Random MSN Gibberings LXXI: My kingdom for those headphones

[Jabberwocky]

There comes a time when you have to admit defeat & just shout fuck it & leave. It's not like the polis are gonna leave one or two there & say "Ahh, you know what? You beat us." They've finally papped most of them out by the sounds of it.

defo. i usually have a lot of sympathy for minorities being suppressed by THE MAN. but none for these guys. i can't even work out why they got so many appeals when they're so unambiguously illegally camped.

 

[Mr Smokes Blunts.]

Depends if you like your women with false teeth and zimmer frames... although I wouldn't put it past BL to have a few of those people around!

 

[parttime crackhead]

defo. i usually have a lot of sympathy for minorities being suppressed by THE MAN. but none for these guys. i can't even work out why they got so many appeals when they're so unambiguously illegally camped.

Exactly. I originally had sympathy for them. But when I think about it, if I was to build a house in my back garden the council would be round like "GET THAT FUCKIN' DOON! NOW!" there would be no 10 year negotiation. It would just be "No planning permission? GET IT DOON!". People need to be treated equally & it was one of the council guy's points of "If we let this happen then how could any council in the country possibly enforce any planning restrictions?" that swayed me, because there was no argument against that.

My mate's just came up with a belter of an idea to get them off the scaffolding. Electrify it lol.

 

[Mr Smokes Blunts.]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CBmdYRyuN28

Snatch pretty much sums it up for me :D How are they even gypsies if they live in caravans that are concreted down any way? It seems like they just want to behave like complete scum and not pay any taxes, whilst having all the benefits of a fixed location. No one wants these people in their area. Everytime they roll into my home town there is inevitably a crime spree, and the mess they leave behind is a fucking joke.

 

[parttime crackhead]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CBmdYRyuN28

Snatch pretty much sums it up for me :D How are they even gypsies if they live in caravans that are concreted down any way? It seems like they just want to behave like complete scum and not pay any taxes, whilst having all the benefits of a fixed location. No one wants these people in their area. Everytime they roll into my home town there is inevitably a crime spree, and the mess they leave behind is a fucking joke.

I know that is a shocking stereotype & you should be prepared for the backlash of folk on here giving you pelters for it but any direct personal experience I have is exactly as you've said it.

I wouldn't quite go as far as "complete scum" right enough lol.

Some of the travellers have lived on Dale Farm for ten years. That's longer than I've stayed here. They're a bit shite at travelling aren't they?

 

[Myshkin]

How are they even gypsies if they live in caravans that are concreted down any way?

'Gypsies' are a minority ethnic group whose designation isn't at all dependent on whether they live in a caravan or a mansion. The relatively high concentration of gypsy communities in the UK is due largely to the comparative level of tolerance historically afforded them by both the authorities and the public.

Not all travellers are gypsies and not all 'gypsies' are travellers.

I always think this kind of tolerance is a point of pride for this country, but then looking at people's attitudes in cases such as these I start to wonder how we ever arrived at that point.

 

[YellowPolkaDotHalo]

exactly. I originally had sympathy for them. But when i think about it, if i was to build a house in my back garden the council would be round like "get that fuckin' doon! Now!" there would be no 10 year negotiation. It would just be "no planning permission? Get it doon!". People need to be treated equally & it was one of the council guy's points of "if we let this happen then how could any council in the country possibly enforce any planning restrictions?" that swayed me, because there was no argument against that.

My mate's just came up with a belter of an idea to get them off the scaffolding. Electrify it lol.

lol

 

[Mr Smokes Blunts.]

I know that is a shocking stereotype & you should be prepared for the backlash of folk on here giving you pelters for it but any direct personal experience I have is exactly as you've said it.

I wouldn't quite go as far as "complete scum" right enough lol.

Some of the travellers have lived on Dale Farm for ten years. That's longer than I've stayed here. They're a bit shite at travelling aren't they?

I knew i'd be pounced on by people on here for having a dislike for gypsies... I'm sure there are some really nice gypsies out there, I just haven't met them. The only ones i've met have beaten the shit out of complete strangers for a laugh, caused the local swimming pools to be closed for however long they decide to inhabit the town I live in because they won't wear trunks and/or they see it as bath time and they scum up the pool, and everything from tables out the front of pubs to lawnmowers from peoples back gardens go missing. And the police can't do shit about them because traveller sites are no go areas for them.

If they want to be stationary i'm sure the government will oblige by giving them a council house.

 

[parttime crackhead]

I always think this kind of tolerance is a point of pride for this country, but then looking at people's attitudes in cases such as these I start to wonder how we ever arrived at that point.

Can you see the point that in some cases it could be called discrimination against the rest of the population though? The fact that certain sections of society (in this case "travelers") are allowed to blatantly break laws that you or I would not be allowed to break.

And as MSB just put it above, traveler sites are "no go areas" for police in a lot of areas. I know round here anything that happens with gypsies/travelers the local police will not touch it.


Lets remove the ethnicity, gypsy/traveler thing from it all together. Lets treat them as equals. Lets call them "people who are illegally living on a bit of land & breaking laws left right & centre". Should they be afforded some tolerance? Or should they be treated exactly as anyone else would be?

 

[Mr Smokes Blunts.]

'Gypsies' are a minority ethnic group whose designation isn't at all dependent on whether they live in a caravan or a mansion. The relatively high concentration of gypsy communities in the UK is due largely to the comparative level of tolerance historically afforded them by both the authorities and the public.

Not all travellers are gypsies and not all 'gypsies' are travellers.

I always think this kind of tolerance is a point of pride for this country, but then looking at people's attitudes in cases such as these I start to wonder how we ever arrived at that point.

I was under the impression we ended up with large amounts of gypsies//travellers/pikeys because of Hitlers attempts to exterminate them? And also, they sort of merged with the new age drop out movement that spread across the UK in the last few decades. They are hardly a completely seperate minority, they are just Irish people who decided to live on the road in the 1800s. They aren't like the Romanies who are in fact a race. There are no genetic seperations. The only difference between them and a normal Irish person is their culture. There are a few anomalies in their DNA compared to a normal Irish person because they have inbred in their community so much, which has caused massive problems in their gene pool. I think disliking their culture which brings absolutely zero benefit to this country, and brings a whole lot of misery to anyone who is within a 20 mile radius of wherever they've set up, is perfectly reasonable.

I can't begin to imagine how horrible it would be for anyone who lives near Dale Farm to have had to put up with them for over 10 years...

 

[Myshkin]

Can you see the point that in some cases it could be called discrimination against the rest of the population though? The fact that certain sections of society (in this case "travelers") are allowed to blatantly break laws that you or I would not be allowed to break.

Probably true, but then again other people's traditional ways of life aren't suppressed by post-industrial society in the way that gypsies (i.e. those whom the current laws were brought in to protect) are.

We're dealing with generation upon generation of tradition here. Ironically we're also talking legal compliance on a drug-related forum.

MSB - The references to 'comparative tolerance' were pretty much shorthand for Hitler without invoking Godwin's Law, though Hitler was far from the first and Gypsies (along with other disaspora peoples, and it's handy you mention the Irish) have been persecuted throughout Europe for centuries.

I would've expected a little more understanding of alternative lifestyles here and a little less stereotyping.

 

[Mr Smokes Blunts.]

Can you see the point that in some cases it could be called discrimination against the rest of the population though? The fact that certain sections of society (in this case "travelers") are allowed to blatantly break laws that you or I would not be allowed to break.

And as MSB just put it above, traveler sites are "no go areas" for police in a lot of areas. I know round here anything that happens with gypsies/travelers the local police will not touch it.


Lets remove the ethnicity, gypsy/traveler thing from it all together. Lets treat them as equals. Lets call them "people who are illegally living on a bit of land & breaking laws left right & centre". Should they be afforded some tolerance? Or should they be treated exactly as anyone else would be?

They aren't even actually a seperate ethnicity at all, so why they were allowed to play that card is beyond me. They only seperated off into their own little group about 200 years ago... Obviously if you or I decided we'd buy a large bit of land and start building monstrosities all over it, decided to raise our children so that they were basically ferrel, and our sole source of income was benefits and crime, then we would be afforded zero tollerance. But if we did it in a gang of 50-100 thugs, with the backing of thousands of thugs all over the country, then we might be able to use our might to behave the way they do.

 

[parttime crackhead]

Probably true, but then again other people's traditional ways of life aren't suppressed by post-industrial society in the way that gypsies (i.e. those whom the current laws were brought in to protect) are.

We're dealing with generation upon generation of tradition here. Ironically we're also talking legal compliance on a drug-related forum.

MSB - The references to 'comparative tolerance' were pretty much shorthand for Hitler without invoking Godwin's Law, though Hitler was far from the first and Gypsies (along with other disaspora peoples, and it's handy you mention the Irish) have been persecuted throughout Europe for centuries.

I don't really see the irony. It's OK to murder people now then? Because I like the odd ecto I should agree that paedophiles are fine to roam about primary schools?

Generation upon generation of tradition? I bet that exists in the KKK as well. They alright to cut about doing what they like then?

Tradition has fuck all bearing on it in my eyes. The majority of these people are no longer "travelers", they just like to live outside the rest of society. Which in a way is fair enough, but any personal experience I have is of incredibly violent people who cheat, rob & steal as a main way of getting by. Any other group of people in modern society who do this are not tolerated by anyone. But if you happen to rock up in a caravan & talk in a dodgy accent then it's all good.

Now, I don't think they are ALL like this, but a vast majority are. It's all really besides the point anyway. My point is just that they should be given no special treatment. They should be treated the same as the next man.

 

[Myshkin]

I don't really see the irony. It's OK to murder people now then? Because I like the odd ecto I should agree that paedophiles are fine to roam about primary schools?

Generation upon generation of tradition? I bet that exists in the KKK as well. They alright to cut about doing what they like then?

That's a poor attempt at reductio ad absurdum. All I'm saying is that you talking about planning regulations is pretty surreal considering your anti-authoritarian stance on most other matters.

As for the KKK, my defence of the rights of one minority hardly means I'm going to support the actions of a group that practises organised persecution and intolerance of other minorities, does it?

 

[Mr Smokes Blunts.]

Probably true, but then again other people's traditional ways of life aren't suppressed by post-industrial society in the way that gypsies (i.e. those whom the current laws were brought in to protect) are.

We're dealing with generation upon generation of tradition here. Ironically we're also talking legal compliance on a drug-related forum.

MSB - The references to 'comparative tolerance' were pretty much shorthand for Hitler without invoking Godwin's Law, though Hitler was far from the first and Gypsies (along with other disaspora peoples, and it's handy you mention the Irish) have been persecuted throughout Europe for centuries.

Yes, but they are mostly Romanies, not the Irish travellers we have to contend with who most agree have their origins in the 1840s famine in Ireland. We might not want to round up and kill them because that is disgusting, but the problem we have here is that an entire group of people functions entirely off of crime and benefits in equal measure. I wouldn't have a problem with them living their 'traditional' lives if it wasn't at the expense of everyone else. Why the hell should I pay for them to rob me blind? I can't think of many other groups of people who have come to Britain to live who have traditions and cultures which are so undesirable. The one thing I can think of is when Hindu women get burnt alive if their husbands die before them, and we have gone all out to try and stamp out that practice. Some cultures and traditions simply aren't worth saving.

 

[Mr Smokes Blunts.]

That's a poor attempt at reductio ad absurdum. All I'm saying is that you talking about planning regulations is pretty surreal considering your anti-authoritarian stance on most other matters.

Legal systems don't work when they are one rule for one group and one rule for another... You can be against planning regulations that are currently in place, and also be against how unequally they are enforced. It's like how it is totally ridiculous that if Prince Harry gets caught smoking a reefer he'll be let off without question, but we'll end up getting a caution. I might not think anyone should get a record for it, but if i'm going to get one then everyone should. That's fair.

 

[parttime crackhead]

Legal systems don't work when they are one rule for one group and one rule for another... You can be against planning regulations that are currently in place, and also be against how unequally they are enforced. It's like how it is totally ridiculous that if Prince Harry gets caught smoking a reefer he'll be let off without question, but we'll end up getting a caution. I might not think anyone should get a record for it, but if i'm going to get one then everyone should. That's fair.

Sam - That's explained it far better than my admittedly piss-poor attempt.

Basically what I was saying was why should they be allowed to break particular laws with impunity when I can't?

 

[SpecialK_]

I knew i'd be pounced on by people on here for having a dislike for gypsies... I'm sure there are some really nice gypsies out there, I just haven't met them. The only ones i've met have beaten the shit out of complete strangers for a laugh, caused the local swimming pools to be closed for however long they decide to inhabit the town I live in because they won't wear trunks and/or they see it as bath time and they scum up the pool, and everything from tables out the front of pubs to lawnmowers from peoples back gardens go missing. And the police can't do shit about them because traveller sites are no go areas for them.

If they want to be stationary i'm sure the government will oblige by giving them a council house.

This has pretty much been my experience with them too. I've never came across one that I would say deserves the right to do what they do. About 3 years ago a group of them parked their caravan right outside the City Centre and caused havoc for days. Obviously they could stay there until they were moved on and thanks to the way things it work it took about a week or two. They ran about calling people spawn of the devil, pick pocketing, vandalising and from common stereotype of them being people who aren't afraid to flash their knives people weren't able to do anything. Of course they got poor treatment back, every night their back windows were smashed but then again it was asked for and what would they expect doing something like that in a place with paramilitaries.

I hate all this Big Fat Gypsy Wedding shite too, although entertaining to watch on TV I think it's a real biased (positive view on Gypsys) and half the shit that's said is all for the cameras. Then again most other TV shows are similar, but I think it's stuff like this that has made people more supportive of them in the Dale Farm incident. Nobody else gets so many warnings or such kind treatment and for the havoc they as a group (if you could call them that) cause makes it even more of a reason to not warn them. I wonder how much trouble they've caused in that area in the past few years because even if they move in round your local area here for a month you'd have to nail everything to the floor.

 

[Myshkin]

Some cultures and traditions simply aren't worth saving.

So who's the arbiter of what's 'desirable' or 'undesirable'? And how do you propose stopping a culture in its tracks without persecuting individuals?

You're still stereotyping by making the association with crime every time. There's bad in every community.

I find the consumer society and mass media much more of a threat to my sense of wellbeing to be honest. When I get to the stage I can casually stereotype people and get so incensed over such then I'll hope for a change in the laws regarding voluntary euthanasia rather than planning.

 

[Jabberwocky]

unfortunately every time i've come into contact with gypsies they have justified the stereotypes. will still judge any future one i meet on an individual basis.

know someone who worked on 'conflict resolution' trying to mediate between gypsies and councils (though abroad). gave up and went back to more traditional negotiations cos they were so utterly frustrating in every way. the authorities were trying to provide education and decent health and social care ffs. found that really really sad.