Psychedelics directly lead to an ability to manipulate collectively perceived reality

[Nemodeus]

While the reality vs dream comparison is interesting if we're talking about the nature of consciousness or something like that, it is not applicable in this situation. In a dream, you are dealing with the imaginary, whereas reality is objective. Here's an introduction to the five senses, it'll blow your mind.

Do you practice lucid dreaming? If so do you not have senses in your dream world? Who is to say a dream is any more imaginary than this reality? My proposal was that this reality is imaginary, only on a collective scale (as if the collective of all entities capable of consciousness were a single master being, and this is its dream). You have said nothing to rebut my proposal.

Reality is by far more rigid than a dream for sure, but is anything ever truly 100% objective? It is my belief that your answer to that question is subjective

 

[Xorkoth]

I make no claims that the OP can really do the things he says, first of all, let's make sure that's straight. I only make claims about the nature of the universe, and not even really claims as to the certainty of how it is, but just of what I believe on account of experiences and revelations I have had. It's not that I don't care about methodological materilism, it's that as a close amateur follower of cutting-edge space science, I don't believe we have enough evidence yet to make any sort of claim about the macro structure of the universe. Hence, I am going to keep going with what I have been led to believe, until something else comes along that I can accept due to further evidence.

 

[Wayne Gretzky]

Maybe he always could? Sort of an natural ability he got away from with age?

 

[Thorns Have Roses]

^Sorry xork, friendly fire. Related anecdote, sometimes when my family is talking, I interrupt'em like so: "You're not saying anything. Get to the point."

Do you practice lucid dreaming?

I sometimes have lucid dreams, but not deliberately.

a single master being, and this is its dream

Oh, I get it now. You're a solipsist, you've just convoluted it with psychedelia.

You have said nothing to rebut my proposal.

Why would I rebut your proposal? It is not even wrong.

but is anything ever truly 100% objective? It is my belief that your answer to that question is subjective

Equivocation fallacy? And I didn't mean to sound like I expect you to become a positivist or anything like that.

 

[elucidator]

stuff about catching peoples attention at airports.

Yo, I can do this too, though I don't go out of my way to do it. I have to keep my energy right to myself when I catch public transport or people always seem to look around all funny, trying to figure out where the thing is that is drawing their attention. I was under the impression that everyone could do this, until I saw the general consensus of this thread.
I still think everyone can do this, but not very many people realize they can. Why do you go to airports to do this? or was that just an example?

A dream is like your own personal reality, where you alone have complete control of everything and anything within if you have enough discipline to realize your are dreaming (lucid dreaming) and focus your thoughts. Dreams are temporary though, merely a practice ground if you will, and often unstable because it is only one entity (you) creating/destroying/manipulating everything.

This reality is essentially a dream, except controlled by the collective of all participants. Say I try to levitate, spectators believe I cant, there are more of them than there are of me, therefore I cant. They observe me fail, reinforcing the belief in gravity. A spectator does not necessarily have to be in the same time and place so video recordings are useless in this regard.

I believe this is the origin of religion. Getting a collective of participants together all synchronizing their beliefs to achieve an otherwise impossible goal of altering the collective reality.

Of course, and this is the reason why I think the OPs attempt at getting the money from James Randi will be futile. Magick and the scientific setting is a paradox. One cannot be performed within the scrutinization of the other. Reality isn't really as objective as some people make it out to be. Our beliefs and expectations influence what is being perceived at all times, and can severely skew the findings of any experiment.

... I think it's fully feasible that we could come to understand that some of the basic things we know about space and the structure of the universe could be entirely misunderstood and misinterpreted. Everything we know about the universe outside of Earth is understood nearly 100% through what we read in the light from them, we've never been there except to the planets in our solar system, and we've only landed on the inner planets. I think the most intelligent response to that is to take it all with a grain of salt and realize we could be way off.

Most definitely, as soon as someone tries to interpret any type of given information, it is automatically misinterpreted as the interpreter does not have the original amount of information present at the previous level of complexity.
I try to avoid interpreting anything that I don't have 100% of the info for, for I know that how I think about anything is only a miniscule fraction of the whole picture, and defining it incompletely will only ruin the subsequent definition.

stuff about growing a plant with quantum manipulation

Imho, this is very possible, and could be described as the application of something similar to reiki (which has been measured scientifically) on plants. There has been a few interesting findings in the field of quantum entanglement that I feel have a lot to do with the OPs observations. There are a few choice articles about this here,here, and here

While the reality vs dream comparison is interesting if we're talking about the nature of consciousness or something like that, it is not applicable in this situation. In a dream, you are dealing with the imaginary, whereas reality is objective. Here's an introduction to the five senses, it'll blow your mind.

.

Imvho , the reality vs dream comparison might have a lot more to do with this than what you may think. Here's an introduction to quantum entanglement, it'll blow your mind.

Magick, the art and science of causing change in accordance with will. Everybody performs magick every day without realizing it.

Another good definition of Magick is, The act of influencing an object, place, event, or series of events with methods unknown or unrecognized by the scientific community.

Reality isn't even real! :D

Reality is only real if you believe it to be real. :D

 

[swilow]

To me, it looks like the 'anything is possible' faction in this thread is assuming that imperfect knowledge lets them treat folklore, and the rational conjecture of a body of experts, with equal weight

Irrationality is ingrained in us, as it is in the universe.

 

[Nemodeus]

Oh, I get it now. You're a solipsist, you've just convoluted it with psychedelia.

Not quite, I believe we all exist as individual pieces of a greater entity.

Why would I rebut your proposal? It is not even wrong.

... And I didn't mean to sound like I expect you to become a positivist or anything like that

Ohh, I was thrown off when you told me my comparison of reality to a dream was not applicable because dreams are imaginary while reality is objective.

Equivocation fallacy? .

How so?

 

[Nemodeus]

Of course, and this is the reason why I think the OPs attempt at getting the money from James Randi will be futile. Magick and the scientific setting is a paradox. One cannot be performed within the scrutinization of the other. Reality isn't really as objective as some people make it out to be. Our beliefs and expectations influence what is being perceived at all times, and can severely skew the findings of any experiment.

I believe you and I are on the same page.

 

[Captain.Heroin]

OP should stop eating acid and start eating risperidone imho

Agreed

 

[Psychonautical]

Yo, OP. i feel your vibes man. You've obviously done some spiritual energy work and what not. Or at least unlocked a few more receptors than you average bear.
The Ayahuasca foundation, has a special 6 month long course, where you take ayahuasca and sit in silence in the forest for 6 weeks with a Shaman.
who teaches you how to talk to plants. You have to imagine that there are levels or areas of our mind which we do not have access to because we do not have the training or the mental capacity to understand it without totally going insane, especially in the societal structure and foundation we are all forced to live in. Remember a Shaman is basically a Schizophrenic who has learned to understand and cope with all of the information that is constantly bombarding them.

If you were to take a Shaman from the jungle and try to take him to a place like New York. He would probably go insane, at the sheer level of destruction and chaos the people there have done unto mother earth. Combine that with his total lack of ego, he would be consciously and spiritually out of his element. Everything is about levels of consciousness and the systems that we have put in place to maintain our reality. Think about it like, the guy who owns the office at the top of 72 story high rise. He's got his systems in place to maintain that which he has built. Just like those who are expanding their conciousness set up mental blocks to stop them from "going to deep" or feeling certain things. This isn't about the power of positive thinking either. That secret is bullshit. Everyones consciousness is different to outright deny that there is absolutely no way to manipulate reality is wrong. But to proclaim yourself as the shaman, or the one with all of the knowledge is the development to a level of Neurosis which doesn't bode well for those on a spiritual path to enlightenment. You can control and manipulate your reality. If you meet a conscious group of individuals who operates within the same modality of thought and understandings of things like energy and life. Then you can find that as a group together you share something that others do not.

Also don't expect to be able to manipulate reality for those who do not believe. Belief is key, which is why Ayahuasca really can kick ass if you have a proper guide of spiritual atonement. They have their systems in place to protect them from the things they don't understand. Ultimately don't feel bad for thinking and feeling the way you do.Don't let anyone get to you who tells you to pop a bunch of rispiradone either . If anything i would suggest going about your spiritual journey in a more enlightened way. Don't use yourself as the guide. Get a real guide, try to become friends with a sweat lodge. Go to a spiritual music festival like Lightening in a Bottle or Shambhala, and find someone who is older and wiser in their ways and learn from them and don't constantly pop psychedelics. Learn some subtle energies.

There is a magic to this world but it is covered up with addiction, television, media, corporations, sugar, aggression and bullshit. The ties the Bind. Don't fall into the trap now.
If you don't think you are ready do fully commit to something deeper i suggest you get the Book "BE HERE, BE NOW" by Ram Dass. Commit yourself to that book the next time you trip and you will notice something a bit, different.
I actually suggest that to everyone. But hey to each their own.

 

[Ballz_Trippington]

Another good definition of Magick is, The act of influencing an object, place, event, or series of events with methods unknown or unrecognized by the scientific community.

The problem I have with this definition is that magick can be explained by ordinary science in a sense. I after a decade and have of working alone and with different groups. Ive cone to believe that their may be nothing magickal at all going beyond ones believe that they are actually wielding magickal powers.
Ritual dramas are just that really impressive dramas that are very impressive and usually have a very profound psychological effect the participants. But it could very well be just a massive form of conditioning enabling the participants to believe that what their doing will work and so EVEYONE adjusts their behaviour to act in accordance with this.
It actually be Magick at work. But I've grown suspicious that it's a much more Mundane explanation.

 

[Ballz_Trippington]

@NKB:
I spent some time looking up how a few stuffy fundamentalists have decided who they define those 2 words (which I was well aware I just regard as irrelevant - as it's just another opinion) I came across a word called CONTEXT. In case you gathered I despise rigid systems of almost any kind be cause they are so limiting.
I could care less how anyone in the Webster family decides a word should be used. Language evolves every single day (especially English). Websters revises there dictionary every year. Which in no way even makes an attempt to keep with the evolution of language.
Words are nothing but symbols used to convey meaning and NO ONE owns it. It's evolving faster and faster every day.
You might have a better view of who's actually wearing the tin foil hats if you adjusted your Saran Wrap hat that seems to be affecting your judgement, also getting down off the pedestal might your perspective a bit. Having any kind of academic qualifications means nothing about a persons capacity for intelligence and certainly not for wisdom. Some of the dumbest people on this earth have all kinds of degrees ( not saying this is your case because I've been reading your posts for a while now and I believe your a pretty same smart fellow). But wisdom is not taught in schools , your born with it and you learn wisdom from life experience. And certainly, wisdom and intelligence are NOT the same thing.

 

[pofacedhoe]

Agreed

exactly- we've all gone crazy from drugs and you can learn things but when you think you have powers you need to reign in the ego

you have to think- hmm is this really rational?

 

[Psychonautical]

http://www.ayahuascaassociation.org/the-ayahuasca-advanced-initiation-course/
If this doesn't drive you insane, because a spiritual guide is showing you how to ultilize your mind, for further communication with the world and spirits around you. That isn't insanity. That is proper training.
You need to ask yourself what is it that you are denying that allows you to think all of this stuff is crazy or just doesn't exist and is ultimately the product of the insane mind. It's not if you learn how to do it properly.
I confess to thinking that your consciousness is the only consciousness in this world, is wrong. That is a Neurosis.
But with proper training. Magic Exists, in profoundly subtle ways. This Ayahuasca training, is RIGOROUS, apparently the most complete one available to Westerners.
WEEK ONE
SUNDAY – Arrive and stay in a hotel for one night. Meet the other students and curandero.
MONDAY – Go to the school and settle in. Ceremony discussion. CEREMONY #1
TUESDAY – Take a powerful purgative called Sangre de Grado to clean out the stomach.
WEDNESDAY – Begin the first plant diet with a two day fast. CEREMONY #2
THURSDAY – Tobacco and soplaying/ceremony preparation workshop with mapacho.
FRIDAY – Have hands painted to signify the diet. Plant baths begin. CEREMONY #3
SATURDAY – Continue plant baths with students administering them to each other.

WEEK TWO
SUNDAY – Continue plant baths with other plant preparation. CEREMONY #4
MONDAY – Continue plant baths. Healing song (icaro) group workshop.
TUESDAY – Vapor bath preparation and administration. CEREMONY #5
WEDNESDAY – Continue with vapor baths with students giving the baths.
THURSDAY – Vapor baths continue. Agua Florida workshop. CEREMONY #6
FRIDAY – Pinon blanco cleanse. Meditation. Vision navigation discussion.
SATURDAY – Medicinal plant remedy preparation and administration. CEREMONY #7

WEEK THREE
SUNDAY – Jungle walk to learn about plant identification and medicinal properties.
MONDAY – Another medicinal plant preparation workshop. CEREMONY #8
TUESDAY – Rest and relax for a day. Practice soplaying and singing the icaros.
WEDNESDAY – Medicinal plant discussion, connecting with the spirits. CEREMONY #9
THURSDAY – Continue with medicinal plant remedy preparation workshops.
FRIDAY – First third of the course review with the curandero. Relax. CEREMONY #10
SATURDAY – Take part in the preparation of the sacred brew ayahuasca.

WEEK FOUR
SUNDAY – Continue ayahuasca preparation. Cushma charging. CEREMONY #11
MONDAY – The rest of the course features curandero-guided student-led ceremonies.
TUESDAY – Continue with icaros. Vapor baths with eucalyptus. CEREMONY #12
WEDNESDAY – Prayers to open and close the ceremonies. Vapor baths continue.
THURSDAY – Vapor baths continue. Mucura sinus cleanse. CEREMONY #13
FRIDAY – Practice the icaros. Continue meditations. The student led ceremonies continue…
SATURDAY – Medicinal plant remedy preparation and administration. CEREMONY #14

WEEK FIVE
SUNDAY – Bone and joint alignment and therapeutic massage workshop. More icaros.
MONDAY – Student led ceremonies continue. Vision discussion. CEREMONY #15
TUESDAY – Walk in the jungle to learn more about the plants and the medicinal properties.
WEDNESDAY – Icaro workshops. Plant remedies. Connecting… CEREMONY #16
THURSDAY – Continue to practice, going over any questions with the curandero & guides.
FRIDAY – Study the icaros and practice soplaying, chupando. CEREMONY #17
SATURDAY – Workshops on diagnosing illnesses, finding plant remedies…

WEEK SIX
SUNDAY – Discussions on shipibo translations of icaros. CEREMONY #18
MONDAY – Review of soplaying, chupando, opening the ceremony properly.
TUESDAY – Learning a new icaro. Group singing workshop. CEREMONY #19
WEDNESDAY – Meditation continues with new technique. Journey work…
THURSDAY – Review of Agua florida workshop. Perfumes… CEREMONY #20
FRIDAY – Vision discussions. Meditations continue. Practice the icaros.
SATURDAY – Medicinal plant remedy preparation and administration. CEREMONY #21

WEEK SEVEN
SUNDAY – Jungle walk to learn about plant identification and medicinal properties.
MONDAY – Another medicinal plant preparation workshop. CEREMONY #22
TUESDAY – Rest and relax for a day. Practice soplaying and singing the icaros.
WEDNESDAY – Connecting with the spirits workshop and discussion. CEREMONY #23
THURSDAY – Deeper discussion of connecting to God during the icaros.
FRIDAY – Continue the icaros. Sacha mango sinus cleanse. CEREMONY #24
SATURDAY – Take part in the preparation of the sacred brew ayahuasca.

WEEK EIGHT
SUNDAY – Continue with ayahuasca preparation again. CEREMONY #25
MONDAY – Meditation. Practice icaros. Diet goes deeper. Diet discussion.
TUESDAY – Mucura sinus cleanse again. More plant baths. CEREMONY #26
WEDNESDAY – Plant baths continue. Student preparation and administration.
THURSDAY – More icaros. Group discussion. Singing workshop. CEREMONY #27
FRIDAY – Practice the icaros. Continue meditations. The student led ceremonies continue…
SATURDAY – Preparation for intensive week of diet. Meditation. CEREMONY #28

WEEK NINE
SUNDAY – Week of silence begins. Practice icaros, prayers, soplaying, chupando, etc.
MONDAY – Meditation. Walking in jungle. Silence continues. CEREMONY #29
TUESDAY – Silence continues. Diet goes much deeper. Connecting with plants.
WEDNESDAY – Silence goes deeper and deeper. Further connection. CEREMONY #30
THURSDAY – Silence goes deeper. Continue to practice, meditate…
FRIDAY – Final day of silent diet. Final student led ceremony. CEREMONY #31
SATURDAY – Discussion about the students future as healers. practice dance.

WEEK TEN
SUNDAY – Discussion on arcanas. Arcana ceremony. CEREMONY #32
MONDAY – Final discussion about healing. Questions and answers. Practice dance.
TUESDAY – Final ceremony led by curandero. Receive Arcanas. CEREMONY #33
WEDNESDAY – Diet ends with a sacred ceremony. Enjoy delicious food and relax.
THURSDAY – Final day in the jungle. Say goodbyes. Head back to Iquitos.
FRIDAY – Internet, laundry, etc. Visit the butterfly farm outside of Iquitos. relax.
SATURDAY – Receive course certificates and get gifts or medicines. Say your goodbyes…


33 Ayahuasca Ceremonies, in 10 weeks. I just gotta get the cash together, and i'll be back on the internet babbling to you guys about the ancient and mystical ways of animal and plant communication.

 

[Thorns Have Roses]

also getting down off the pedestal might your perspective a bit

I admit that my frustration with my inability to express my knowledge with clarity, consistency, & concision has affected my attitude towards other posters. I apologize for my unproductive impoliteness.

As for the contextual use of 'delusion', the misappropriation of psychiatric terms is a major pet peeve of mine. I can tolerate some colloquialism (e.g. the use of depression to mean sadness. Most people have never been depressed, and their use of the word is an impediment to their understanding/respecting the condition IMO), but considering that our discussion is on a psychedelic drugs board, the clinical use of terms is abnormally pertinent, and should be preferred.

P.S. I think meaningful discussion is improbable when the parties involved cannot tentatively agree upon the meaning of words. I feel like that is what is going on here, and that our lack of mutual intelligibility will prevent this thread from bearing any fruit (and every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire).

*combined content of posts in this thread*

Your fractal wrongness has me in a tizzy. I am throwing in the towel.

fractal universe ~ I follow science-y stuff as a layman

Would you happen to know the implications of fractal cosmology, if it is true? Beyond the aesthetic appeal and simple joy of knowing how things are arranged, does it offer us insight into why that arrangement exists, and what is this theory's predictive power? I am legitimately curious, yet is too far off from my own interests for me to do all the required reading.

 

[Nemodeus]

Your fractal wrongness has me in a tizzy. I am throwing in the towel.

Sorry...

Keep in mind these are just my personal views that Ive acquired over years of thinking and meditating deeply on the subject with and without the help of entheogens. I cant provide any evidence, and its entirely possible that Im way off with my views, and my experiences are simply the result of losing my mind. I posted in this thread in the hopes to share my views with others who had the similar views and experiences and maybe gain some insight, not to upset non-believers with my insanity. I'm still interested in hearing anything you or anyone else has to say that could show me Im wrong, but so long as I cant find a flaw with my beliefs I'll continue down my current path. Its always better to follow ones own mind than to blindly follow something others believe.

 

[Chris Timothy]

Ok, I'll play..

Sorry...

Keep in mind these are just my personal views that Ive acquired over years of thinking and meditating deeply on the subject with and without the help of entheogens. I cant provide any evidence, and its entirely possible that Im way off with my views, and my experiences are simply the result of losing my mind. I posted in this thread in the hopes to share my views with others who had the similar views and experiences and maybe gain some insight, not to upset non-believers with my insanity. I'm still interested in hearing anything you or anyone else has to say that could show me Im wrong, but so long as I cant find a flaw with my beliefs I'll continue down my current path. Its always better to follow ones own mind than to blindly follow something others believe.

..so in the end you decide to follow your own mind.

Where is this mind that you decide to follow?

Actually, thinking about it, what is this "you" that's thinking it has a "mind" to follow?

 

[Roger&Me]

I apologize for my unproductive impoliteness.

i don't think you've been impolite at all. more like the voice of reason in this thread.

 

[Nemodeus]

Where is this mind that you decide to follow?

Actually, thinking about it, what is this "you" that's thinking it has a "mind" to follow?

Your looking for materialist answers, I have none.

Its like asking where or what is existence. Everywhere and nowhere, everything and nothing.

I wish I could put whats in my mind into more comprehensible words, but that's the best I can come up with.

 

[Thorns Have Roses]

Time to fight fire with fire. I offer y'all this mountain of superfluous words, perhaps the nonlinear thinkers in the crowd will find it ancillary to the intelligible expression of my thoughts, rather than an impediment to meaningful discussion.

Its like asking where or what is existence. Everywhere and nowhere, everything and nothing.

I'll throw some sentences at those rhetorical questions. Existence is everywhere, there exists no where where there is no existence (I'm more of a language than math person, so you get a sentence crafted for form rather than function). As for what, the google tells me it's the state of having objective reality (probably not a definition you can stomach).

i don't think you've been impolite at all. more like the voice of reason in this thread.

Maybe I edited away the most impolite parts, but I got tangled in the nonsense that I was trying to engage piecemeal, and became participant in a debate, when what this thread needs is a lecturer to explain how to find truth to those reliant upon truthiness.

That person is not me. Ya'know, I gave rangrz a lot of grief back in the day, trying to defend our daisy-chain brained cohorts from cold academic exchanges and intellectual evisceration, when their primary goal was to share warm feelings, clumsily wrapped in their stillborn thoughts and patchwork phrases. I wanted to maintain what I perceived to be harmony in PD and its colonial threads. Then came the day when there was no voice to throw something quantitative at those lost in the gibberish of self-taught qualitative inquiry, sans science, and I feel that somebody has to try impose order on that chaos, for HR if not for simple love of truth.

Can you tell I've been up drinking well passed my bedtime? Hahaha, basically I want to learn some formal logic. It'd help so much. Kinda like how becoming a second voice of reason would be more helpful than cheering me on from the sidelines.

I posted in this thread in the hopes to share my views with others who had the similar views and experiences and maybe gain some insight, not to upset non-believers with my insanity.

It's not that you have illogical beliefs that contradict empirical data that bothers, but that you can't see that the limitations of your knowledge preclude the possibility of speculation on the topic you choose to address. It's like we're speaking different languages, and my rationality was born of intellectualization, I don't know how to introduce rational thinking to the neophyte, were I to attempt such an introduction, I'd end up sputtering tautologies. I wish I could give you the tools you need to craft a coherent theory, that non-believers could dissemble in comfort, or write off as not even wrong, because as things stand, we non-believers are forced to do battle with a Lovecraftian abomination, more word salad than syllogism.

I'll make a few statements on things you have previously posted, for funsies, since I doubt anything will come of , and I doubt my ability to write one worthy of producing the results I desire:

If the nature of gravity, one of the four fundamental forces, is at least partly determined by sentient beings believing in it, then those same beings could not exist, since gravity working exactly how it does is an integral to the universe as we know it.

Your attempt to appropriate the concept of observation from quantum mechanics is errant beyond my ability to explain. It can take phsyics students a couple years to get grasp of QM. Those of us who have not expended similar efforts should not speak of abstruse scientific theories like that unless we're parroting the experts, otherwise we're bound to spout baloney.

If this universe were a dream, I don't see why you'd assume the existence of discrete consciousness entities, would it not be more elegant to assume that they are creations of a single dreamer (basically God, an unmoved mover), rather than collectively dreaming up themselves, with all the paradoxes that entails? Furthermore, the success of our science and maths in modeling the natural world, and offering us predictive power,* would suggest that the creator-mind set up a system governed by physical laws, rather than playing it by ear like the human subconscious does while dreaming.

*We hairless apes, evolved to be fruitful and multiply like every other terrestrial life-form, can use the physical structures that allow our minds to create a utilitarian model of external objects/events, in combination with a game of our own invention (i.e. mathmatics and logic..I will not get so philosophical as to discuss whether they are invented or substantive), and a method for uniting the two to produce quantifiable, empirical data through repeatable experiments, and determine how the world works. This knowledge being so accurate that we can apply it to escape the gravitational pull of the our planet, exchange information with someone thousands of miles instantaneously, replace our malfunctioning organs with those from somebody else, create automated assembly lines, shoot lasers at someone's eye and improve their vision, etc. etc. etc.