sabbath

"1One sabbath while Jesus was going through the grainfields, his disciples plucked some heads of grain, rubbed them in their hands, and ate them. 2But some of the Pharisees said, "Why are you doing what is not lawful on the sabbath?" 3Jesus answered, "Have you not read what David did when he and his companions were hungry? 4 He entered the house of God and took and ate the bread of the Presence, which it is not lawful for any but the priests to eat, and gave some to his companions?" 5Then he said to them, "The Son of Man is lord of the sabbath." 6On another sabbath he entered the synagogue and taught, and there was a man there whose right hand was withered. 7The scribes and the Pharisees watched him to see whether he would cure on the sabbath, so that they might find an accusation against him. 8Even though he knew what they were thinking, he said to the man who had the withered hand, "Come and stand here." He got up and stood there. 9Then Jesus said to them, "I ask you, is it lawful to do good or to do harm on the sabbath, to save life or to destroy it?" 10After looking around at all of them, he said to him, "Stretch out your hand." He did so, and his hand was restored. 11But they were filled with fury and discussed with one another what they might do to Jesus"

...and then throughtout the NT, that vile OT get's put into perspective again and again

"by this Jesus everyone who believes is set free from all those sins from which you could not be freed by the law of Moses"

15We ourselves are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners; 16yet we know that a person is justified not by the works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ. And we have come to believe in Christ Jesus, so that we might be justified by faith in Christ, and not by doing the works of the law, because no one will be justified by the works of the law.

Yet...despite this ABUNDANCE of information.... which clearly shows that the OT is not the precise word of God and NOT to be taken too literally....and jesus opposes it....

Atheists, such as yourself.... overlook ALL of this, and focus on just one verse. Just one verse which reads as if Jesus is a proponent for the OT

"17 But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away, than for one stroke of a letter in the law to be dropped"

(ok, technically it's 2 verses because jesus's words are actually repeated in Matthew 5:17-18... but he's only quoted once)

17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets; I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not one letter, not one stroke of a letter, will pass from the law until all is accomplished

Now, considering jesus has just spent so much time disobeying and preaching against the law... a bit of common sense tells us that in this verse, when he said "The Law".... he's probably not referring to "the law" of the OT where slaves are stoned and woman are beaten (and all the rest). Atheists interpret it that way, because they want to disprove God and make him out to be a callous tyrant. But simple common sense tells us that cannot be a correct interpretation, because Jesus has done so much to change and defy "The law of Moses".

So what does he mean by "the law", what cannot change lest heaven and earth pass away!?

The answer is found in Matthew 23:23 -

Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint, dill, and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith

Thats what Gods law is. justice, mercy and faith. That is what Jesus is referring too. The original law before the pharisees and Sadducees misinterpretted it and corrupted it for their own means. For instance what is told in the 10 Commandments. Do not kill, Do not Steal, Honour mother and father "etc would be considered part of the original law of God, passed down to the prophets (in this case Moses).

It is my understanding that Gods original law was just, but man misinterpretted and corrupted it. It became more politically motivated, intertwined with the common brutality of that age (2000-3000 ago). It was the Pharisees and Sadducees that started adding hundreds of ceremonial rules.

And Jesus (The good guy, who hates brutallity like we do), as you can imagine, was pretty irrate with them:

]Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you clean the outside of the cup and of the plate, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. 26 You blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup, so that the outside also may become clean. 27 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs, which on the outside look beautiful, but inside they are full of the bones of the dead and of all kinds of filth. 28 So you also on the outside look righteous to others, but inside you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness.

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So when you consider God as this evil tyrant and we Christians are fools taken in by it all, you are way off. You have a misunderstanding of Christiannity, and you misunderstand a lot of Christians. With a little more understanding and research you would realise Christiannity is a religion of peace and goodwill. If theres a verse you don't understand, look for an answer


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End of quote
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Hope that sheds some light on how Jesus percieved the Old Testament and it's vulgarity.

 

[rickolasnice]

Haven't got time for an in depth read / reply (sorry.. i will get round to it)

First off Jesus was no different to us, just like me and you, he opposed the OT law. He opposed the brutality. He was on the side of humanity

Right.. So Jesus is God and God is Jesus.. do you not see a massive contradiction between the 2 sides of himself? So what is it? Surely Gods view is THE view.. It's either Jesus' dad or Jesus himself, no?

I'll get back to you on the rest later

Like i said though, I don't mean any offence in what I'm saying.. And I was here, you are right in part, to slate religion. But I'm also hear to learn other's views and what they have to say about it. I'm always willing to learn and I'm always willing to admit I was (/could be) wrong.

 

[Raasyvibe]

And I was here, you are right in part, to slate religion.

lol no. The post wasn't written to you. It was a response to someone else in another forum, hence the fact it said "posted by raas_2012 in another forum" I just pasted it over because it's relevent here. Saves me having to do all the typing again

I've now edited the quote, to make it more applicable to your question.

 

[casualuser]

I don't deny that Jesus had some good things to say and I wouldn't have hardly any problems with most Christians if they stuck to only what Jesus said but the problem is most don't. And since Jesus said he was against the old laws why is it still included in the bible? I mean you could argue history of the religion and the creation story ect. but the average person does not have the intellectual capabilities to sort through all of the arbitrary and sometimes contradictory statements in the bible. The average person takes things at face value, which reflects a larger problem within society as a whole, those in power(of whatever system, religion, government, ect) have the responsibility to guide them properly, though more often than not they just warp it to fit their own agendas, especially within subjects that are unclear and left up to individual interpretation(such as religion).

 

[Shrooms00087]

^
That's a universal symptom. Even atheists take things at face value, such as the complete rejection of religious texts. Atheists are involved in a cellular ingroup to which the Other is the persons of religious sects. As often happens the Other is the reason for contention and the bonding agent for the ingroup. But Atheism gets its morals from a "pragmatic" point of view which often takes the form of "survival of the fittest" and personify the ethics of evolution. Most prominent atheists are at heart Statists which makes sense, since, science requires large sums of donations/capital.

 

[rickolasnice]

^ Atheism doesn't = worshipping science. I've never donated to science.. Well.. maybe the british heart foundation or something like that? But spending money on science is how we know things, it's how we know what the air we breathe is made up of, what red blood cells do, how we have running water, how you are able to read this. A lot of science is how to help people.. Medicine, pace makers, clean water, efficient food supply. Without science we would return to a 3rd world country. We would go back to the middle-ages.

I got my morals from my parents.. who happens to be a lovely people. Science doesn't teach morals.. Where are you getting this stuff? It's also natural for humans to have a little something could EMPATHY and COMPASSION, LOVE and all that jazz. Jesus didn't give us these things, they were already there. Ask anyone if they believe murder is wrong. 99.999% of people would say yes, it's wrong.. ask them whether or not they believe in Jesus.. a lot (if not most of those people) would say no.

And no.. I'm not strictly a statist.. Who do you think should run the world, then? The church? Or do you wish for Anarchy (in the true sense of the word)?

And wait, what? You don't believe in evolution?

 

[Shrooms00087]

^ Atheism doesn't = worshipping science. I've never donated to science.. Well.. maybe the british heart foundation or something like that? But spending money on science is how we know things, it's how we know what the air we breathe is made up of, what red blood cells do, how we have running water, how you are able to read this. A lot of science is how to help people.. Medicine, pace makers, clean water, efficient food supply. Without science we would return to a 3rd world country. We would go back to the middle-ages.

You missed the entire point. I did not once say "worship science". The statement did not rely on you donating to science. I am not questioning how capitalism or science works I am questioning how they work together in the same instance you would with the church and the flock. It's funny you bring up 3rd world conditions, it's more often you hear of the church and their stance against condoms than it is to hear about the conditions of capital accumulation.

I got my morals from my parents.. who happens to be a lovely people. Science doesn't teach morals.. Where are you getting this stuff? It's also natural for humans to have a little something could EMPATHY and COMPASSION, LOVE and all that jazz. Jesus didn't give us these things, they were already there. Ask anyone if they believe murder is wrong. 99.999% of people would say yes, it's wrong.. ask them whether or not they believe in Jesus.. a lot (if not most of those people) would say no.

Science doesn't immediately teach morals, no. But it often gets reflected upon when viewing the world "realistically". Sorry I did not say that religion gives you these things as if they weren't already innate. That is a Hitchen's argument which I think is so obvious it isn't really worth an argument. The bible is not the source of innate things. It is just a vessel to build upon innate things. Like most philosophical systems.

And no.. I'm not strictly a statist.. Who do you think should run the world, then? The church? Or do you wish for Anarchy (in the true sense of the word)?

And wait, what? You don't believe in evolution?

You not being a 'strict statist' isn't really the issue nor is my opinion of how things should run. I think the State is a good creation with the principle of democracy however I think capitalism is more at fault in the run of things.




*Oh and yes I "believe" in evolution.
And to stop you before you ask;
I do not believe in the notion of God, the judge Judy of the sky.

 

[rickolasnice]

Yeeeaahh I'm tired

Fair do's.

 

[Tromps]

Ask anyone if they believe murder is wrong. 99.999% of people would say yes, it's wrong.. ask them whether or not they believe in Jesus.. a lot (if not most of those people) would say no

What's your point? Of course most people would see murder wrong on a basic humane level. You're right it is natural. I sure hope we would of been created so that even if we never heard of God or accepted God we would still have a moral compass of what is right and wrong.

We are talking about religion in general here. If you want hard facts when you look at the population of believers in the world;

Religions:
Christian 33.39% (of which Roman Catholic 16.85%, Protestant 6.15%, Orthodox 3.96%, Anglican 1.26% ), Muslim 22.74%, Hindu 13.8%, Buddhist 6.77%, Sikh 0.35%, Jewish 0.22%, Baha'i 0.11%, other religions 10.95%, non-religious 9.66%, atheists 2.01% https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/xx.html

33.39% of the worlds estimated 7+ billion population considers themselves Christian. That is almost 2.5 billion people on the planet; more than any other group of people in the world, would say they bow to Christ as Lord. Even more so 95%+ of the worlds population are people with religious practice, that kind of divine revelation should not be ignored. Those aren't cooked up numbers either, the current CIA webpage is an accurate and reliable source.

 

[casualuser]

What's your point? Of course most people would see murder wrong on a basic humane level. You're right it is natural. I sure hope we would of been created so that even if we never heard of God or accepted God we would still have a moral compass of what is right and wrong.

We are talking about religion in general here. If you want hard facts when you look at the population of believers in the world;


33.39% of the worlds estimated 7+ billion population considers themselves Christian. That is almost 2.5 billion people on the planet; more than any other group of people in the world, would say they bow to Christ as Lord. Even more so 95%+ of the worlds population are people with religious practice, that kind of divine revelation should not be ignored. Those aren't cooked up numbers either, the current CIA webpage is an accurate and reliable source.

If everyone already has a good moral compass to know right from wrong, why then do we need gods teachings?

Everyone once thought the earth was flat and the center of the universe, did that make it so?

 

[rickolasnice]

^ That's pretty much what i was getting at. A lot of people seem to think the human race is wicked and cruel without Jesus.. I'm saying not true.. The world is just as wicked and cruel WITH Jesus.

And my "most people will probably say no" was in reference to the area a live in.. and even if most people say yes.. they don't actually know anything about him, never go to church, never read the bible and don't practise what he preached.

What kind of divine revelation are you talking about? If you were raised in Israel you'd be Jewish. If you were raised in Indonesia you'd be Muslim.

 

[rickolasnice]

"1One sabbath while Jesus was going through the grainfields, his disciples plucked some heads of grain, rubbed them in their hands, and ate them. 2But some of the Pharisees said, "Why are you doing what is not lawful on the sabbath?" 3Jesus answered, "Have you not read what David did when he and his companions were hungry? 4 He entered the house of God and took and ate the bread of the Presence, which it is not lawful for any but the priests to eat, and gave some to his companions?" 5Then he said to them, "The Son of Man is lord of the sabbath." 6On another sabbath he entered the synagogue and taught, and there was a man there whose right hand was withered. 7The scribes and the Pharisees watched him to see whether he would cure on the sabbath, so that they might find an accusation against him. 8Even though he knew what they were thinking, he said to the man who had the withered hand, "Come and stand here." He got up and stood there. 9Then Jesus said to them, "I ask you, is it lawful to do good or to do harm on the sabbath, to save life or to destroy it?" 10After looking around at all of them, he said to him, "Stretch out your hand." He did so, and his hand was restored. 11But they were filled with fury and discussed with one another what they might do to Jesus"

So it still unlawful to work on the Sabbath? For people working in a common shop, for people at petrol stations, etc?

Like I said.. I believe in a lot of Jesus' teachings. He was obviously a clever, nice guy. But there's no reason to believe he was any son of any God.

It seems to me you've taken snippets of the bible and pieced them together to make it what you want it to be.. When it's actually full of contradictions and impossibilities. You can take 1 quote from somewhere and another quote from somewhere else to justify it all you want, but that's not what it actually says.

Jesus was not written in any historical texts for over one hundred years after his death.

 

[rickolasnice]

Good read:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-lose/where-did-the-bible-come-_b_893765.html

 

[Tromps]

He was obviously a clever, nice guy. But there's no reason to believe he was any son of any God.

You seem to of acknowledged He existed, but you do not believe the miracles and powers He had? Are thousands upon thousands of witnesses lying to you? Was their vision bad? What incentive would they of had, to fabricate and falsely create this story, if they knew they would die in a few years anyways and it didn't matter? Jesus preached against lying, in fact He preached it is a sin, yet you think the people immediately following Him would turn around and lie? What you are claiming is at the epitome of conspiracy theory.

 

[rickolasnice]

Of course he existed..

Imo he exists as a fictional character.. But I accept there could have been a man who tried to spread peace and love.. Son of God? No. Miracles? No.

Where are these witnesses? Like i said.. Jesus wasn't mentioned in historical texts or about 100 years after he died.. The bible is bits and pieces of different peoples stories.. Some bits were kept as it suited the religion.. It kept believers believing.. Others were discarded because it didn't fit with what they were trying to do.

I believe the bible was either created to control people.. An early book of law, so to speak. Or a fairytale that got twisted into "fact". Or someone trying to improve the world. The word of God? Why would God waste his time? He is above that, surely? No. It's not the word with God. If it was the word of God.. it proves that he (it) was (is) evil. Pure fckin Evil.

Water into Wine? Why did Jesus need water to turn into wine? He could surely make it appear from nothing? Healing the blind? Those kind of stories easily happen.. Like the part of Braveheart where he says something like "And he was 10 feet tall.. And shot fireballs out of his ass".. Chinese whispers and exaggerations getting misconstrued as fact. Muslims have a different book. It disagrees with yours. Who are you to say yours is right and theirs is wrong?

 

[Tromps]

Water into Wine? Why did Jesus need water to turn into wine?

He is taking what is good and making it excellent. It is symbolic in a way that he takes what is good given to us in our lives and turns it excellent through God's grace alone.

Muslims have a different book. It disagrees with yours. Who are you to say yours is right and theirs is wrong?

I never said they are wrong. In a most literal sense, we worship the same all mighty God, descendants of Abraham. Anyone who worships or prays to God, Allah, Yahweh, especially Muslims 5 times a day on their hands and knees, have respect in my eyes. Though we would disagree upon God's Way that has been prescribed and the best means to salvation. A Muslim would probably not agree with me that God has a human example/mediator, Jesus Son of God, for us to look to. And I wouldn't agree with everything done by their prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him. Though there is evil extremism, and corruption on all sides, but that is mans fault. Anyone who truly believes they are doing what is right, I am not to judge. Mortal sin is only doing what your conscience believes to be wrong, but you still do it.

The word of God? Why would God waste his time? He is above that, surely? If it was the word of God.. it proves that he (it) was (is) evil. Pure fckin Evil.

God does it all for us not for Himself and when we shine we glorify Him. If you have offspring, and want to raise them to a good standard, do you consider that a 'waste of time' ? Now imagine that x10. And we have already been over this regarding Old Testament law, raas_2012 did a good job explaining it, yet you still seem think it applies universally in all scenarios.

You're picking and choosing which parts you like and which parts you don't.

From my view, you seem to be picking and choosing things you like and don't like or understand about God.

 

[rickolasnice]

You seem to be picking and choosing what parts of my posts to reply to, now.. I cba.

Show me a single piece of evidence that there is a god.

 

[chasingabee]

you dont need evidence when you have faith. duh. (sorry for bringing down the standard of the posts)

 

[Tromps]

Of course he existed..

Imo he exists as a fictional character.. But I accept there could have been a man who tried to spread peace and love.. Son of God? No.

I just want to ask, do you believe he was crucified or do you think scholars are wrong about that? All I want to add is, if he wasn't actually who he said he was and was a normal human, why would he willingly go through that death for nothing? Imo if he wasn't Son of God, he wouldn't had cared to sacrifice his life for nothing. All he had to do was say he wasn't Son of God and the excruciating torture would stop, but he didn't/couldn't because of his Father's will and he endlessly persevered no matter what they did to him. Any normal human wouldn't had been able to go through that and after it all still have compassion for the people who were horridly torturing him, unless he was divinely inspired that is.

Shortly after he was crucified, a powerful earthquake struck the pharisee's temple and it was destroyed. I don't believe in coincidences anymore, especially when there are so many it builds such a compelling sign.

I didn't respond to all of your post, because most of this we have been over in this thread and other people have given you good answers, no reason to be repeating things.

- If you will not hear the truth and recognize when it is spoken, no one can tell you truth.