Bupe Suboxone/Buprenorphine Mega Thread and FAQ v17.0 + v18.0

[YellowsOnDeck]

I highly highly doubt it, that would be a form of descrimination...

 

[Chriso10238]

I hope someone can provide some insight here. If someone is on a liver transplant list and has been on a suboxone program for years, would that limit their chances of being chosen for transplant? This is assuming the person has been clear of all other drugs for years.

Methadone has been noted for its hepatoxicity (liver damage due to high levels of ALT and other relevant enzymes in the liver produced in order to break down substances, often seen in people who have sensitivity to or have problems with alcohol use) however any results of clinical studies of liver damage due to suboxone use are confounded by the high prevalence of Hep C and chronic liver disease in the suboxone using population, due to lifelong, usually intravenous, substance abuse. This may or may not be your case and relevant liver transplant policies would vary by jurisdiction and between health service providers. You would have to discuss these issues with your treating doctor in order to fully understand your or your friend's position.

Here is a link to a properly referenced internet article relating to liver toxicity and buprenorphine, http://livertox.nlm.nih.gov/BuprenorphineBuprenorphineNaloxone.htm, a brief glance at this suggests that buprenorphine is no more damaging to the liver than other substances the liver needs to break down, as with anything, length of use and level of dose will be a critical factor in the amount of damage, if any, that might be sufferred as a result of buprenorphine administration.

IV use, particularly of suboxone pills would have to be the most damaging to the liver due to the binders etc that inevitably enter the blood stream when the drug is used in this way. Suboxone is notorious for clotting blood even after filtering with a micron filter, you can observe this effect yourself by mixing a little of your blood with a filtered buprenorphine solution, you will note that the blood almost immediately clots on contact with the solution, it almost looks like red sand. Buprenorphine pills administered IV "stick" to organs and within the circulatory system potentially causing chronic disease or organ failure over time.

Hope this gives you a little insight. Best to ask your doctor or treating hospital/clinic about their policies surrounding maintenance pharmacology and liver transplant waiting lists, one would assume the list is triaged so those who are at the highest risk of dying will be treated first and foremost, then the patients current and past behaviours would be assessed in light of how successful the procedure will be in the long run, should a patient be characterised as abusing substances then doctors/clinicians/administrators might be hesitant to offer a transplant until the behaviour is dealt with conclusively.

There are also alternatives to a full transplant due to the remarkable regenerative ability of the liver. Doctors are able to transplant a small portion of healthy liver tissue into a patient and given ideal conditions the liver will regenerate and become fully functional, however in order for this to be successful one must live like a saint, body as temple so to speak. It would probably be best for the person to get off suboxone if their liver is in such poor condition as to require a transplant in the first place as any drugs, even those prescribed for ordinary medical conditions, must be broken down by liver enzymes and if the liver is not fully functional the person will no doubt have higher concentrations of toxins that result from the metabolism of the drug.

 

[Tommyboy]

http://www.bluelight.org/vb/threads/705205-Zubsolv?

There's the Zubsolv thread for those of you talking about that.

 

[Pill__Head]

does shooting suboxone while on maintenainace actaully do NOTHING... i mean there must be some feel you get from it, esp. considering how many times more potent IV route..I want to know the truth, is it just the bs about HR people not wanting people to iv pill ect.? or do you actaully get noothing from shooting suboxone

 

[Tommyboy]

does shooting suboxone while on maintenainace actaully do NOTHING... i mean there must be some feel you get from it, esp. considering how many times more potent IV route..I want to know the truth, is it just the bs about HR people not wanting people to iv pill ect.? or do you actaully get noothing from shooting suboxone

I've never seen anyone claim that you don't feel it when IVd. You get the same feeling you would if you took the sublingual equivalent of that dose.

Due to it's ceiling effect you're not going to feel more with doses beyond a certain amount, and side effects worsen at those higher doses (hence people preferring lower doses of it) so it's not like you're going to feel more from it with an increased dose or switching ROAs to a more efficient one.

So it comes down to how much you feel bupe when on maintenance, and how various doses effect you. Convert that into the potency of IVing it vs sublingually takingit and you have your answer.

When it comes down to it though, it's duration is a lot shorter when IVd which is why it's not preferable to use that ROA on maintenance. If you are taking it less frequently and are trying to stretch it out more than IVing may make sense, but keep in mind that it won't last nearly as long but you use less to get the same effects. If that's worth it to you and you are familiar with the risks then you can make an educated decision on how you want to take it.

 

[Pill__Head]

I've never seen anyone claim that you don't feel it when IVd. You get the same feeling you would if you took the sublingual equivalent of that dose.

Due to it's ceiling effect you're not going to feel more with doses beyond a certain amount, and side effects worsen at those higher doses (hence people preferring lower doses of it) so it's not like you're going to feel more from it with an increased dose or switching ROAs to a more efficient one.

So it comes down to how much you feel bupe when on maintenance, and how various doses effect you. Convert that into the potency of IVing it vs sublingually takingit and you have your answer.

When it comes down to it though, it's duration is a lot shorter when IVd which is why it's not preferable to use that ROA on maintenance. If you are taking it less frequently and are trying to stretch it out more than IVing may make sense, but keep in mind that it won't last nearly as long but you use less to get the same effects. If that's worth it to you and you are familiar with the risks then you can make an educated decision on how you want to take it.

I think stomorrow morning ill throw a lil anti histimine in with my sub shot nd see how it goes...or feel rather.

 

[fullycaffeinated]

I hope someone can provide some insight here. If someone is on a liver transplant list and has been on a suboxone program for years, would that limit their chances of being chosen for transplant? This is assuming the person has been clear of all other drugs for years.

I would think that the only way you would not be eligible for transplant would be if suboxone would make you more likely to "reject" a new organ. I don't know of any reason offhand that it would, but you may want to look into that.

 

[The Doc.]

I think stomorrow morning ill throw a lil anti histimine in with my sub shot nd see how it goes...or feel rather.

Don't shoot up the pill take it orally unless your a big risk taker. Even the suboxone Its stupid how your coating your organs with binders and fillers for no reason I mean you have a big script so your not in need of making them last so what's the point? There is no other point even saying your doing it to conserve the sub isn't really justifying it cause the half life is reduced so much causing you to redose more often.

 

[mahi]

I strongly recommend anyone thinking of going thee Sub route to search for Tommyboy and read his advice. As no one type of treatment works for all Tommyboy has consistently given people level headed advice on the use of Subs. His advice is well grounded and common sense. So, search his threads and look up some advice, you won't go wrong.

 

[mahi]

I started using heroin only a year ago. I'm 51 yrs old. Separated from my wife and daughter for almost two yrs. the last time I used was about a week ago. I went to a suboxone dr yesterday. He gave me a prescription for 7, 8mg strips. He said to take 1/2 a strip to start and 1/2 in twelve hours if needed. I got home and took 1 right away. Fifteen minutes went by and then took another. Fifteen more minutes, I was puking my guts out and very very high. I think it was god saying "hey dumbass! What the heck are you doing!" Woke up this morning feeling a little better. But with a bit more humility. Big mistake I made. Don't make the same mistake. I want to stop using but the only thing I could think about doing after I got home was getting high. Comments, verbal scolding, help would be appreciated.
Thanks

well this is basic addict behavior, don't listen to Doctor and dose as you see fit. You did an incredible amount of Subs to start. You will find it also harder to quit Subs at such a high starting dose. The higher the dose the longer the taper. This is an old post but I guarantee you didn't quit and either relapsed or now addicted to Subs. Guess you thought you could just guzzle a bunch of Subs and poof everything is fine. Doesn't work like that and never has.

 

[devil_doll]

Can sumbody tell me why ppl say its a bad idea to iv suboxone? I do it all the time when i dont have phine &nothin bad has ever happened. I never do more than 1quarter by myself but thats only cuz i cant stand the taste which i get in the bak of my throat when i do larger amounts. I fckn hate the taste of that shit. When i firsted started shootin it i was nervous cuz id heard so much bad shit bout doin it that way but it was fine. No rush but it actually fckd me up for awhile. Id even get the nods lol but now that ive been shootin it for a long time i just feel normal for the most part i just continue to shoot it cuz im a junkie &when im out of morphine it keeps me sane i guess to still put sumthn in my arm. Sad i know but true

 

[Jesusgreen]

Can sumbody tell me why ppl say its a bad idea to iv suboxone? I do it all the time when i dont have phine ¬hin bad has ever happened. I never do more than 1quarter by myself but thats only cuz i cant stand the taste which i get in the bak of my throat when i do larger amounts. I fckn hate the taste of that shit. When i firsted started shootin it i was nervous cuz id heard so much bad shit bout doin it that way but it was fine. No rush but it actually fckd me up for awhile. Id even get the nods lol but now that ive been shootin it for a long time i just feel normal for the most part i just continue to shoot it cuz im a junkie &when im out of morphine it keeps me sane i guess to still put sumthn in my arm. Sad i know but true

It's the pill binders and dyes that are bad to IV. They'll put a lot more strain on your veins, and IVing is already putting a bunch of strain on them. Also if you miss shots, all the insoluble filler substances will just sit there under your skin forming nasty abscesses, you can easily end up with the leftovers from your IV use scarring you for life if your technique isn't 100%, and if you get an infection as a result you could even lose part of a limb.

Although most people won't see the worst side effects right away, or in some cases even at all if their technique is spot on, they should be a major concern and enough to at least make you consider switching ROAs.

Plugged is like 60% as strong (in terms of feeling, and about 70% in terms of bioavailability) as IV but lasts like 2.5-3x longer, so kind of works out better in the long run if you're just looking to conserve Bupe. IV you'll tend to redose more often than you might need to because of the compulsiveness of the ROA, and end up using more than plugging as a result - though you'll still use significantly less than sublingual or nasal, and if you're able to avoid that frequent redosing then IV can last you slightly more than plugged too. It's a question of whether that slight extra is worth the potential harm you're doing.

If you must IV Suboxone at least get the best filter you can, a cigarette filter/cotton won't do, get a micron/wheel filter.

 

[Alice_Chipper]

I've done some research re: shooting suboxone (due to my line of work) & people are having no major issues when they inject the film. They shake it up in a barrel to disolve it before injecting & so far there have been no reports of moderate to major damage as there is when people inject the tablets without a wheel filter. If you take the time & have the right equipment you can definetly inject your suboxone.

 

[Lorne???]

^^^ discrimination is allowed for organ transplant consideration(to an extent).

ALKS-5461:

Has anyone ever heard of this? It is a new combo drug, with buprenorphine and samimorphan(?) It is being investigated for treatment refractory depression. The secondary component is an opioid antagonist that exclusively block Mu receptors, which theoretically blocks all "fun" effects from buprenorphine.

I'm skeptical though; it would née to be damn powerful to block buprenorphine, and it would need a decent sublingual BA. But has anyone else heard of it?

The drug again, is experimental and is called ALKS-5461.

 

[Numb19]

^ yes I've heard of it, actually even before hearing about that I remember reading about the antidepressant properties of bupe (and opium was used since the turn of the century to treat depression):

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1749-6632.1982.tb39483.x/abstract

Yeah a substance called samidorphan is added to bupe, and apparently this blocks only the u-receptor and not delta, kappa or noci. It was also researched for alcohol/cocaine addiction.

Ironically Psychiatric Times wrote an article stating that bupe is "only a mildly abusable drug"...I lol'd.

 

[adder]

I've recently been trying to taper down my Suboxone dose. I've successively lowered it to 2mg a day quite quickly thanks to DXM. The problem is I am now much more constipated and obviously I get more central opioid effects. My plan was to completely get off it, but I've realised that it's going to be much easier if I switch to a short-lasting full agonist. A low dose of buprenorphine is actually almost like any other full agonist because of norbuprenorphine. Certainly there will be as much buprenorphine bound to opioid receptors and the effects may not be exactly like those of full agonists, but it doesn't really matter when you want to quit, the withdrawal is terrible. It may be less pronounced than withdrawal from a full agonist like morphine, but it's essentially a nightmare with the long half-life of the drug and its metabolite. I don't think I have strength now to continue tapering down. I've really decided that I want my normal life back again, so I'm not happy at all with the stronger opioid effects, because they're dragging me back in. I guess that I'm going to wait a few months, because the only full agonist I could get now is heroin from the streets, which is ridiculously expensive and of low quality, too low to smoke it and I definitely don't want to i.v., that would be counter-productive. Something like dihydrocodeine would be perfect, I think, but I will see what my options will be. There is no way I could control my buprenorphine intake at 1mg or 0.5mg doses to be able to get off and then use ibogaine. Yesterday I took my 2mg dose and then I took another 2mg, and I was in a partial nod until the morning...

Buprenorphine is the ideal maintenance drug for the pharmaceutical industries to market - not making you high in higher doses, so it can have more social acceptance and awfully terrible to quit at the same time. A partial agonist in higher doses, a mix of a full agonist and a partial agonist in lower doses, 2 in 1, just perfect.

 

[Tommyboy]

Can sumbody tell me why ppl say its a bad idea to iv suboxone? I do it all the time when i dont have phine ¬hin bad has ever happened. I never do more than 1quarter by myself but thats only cuz i cant stand the taste which i get in the bak of my throat when i do larger amounts. I fckn hate the taste of that shit. When i firsted started shootin it i was nervous cuz id heard so much bad shit bout doin it that way but it was fine. No rush but it actually fckd me up for awhile. Id even get the nods lol but now that ive been shootin it for a long time i just feel normal for the most part i just continue to shoot it cuz im a junkie &when im out of morphine it keeps me sane i guess to still put sumthn in my arm. Sad i know but true

There are a few reasons why it's not a good idea. For one, it's a lot easier to go into precipitated withdrawals from IVing your first dose of bupe after stopping other opiates compared to the liklyhood of it from taking it sublingually. For example one may be fine doing their bupe induction 18 hours after their last opiate if they start with say 2mg sublingually, but if they were to try that with say 0.5mg IV then they would probably go into precipitated withdrawals.

The other reason is that it basically defeats the purpose of the drug if you are using it for maintenance since it's whole appeal is it's long Half-Life allowing once daily dosing, or twice a day when taking lower doses. If you try to maintain while IVing Tue drug you will need to dose way more often.

Lastly, it would be a bad idea to IV bupe if you are using it to taper since it would basically be the same thing as quitting a short acting opioid.

The benefits of IV bupe only seem to be for making a small amount last longer between getting more, or if you are only using it for recreationand want to get by with taking less, although you would need to take it more often to increase the duration.

In the end most people find that the benefits of IV bupe don't outweigh the negatives associated with possible IV complications or the other downsides previously outlined in my post.

Personally I wouldn't do it unless wasn't physically dependent on the drug and just wanted to use it occasionally one night a week or something.

 

[PKPro]

does shooting suboxone while on maintenainace actaully do NOTHING... i mean there must be some feel you get from it, esp. considering how many times more potent IV route..I want to know the truth, is it just the bs about HR people not wanting people to iv pill ect.? or do you actaully get noothing from shooting suboxone

I have been on maintenance now for the past 6 months, i started on Subs and switched (upgraded really) to Zubsolv. I for one, get a really nice buzz when i decide to IV my Zubsolv, i have heard similar things from multiple other people that have switched as well. Its odd because theres technically no difference in Subs and Zubs, apart from the inactive ingredients, but who knows they may have something to do with it. All i know is that in comparison to subs, they break down easier, filter easier, and actually allow me to cop a nice buzz, akin to taking a roxy 10 back in the day when i was in the shit doing full agonists. Enough to notice, though not nearly enough to nod. Add a little sleepinal and boom you got yourself a little rush with it too hah, anyway i don't suggest you follow in my footsteps if you wanna keep your veins (they'll collapse real quick with IV antihistamines) and health, IVing pills and antihistamines ain't exactly healthy haha

 

[fullycaffeinated]

Just poppin in to say hi, conversation has been really slow around these parts lately!!

I've gotten to the point where I can't seem to do a damn thing to catch a buzz off bupe. It's been 6 months now on maintenance. Started at 16, moved up to 20 VERY briefly, but I've been dosing less than 6 mg/day for 4 months, except the 2 days prior to appts.

Smoked some weed for a couple days because I had 32 days between appts this month, and DAMN did I miss weed! My bupe dr won't let it go, as a matter of fact he is now ONLY testing for weed and bupe, I haven't popped a dirty for anything else since week 1. I'm hoping maybe in a few more months he'll just stop testing...

On the bright side, since bupe no longer does anything for me except these random occurrences where I get a slight buzz, I've been able to stockpile very well. I have enough for at least 2 years right now... It does seem to work as an antidepressant, which is the only thing keeping me on it really...

 

[The Doc.]

Hey your still stuck on 6mgs eh jeez that'd weird you are having troubles getting lower than that usually its pain free up until 1mg or so then it takes a bit to stabilise on the low doses but once stable you will feel the highs your so close bit just a little too high dosed to achieve euphoria everyday from the bupe if you were down to 3mgs or so then the euphoria would be there. Sound like your about done stockpiling eh cool 2 years is a lot I'm sure I could manage for that long and still have bupe left over myself mabyr its time for you to go on your own so you can smoke weed more often.