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Psychedelics directly lead to an ability to manipulate collectively perceived reality

Your looking for materialist answers, I have none.

Its like asking where or what is existence. Everywhere and nowhere, everything and nothing.

I wish I could put whats in my mind into more comprehensible words, but that's the best I can come up with.

Nonono, I didn't ask of what it consists, I asked where it is, and what other words you could wrap around it (i.e. the general "what" question)..

..I'd be saying all this materialist's matter mattered only to mad-hatter NExus/MOdus/DEus, USually..

..just to be coming back to my original question of what the hell I'd be talking about THAT then..


[SPOILER="paynims" ;)]..a spider fell unconscious on my keyboard as I wrote this.. =D[/SPOILER]
 
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I'll throw some sentences at those rhetorical questions. Existence is everywhere, there exists no where where there is no existence (I'm more of a language than math person, so you get a sentence crafted for form rather than function). As for what, the google tells me it's the state of having objective reality (prolbably not a definition you can stomach).

I think you misinterpret what I mean by existence, which I attribute to my own lack of language skills. I should have said "Where or what is all of existence.", if that makes any sense.

It's not that you have illogical beliefs that contradict empirical data that bothers me, it's that the way you try to express them, and your considering your word salad to be a syllogism that bothers me. It's like we're speaking different languages, and my rationality was born of intellectualization, I don't know how to introduce it someone not used to rational thought, I'd be sputtering tautologies at best. I wish I could help give you the tools to develop more coherent theories, that would non-believers could criticize point-by-point while feeling that they might accomplish something by it, rather than become upset with the intractability of what is more word salad than syllogism.

I understand that much of what I say will likely never make any sense to somebody of a different mindset such as yourself. I'm sorry I cant articulate my logic in a manner that you can comprehend, not that you would ever attempt to in the first place.

Briefly however, if gravity, one of the four fundamental forces (say goodbye to that phrase if they come up with a GUT), is at least partly determined by sentient beings (who are abstractly unified into a god-like transpersonal being) believing in it, then creationism is necessary to explain the existence of the universe, since gravity working exactly how it does is necessary for the universe as we know it to exist (which means for us to exist as well).

Gravity is necessary for the universe as we know it in a scientific sense to exist, but who is to say the universe as we know it is how it has to be, or how it has always been? I believe in an malleable reality based on subconscious preconceptions, beliefs, and expectations, such as that of a dream. Is gravity necessary in a dream?

Your attempt to appropriate observation from quantum mechanics is errant beyond my ability to explain. It can take full time students focusing onn physics a couple years to gain a decent grasp of QM, those of us who have not expended similar efforts should not ever speak of abstruse scientific theories like that unless we're parroting the experts, otherwise we're bound to spout baloney.

I'm still not sure where I mentioned anything about quantum mechanics, and I have no idea how it relates to our discussion.

If this universe were a dream, I don't see why you'd assume the existence of discrete consciousness entities, would it not be more reasonable that they are creations of a single dreamer (basically God, an unmoved mover), rather than collectively dreaming up themselves, with all the paradoxes that entails? Furthermore, the success of our science and maths in modeling the natural world, and offering us predictive power,* would suggest that the creator set up a system governed by physical laws, rather than playing it by ear like the human subconscious does while dreaming.

Ive been trying to avoid the word to deter preconceptions, but God is essentially what I have been talking about. I don't believe in god as an actual entity with an agenda, but as a force of existence if that makes any sense. God to me is the collective. I don't deny its a paradox that we could dream ourselves up, but so is the idea of God if you look at it that way. Its the whole "If God created everything who created God?" conundrum, or in a language more science friendly "If the big bang created the universe, what created the big bang, and what created that, and so on..?" At some point there has to be something coming from nothing.

The success of our science and math proves there are physical laws in place, but it does not disprove the idea that those laws only exist because of our subconscious preconceptions and/or expectations.

*We hairless apes, evolved to be fruitful and multiply like every other animal, can use physical structures that allow our minds to create a utilitarian model of external objects/events based off of indirect information, in combination with a game of our own invention (i.e. mathmatics and logic..I will not get so philosophical as to discuss whether or not they are invented or substantive), and method for uniting the two to produce quantitative, reproducible, empirical data to determine how the world works, and to deduce whys that we can that we can then treat as hows after further experimentation. This knowledge being so accurate that we can apply it to escape the gravitational pull of the our planet, exchange information with someone thousands of miles instantaneously, replace our malfunctioning organs with those from somebody else, create automated assembly lines, shoot lasers at someone's eye and improve their vision, etc. etc. etc.

Or in my mind, we believe all that therefore it is, and conscious observation strengthens that belief. You see existence as being "set in stone" for lack of a better word, and believe that what you observe must undeniably be. I see existence as being malleable based on subconscious preconceptions, beliefs, and expectations of the collective (like a dream).

I don't expect to change your mind about any of this, at this point I'm just trying to articulate my view as best I can to perhaps nullify some of your attacks. Its not that I don't have or understand rational thought and logic, its that my logic does not align with your own.

I'm of the belief that one day my beliefs could possibly be proven (or disproven) via the scientific method, but it would require everyone involved to approach with literally zero subconscious expectations or preconceptions which seems a long way off before humanity masters that ability.

We can continue on if you wish, but at this point it has come down to somewhat of a religion vs science debate which we all know leads nowhere productive.
 
Nonono, I didn't ask of what it consists, I asked where it is, and what other words you could wrap around it (i.e. the general "what" question)..

..I'd be saying all this materialist's matter mattered only to mad-hatter NExus/MOdus/DEus, USually..

..just to be coming back to my original question of what the hell I'd be talking about THAT then..


[SPOILER="paynims" ;)]..a spider fell unconscious on my keyboard as I wrote this.. =D[/SPOILER]

Im sorry, I cant make heads or tails of any of what you just said.

You asked...

"Where is this mind that you decide to follow?"
Which assumes there is a physical place to describe.

and..

"Actually, thinking about it, what is this "you" that's thinking it has a "mind" to follow?"
Which assumes a physical entity.
 
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Well..

Someone says they have proof of reality manipulating abilities, then goes on a few completely incoherent rants and admits having done insane doses of lsd, and being strung out on meth. He turns out to be making it up.

In the mean time some others come in saying its all bullshit and reality manipulation is impossible, and he needs psychiatric help (he probably does).

Someone else comes in and says he believes reality manipulation is possible, but not under scrutiny because our subconscious expectations affect the outcome.

Others come in and call him crazy

here we are
 
Im sorry, I cant make heads or tails of any of what you just said.

You asked...

"Where is this mind that you decide to follow?"
Which assumes there is a physical place to describe.

and..

"Actually, thinking about it, what is this "you" that's thinking it has a "mind" to follow?"
Which assumes a physical entity.

So without physics, how can there be an "I" assumed that is assuming or denying physics in the first place?

Can there be the questioning, without prior assumption of anything?

Is text being seen? Is another response about to appear?

Can there be agreement on that, without immediately dragging a Newton into this?
 
nemo said:
Ive been trying to avoid the word to deter preconceptions, but God is essentially what I have been talking about. I don't believe in god as an actual entity with an agenda, but as a force of existence if that makes any sense. God to me is the collective.

Hmm...it seems that we are indeed incapable of accurately transmitting our thoughts, so I'll just try to assist you with reducing meandering sentences to single terms. I've been reconsidering some of your statements, trying to infer what you mean rather than addressing what you say. Would pandeism be an apt characterization of your beliefs? Try checking out monism and pluralism too.

I'd like to step away from the dream-comparison for the time being, it is a corollary theory that needlessly convolutes a discussion that ought to be centered on revealing the academic expressions of your core beliefs.

Trawling wiki-articles on the things you're interested in can be very useful in helping you figure out what you believe (e.g. by facilitating the identification contradictions, conflations, and digressions). And I again apologize for attacking you, by nature I interact primarily with ideas, and often forget that my discursive foil, and even I myself, are human beings oozing with emotional goop.

I'm still not sure where I mentioned anything about quantum mechanics, and I have no idea how it relates to our discussion.

You did, even if you don't know it. I may try to look up an example/explanation of what I'm talking about later, 'cause a lot of spiritual types do it.

Its not that I don't have or understand rational thought and logic, its that my logic does not align with your own.

Aye, there's the rub! Which form of logic are you using? While I like to think that I can think rationally, any logic involved is incidental. I am entirely ignorant of even the simplistic system of First-order logic, and can ill conceive the more complicated logical forms.
 
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. ..

I'm still not sure where I mentioned anything about quantum mechanics, and I have no idea how it relates to our discussion...

That was me who mentioned that quantum entanglement has a good chance of having a lot to do with what the OP was going on about.
I am not sure how I could apply it to what you are talking about, but I will try to articulate a bit more info about when I get a bit more time later tonight.
 
^QM concepts like observation and wave function collapse are frequently used by New Age-ers to cloak their rubbish in what they assume to be credible sounding jargon.

It now occurs to me that the statement I quoted could have been referencing magick or something along those lines. I'd be happy to hear that that is the case.
 
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Hmm...it seems that we are indeed incapable of accurately transmitting our thoughts, so I'll just try to assist you with reducing meandering sentences to single terms. I've been reconsidering some of your statements, trying to infer what you mean rather than addressing what you say. Would pandeism be an apt characterization of your beliefs? Try checking out monism and pluralism too.

I'd like to step away from the dream-comparison for the time being, it is a corollary theory that needlessly convolutes a discussion that ought to be centered on revealing the academic expressions of your core beliefs.

Trawling wiki-articles on the things you're interested in can be very useful in helping you figure out what you believe (e.g. by facilitating the identification contradictions, conflations, and digressions). And I again apologize for attacking you, by nature I interact primarily with ideas, and often forget that my discursive foil, and even I myself, are human beings oozing with emotional goop.

Well if you want some history my father is from a pagan family who actively practice magick and ritual, and my mother from a strict christian family (you can probably imagine some of the conflict that arises because of this). Both of my parents are essentially non-religious themselves but I have been exposed to extremes of both belief systems via family. I guess I've taken on some some aspects of the two along with some atheist influences.

I've never really studied or tried to relate with any formal or organized belief systems, but instead have searched for truth within myself. Scanning though those articles and following a few links, taking on only brief overviews, I guess I can mostly identify with Pantheism except mixed with various aspects from my background.

Probably doesn't clear much up since I've already tried to explain to everyone essentially what I believe to be true. I'm not sure how I feel about this conversation shifting from my original proposal to an in depth analysis of my core beliefs. I put forward a theory of sorts that cold explain some currently unexplained phenomena and now were focusing more on the root of how I got there than the theory itself.

I do believe science is the correct path forward, and I believe everything can eventually be explained using science, but I don't believe we have reached the point where science can explain everything. I simply try to fill in blanks where science and religion collide with my personal beliefs to explain phenomena which I have personally witnessed that science cannot yet explain, thats all. I'm not trying to claim to have all of the answers, and I'm likely wrong on more than one account, but I think its worth looking into from a scientific perspective. There have been plenty of studies on the sort of phenomena I speak of, but its my belief that those studies are invalid because they always fail to take into account the subconscious preconceptions and expectations of all observers.

Aye, there's the rub! Which form of logic are you using? While I like to think that I can think rationally, any logic involved is incidental. I am entirely ignorant of even the simplistic system of First-order logic, and can ill conceive the more complicated logical forms.

If were talking mathematical logic or the deep end of philosophical logic Ill admit I'm lost there, I simply meant I'm familiar with critical thinking and rational thought as much as the next person. I'm not just a religious zealot who throws aside the scientific method in favor of theosophical views. I believe I have a legitimate insight into the workings of reality that has yet to fully and properly explored in the scientific world. I compare it to a dream of the collective because I can think of no other descriptive way to word it.
 
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Subjective group hallucination? Mass hysteria? There are 2 ways to describe it. I'm very anti new age ideology aka hippie rantings aka delusional bullshit. Not having a go just expressing my view. Yours is valid to yourself but the more we can move away from the rubbish of T McKenna the better to legitimize ANY link between psychedelics and psychic abilities perceptions. Indeed many drugs stimulate the neurotransmitters psychedelics activate. Why do we not see more of this kind of rubbish with crystal meth use. Ohh cause everyone just denounces it as being the workings of a drug addled tweeker. ;)
 
Subjective group hallucination? Mass hysteria? There are 2 ways to describe it. I'm very anti new age ideology aka hippie rantings aka delusional bullshit. Not having a go just expressing my view. Yours is valid to yourself but the more we can move away from the rubbish of T McKenna the better to legitimize ANY link between psychedelics and psychic abilities perceptions. Indeed many drugs stimulate the neurotransmitters psychedelics activate. Why do we not see more of this kind of rubbish with crystal meth use. Ohh cause everyone just denounces it as being the workings of a drug addled tweeker. ;)

Are you saying that you don't see a really huge difference between most psychedelics and crystal meth?
 
I've tried this "see the energy between your fingers" thing loads of times, and I never see anything. I'm not even a skeptic. I'm a fully open minded agnostic that doesn't disbelieve anything that hasn't been disproven. I've had at least one verifiable paranormal experience, so that makes me even more open minded. Had a disturbing one a while ago, but I was on my own and have no way of verifying it wasn't just a hallucination.


If your referring to the OP I'm pretty sure he already admitted to making it up.
Ah right, thanks, I didn't read the full thread.
 
Yikes....I used to think pushing out as many psychedelics into the world as I could would be a good thing for all...then I got more cynical and thought of it as "chemical warfare", just to cause ripples. It appears my latter approach was more in line with reality. But regardless, it stuns me that people take drug induced alterations of perception so seriously. Or any altering of how we perceive things. ..

Tl:dr for the whole thread (I did read it btw): 1) drugs are bad 2) measurable and repeatable, accept nothing else

Oh, and I can move my fingers with my mind! I'll stand by this to the end of time. And put it on YouTube.
 
Yikes....I used to think pushing out as many psychedelics into the world as I could would be a good thing for all...then I got more cynical and thought of it as "chemical warfare", just to cause ripples. It appears my latter approach was more in line with reality. But regardless, it stuns me that people take drug induced alterations of perception so seriously. Or any altering of how we perceive things. ..

Tl:dr for the whole thread (I did read it btw): 1) drugs are bad 2) measurable and repeatable, accept nothing else

Oh, and I can move my fingers with my mind! I'll stand by this to the end of time. And put it on YouTube.

To be fair its more about who a person is before the drugs than an affect of the drugs themselves. Its not like people take psychedelics and suddenly believe in the paranormal or something. Its that they've always been interested in those sorts of things even before the drugs. I know plenty of people who believe this stuff and have never done psychedelics.
 
If your referring to the OP I'm pretty sure he already admitted to making it up.

He only said he made up the dosages he was taking of things (such as the 8mg of LSD). I don't think he has said he made up the whole thing.
 
Ohh really, my bad.

I could swear I remember reading something about ignoring what he said back then because he was on meth and his ego got the better of him or something. I'm at work right now and don't have time to read through the thread again so Ill just take your word for it.

I apologize to the OP for spreading misinformation, I genuinely thought you said that.
 
To be fair its more about who a person is before the drugs than an affect of the drugs themselves. Its not like people take psychedelics and suddenly believe in the paranormal or something. Its that they've always been interested in those sorts of things even before the drugs. I know plenty of people who believe this stuff and have never done psychedelics.


Fair enough. I would never say anything to the contrary, even if that wasn't clear in my post.

Question? What is the difference between "magic" and "magick"? is the former sleight of hand tricks and the latter has some sort of pagan new age mystical credibility lent to it by the "k"?

Tl:dr - "k"?? ;)
 
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