psychedelic enlightenment my experience

[Doldrugs]

I was answering what you said about Daryl Gates and Nancy Reagan compared with Terence Mckenna

But they're all ideas. And all of them are bad.

 

[cosmic._.ape]

We ought to use psychedelics for the same reasons they have been used along the centuries: to renew the trust in the community, thus is, to re-learn how to trust each other, so we can be collectively efficient

 

[red22]

I think therence mckenna gave to a monk dmt, and fater his experience he smiles and said it was the mind. but he didnt found enlgihtenment didnt he.

I think you mean the old Ram Dass tale that he gave his "master" 900 mics and the master just sat there as if nothing had happened. Apparantly someone else who was there says the monk palmed the LSD and pretended he'd taken it to impress Ram Dass. Then to impress 3 other students who thought if you ate the ash of the masters fire you had visions, he put the LSD in the ash. 3 more satisifed customers!

Certainly anyone who took 900 mics for the first time wouldn't be able to sit there calmly with no effect. Even the physical effect alone would have him up and moving around.

You distorted the account. I'm posting it below. I believe the account because I've seen reports on the achieving of a natural psychedelic state via physical disciplines. So I reason that if that level can be reached naturally, then the idea of being able to exercise control over the drug state shouldn't seem controversial. As far as chemical effects, no one said that Baba completely diminished the visuals. It could have been more like bringing the effects down to what could be described as a 100 mcg trip, where he could still appear present and able to make fun.

So, here are four examples of people achieving natural psychedelia. Two items from public figures and two items from Shroomery members. Below that is the Neem Karoli Baba account.

#1

#2

#3

#4


Source: Ram Dass lecture at the Maryland Psychiatric Research Center: Part I. The Journal of Transpersonal Psychology, vol. 5, issue #1 (1973), pages 82–85

At one point J was into my shoulder bag which I was carrying. I was looking in there and I found this little bottle of LSD. I had brought that to India-not because I was particularly eager to take it, since I had taken it up to here as far as I was concerned, but because I thought I might meet somebody who I could give it to who would tell me something about what it was all about. I thought, "After all, I'll give it to these holy men," and I'd give it to different holy men like a Buddhist monk and I'd say "How did it affect you, sir?" and he'd say, "It gave me a headache." I'd give it to somebody else and they'd say, "Well, it is good for meditation." Somebody else said, "Well, meditation is better than this." Somebody else said, "Where can I get more?" There was the standard set of reactions that you'd get in the West. You didn't have to go to India to find out all those reactions. So I found this bottle and I thought, "Gee-you know, this guy is going to know. I'll talk to him about LSD."

I go to bed, The next morning a message comes: Maharaj-ji wants to see you. We go over to the temple around 7:30 or 8 in the morning. I'm walking towards him. I'm about as far from him as that booth back there, and he yells at me, "Where's the medicine?" I'm not used to thinking of LSD as medicine, so I was a little confused. I said, "Medicine? What medicine?" He said, "The medicine, the medicine." I said, "LSD?" "Yes, bring the medicine." So I went to the car and I got the medicine and I brought it back and "Let me see." So I put it on my hand. I had all different kinds of things in there. "What's that?" I said, "LSD." "What's that?" "That's mescaline, that's Librium, and that's"-you know, a little traveling kit. So he said, "Does it give you siddhis?" Now siddhis in India means "powers." But I had never heard the word before. It means spiritual powers, and since I never heard the word before and they translated it as powers, I thought he wanted like vitamin B-12. You see, I figure he's an old man, he must be losing his power and he wants vitamin B-12 and I didn't have vitamin B-12, so I said, "I'm sorry-no, this doesn't give you that kind of power," and I put it back in the bottle. He says, "Nay, nay," and he holds out his hand, So I put one pill in his hand. These pills were 300 micrograms each. He looked at it. "Come on." So I put a second one-that was 600 micrograms. He looked, so I put a third pill on-that was 900 micrograms-which seemed like an adequate dose for anyone-and he went like that, see, took all three pills-and I was around him all that morning, and nothing at all happened. Like, "That's your medicine, groovy, that's interesting." Nothing happened at all.

Now it's interesting that I came back to America after that and I told many people and in fact published it and said that this man had taken 900 micrograms of LSD and nothing had happened. But all the time I was saying this, there was a gnawing doubt in my mind, just a tiny little one that maybe, since I was so confused at that time, maybe what he did-he took the pills and he threw them over his shoulder, you know, and it was all a magical thing, and he'd never taken them at all. So it is interesting to follow the sequence through, since now we can see another round this time when I'm back in India. One day he calls me up to him and he says, "Say, did you give me any medicine last time you were in India?" I said, "Yeah." He said, "Did I take it?" I said, "Well, I think so." "Did it have any effect on me?" I said, "No, I don't think so." He said, "Oh, Go away." So I went away and the next morning I received a call from him and he says, "You got any more of that medicine?" I said, "Yeah." "Bring it." So I bring it. I have what is comparable to 1500 micrograms. I put it on his hand, and one pill is broken and he gives that back to me. The rest he is holding in his hand, and this time, as if in response to my slight doubt, he takes each one-and he does it very carefully to make sure that I see that it is going into his mouth and he is swallowing it, you see. After he swallows all these pills, he looks at me as if panicked and he says, "Pani-can I take water?" And I said, "Sure." He asks, "Hot or cold?" and I said, "Either one, it doesn't matter." He's calling, "Pani, Pani, bring water, bring water." They bring a glass of water and he drinks it down. Then he says, "How long will it take to act? How long will it take?" I said, "Well, I don't know, about an hour or-something will happen in an hour, I'm sure." So he calls a man over and he has a man with a wrist watch and he's holding the man's wrist watch and he says to me, "Will it make me crazy?" And our relationship is very intimate so I said to him, "Probably!" So at this point he goes under his blanket, which is what he sits with, and he comes up looking absolutely insane! At which point I think, "Ugh, oh, what have I done? I've let this old man take this strong drug and now he's gone crazy-oh, what a terrible-it'll be an international incident, and it's terrible, and I've blown it again." Then he laughed at me-and at the end of an hour, just nothing had happened. And I was there all day and nothing had happened at all. At the end of the hour he says, "You got anything stronger?" I said no. "Oh." And he said these substances were known about in the Kulu Valley long ago, but all that knowledge is lost now. Then he said, "It's useful, it's useful, not the true samadhi, but it's useful."

Then later when questioned about LSD by some of the young Westerners that were with him, he said, "If you're in a cool place and you're quiet and you're feeling much peace and your mind is turned toward God, it's useful. It's useful." He said it will allow you to come in and have the visit-the darshan-a saint, of a higher being of a higher space-higher consciousness is how you can translate it. But he says you can't stay there-after a couple of hours you gotta come back. He said, you know, it would be much better to become the saint, rather than to go and have his visit; but having his visit is nice. He said it strengthens your faith in the possibility that such beings exist. At the time he used Christ as the saint he was talking about. He said it allows you to have the visit of Christ but you can't stay with him. It would be better to become like Christ than to visit, and LSD won't do that for you. He said it will strengthen your faith but it won't make you into that. He said love is a much stronger drug than LSD medicine.

NOTE: Maharajji is also known as Neem Karoli Baba.


I fondly remember my first guru, Neem Karoli Baba, taking three tabs of Ram Dass’s Sandoz Laboratory acid in the late sixties and then throughout the day asking Ram Dass if and when it was going to have some effect. It’s really Ram Dass who went on a trip that day. It didn’t seem to change Neem Karoli Baba’s consciousness much.

Lama Surya Das. The Zen Commandements. Zig Zag Zen: Buddhism and Psychedelics. Alan Hunt Badiner & Alex Grey (editors). 2002. Page 185.

 

[murphythecat]

yeah, no drug experience can replace the deep tranquility and peace that arise with the stillness of the mind: its not blissful like a drug, its way different, but very related. Theres no other way to have that bliss experienced (samadhi) in a psy at all time (in sober life). the only way I think is threw concentration. If one has never experience the stillness of a mind, try it. its as blissful as any drugs from the small amount of experience Ive had but indeed much more difficult to attain. But from what monks says, it seems that after a while, it gets easier and that the bliss is quite incredible.

Letting go of every thoughts is very hard for a ordinary mind. we dont even realize most of the time that we are constantly thinking. This is where meditation becomes hard as to stabilize your mind and make it one pointed is very different then normal consciousness and you need to have at all time mindfulness in mind: you just cant desire all day long then hope to be able to meditate well for a hour. It doesnt work like that. you bring to the cushion your mind, so if your mind is always in movement during the day, you will not be able to calm it in one hours of meditation enough to stabilize it, its impossible.

once you do get access concentration you finally see the space without the thoughts this is accompanied with deep happiness and peace, hard to describe, but as soon as it happens, your mind wants/needs to talk about it, which is very problematic because automatically, you loose the calm that arose when you stopped thinking! its like you discover a new realm, a new possibility of state of consciousness. but you cant access it as your mind needs to remain still, but it doesnt want to or even cant. Also, that stabilizing and stilness of the mind is just the beginning of a meditation and there a lot of step to go before their supposed samadhi. then theirs 9 jhanas that you go threw ect.

I suspect advanced monks are living their life in a state of mindfulness that is deeper then access concentration at all time. and so their relationship with a drug would be very different.

I believe that the samadhi/ bliss experience that are triggered by drugs is possible by stilling the mind with practice. At least, that what the monks says, and by hearing them talk so fluently about it which seem totally accessible and possible but so far from my mind, I tend to have a gut feeling that what they say is true and that there is a whole other realm of consciousness that is totally blocked by our thinking process and just normal way of wanting/craving/5 hindrances ect.


http://www.wisdompubs.org/sites/default/files/preview/Being Nobody Book Preview.pdf

 

[protovack]

I am at a similar point with psychedelics. People around me had profound spiritual experiences on lsd, mushroom. I am a non-spiritual person and I was looking forward to have similar experiences: being one with all the living creatures, our earth, that we are all made out of energy waves (which theory greatly overlaps with what we know about quantum physics). But I had none, except for one visual on 2C-B where I've seen some vegetation grow and die, grow and die countless times when some continous threads of energy appeared from somwhere (I couldn't see), passing through them and going away, this being repeated for as long as I kept my eyes closed.

What!? You watched a living thing grow and die repeatedly, and continuous threads of energy coursing through it, and yet you don't count this as a spiritual experience? Interesting.

 

[Ismene]

You distorted the account. I'm posting it below..

No I didn't distort the account, I posted the account of someone else who was there other than Ram Dass. From the book Strange Fruit by Clark Heinrich:

"The man with whom I studied yoga was there too. At the time he was running and building the guru's five ashrams and serving as his right-hand man. The guru did little else but sit with people, accept the worship (and money) of his disciples, sing and eat. My teacher ran the details of the whole show and taught yoga. He gave me his account of what happened that day with the LSD.

"Simply put, the guru palmed the LSD tablets and didn't swallow anything but air. Many Indian gurus are adept at sleight of hand and small magic tricks, are not always above using a little subterfuge 'for the good of the disciple'. But the story doesn't end with palming the LSD. The guru later ground the tablets into powder and mixed it with a little of the fine white ash from his sacred fire. This he then gave to two unsuspecting disciples who had been visiting from a distant place and were now departing. Ash from a guru's fire is considered prasad and yes, it is eaten. I don't know anything of the men's journey home, but it was probably quite eventful, especially considering the Himalayan roads, and filled with wondrous exclamations about the guru's tremendous powers."

 

[myr]

What!? You watched a living thing grow and die repeatedly, and continuous threads of energy coursing through it, and yet you don't count this as a spiritual experience? Interesting.

I said, except that one.
However, I'm a bit disappointed that it was only a distant CEV, I was a mere spectator of the happening. But the most disturbing thought lately is that I believe this 'realisation' was built from my memory and not a genuine vision. For this reason I am afraid of reading anything related to the topic. I was an atheist, now I'm more towards agnostic but still have the built-in mechanism of hating all religions and beliefs spread by people without any proof.
Right now the only acceptable thing for me would be a spiritual psychedelic experience I did not know about beforehand.
DMT was different, far more believable (like something that's right in your face :D) but still not convincing enough as I don't even remember any detail of it, I only remember TALKING about it right after I've done it. But those trips were real experiences, I FELT myself being one with several ...dimensions so to speak and that's the only thing left of the journey.

 

[murphythecat]

f I were to administer a compound for spiritual enlightenment, a breakthrough dose of DMT would be it. OBE experience are quite spiritual undeniably. entities, seeing your body down there when you are up in your ceiling, ect is quite convincing!

I said, except that one.
However, I'm a bit disappointed that it was only a distant CEV, I was a mere spectator of the happening. But the most disturbing thought lately is that I believe this 'realisation' was built from my memory and not a genuine vision. For this reason I am afraid of reading anything related to the topic. I was an atheist, now I'm more towards agnostic but still have the built-in mechanism of hating all religions and beliefs spread by people without any proof.
Right now the only acceptable thing for me would be a spiritual psychedelic experience I did not know about beforehand.
DMT was different, far more believable (like something that's right in your face :D) but still not convincing enough as I don't even remember any detail of it, I only remember TALKING about it right after I've done it. But those trips were real experiences, I FELT myself being one with several ...dimensions so to speak and that's the only thing left of the journey.

 

[pupnik]

Why is that enlightenment of the spirit?
I think that you are wrapping a common but extra-ordinary drug experience in terms of transcendental holiness.
That is not fair IMO to people who want nothing to do with Buddhism or to Buddhists who want nothing to do with recreational drug use.

 

[AA357]

We ought to use psychedelics for the same reasons they have been used along the centuries: to renew the trust in the community, thus is, to re-learn how to trust each other, so we can be collectively efficient

First of all, which community are you referring to? Psychedelics are too much for most people.
Secondly, the effects vary a lot from person to person. I have tripped over 50 times this year and now I'm more misanthropic than ever.

I think people should just take them for whatever reason they want to. For me, it's just for fun.

What!? You watched a living thing grow and die repeatedly, and continuous threads of energy coursing through it, and yet you don't count this as a spiritual experience? Interesting.

What's so spiritual about that? I've seen plants wilting and coming back to life again while tripping. I've also seen a footpath turn into a stream and watched doors opening and closing by themselves. The fact is that psychedelics make you see crazy shit. They are powerful drugs. When you're tripping; EVERYTHING looks fucked up, whether living or not.

Suggestible people and weirdos like to believe that everything they experience while tripping has some sort of spiritual significance (when in fact there are much simpler, more obvious explanations). This kind of mentality is what leads to 'acid casualties'. Do any of you know anything about brain chemistry or psychology?

 

[Ismene]

We ought to use psychedelics for the same reasons they have been used along the centuries: to renew the trust in the community, thus is, to re-learn how to trust each other, so we can be collectively efficient

Is that really why they were used cosmic? I know when they got to Maria Sabina she was the only person in the village who actually took mushrooms and was sort of ostracised because of it. All she used them for was medical diagnosis - people would bring their handicapped kids to her and say "Is he going to make it?" and she'd take mushrooms and make a pronouncement. I don't think they all sat round and tripped like hippies.

Secondly, the effects vary a lot from person to person. I have tripped over 50 times this year and now I'm more misanthropic than ever.

Must admit this is something I relate to. I never really got the "lets all trip and hug our neighbours". To me tripping is a solitary pastime and I've never really felt any kinship with other people - just with nature and my own spirit. Perhaps the big music festivals in the 60s did something to promote the idea that people who take LSD want some kind of brotherhood of man.

 

[pupnik]

I have a good friend who does love trees.
one day he got so high on some weed that he hugged a lamp post murmuring something about how lovely the forest had become.
very embarrassing.

(he is still my best friend)

 

[murphythecat]

at 30 years old, you find meaning into seeing those kind of things. some do, some dont. at 17, I just wasnt ready to fully understand.

some do see a spiritual meaning and everybody around me do, but I guess some dont. I never met those kind of people so cant say why that happens. each their own, but now too impy that those who do see a spiritual meaning doesnt know anything in psychology or chemistry (???) is limit judgemental and could be insulting.

First of all, which community are you referring to? Psychedelics are too much for most people.
Secondly, the effects vary a lot from person to person. I have tripped over 50 times this year and now I'm more misanthropic than ever.

I think people should just take them for whatever reason they want to. For me, it's just for fun.


What's so spiritual about that? I've seen plants wilting and coming back to life again while tripping. I've also seen a footpath turn into a stream and watched doors opening and closing by themselves. The fact is that psychedelics make you see crazy shit. They are powerful drugs. When you're tripping; EVERYTHING looks fucked up, whether living or not.

Suggestible people and weirdos like to believe that everything they experience while tripping has some sort of spiritual significance (when in fact there are much simpler, more obvious explanations). This kind of mentality is what leads to 'acid casualties'. Do any of you know anything about brain chemistry or psychology?

 

[max_freakout]

Perhaps the big music festivals in the 60s did something to promote the idea that people who take LSD want some kind of brotherhood of man.

Bear in mind those kind of festivals didnt just happen in the 60s, there is to this day a thriving psychedelic festival scene across the whole world where many people gather together, dance to music and trip out on psychedelics.

Boom (Portugal), Glade (UK), Burning man (US), Neon (Turkey), Earthcore (Australia), Full Moon (Thailand). To name but a few....

 

[AA357]

at 30 years old, you find meaning into seeing those kind of things. some do, some dont. at 17, I just wasnt ready to fully understand.

FYI I'm 25 years old. Please don't be so patronizing.

some do see a spiritual meaning and everybody around me do, but I guess some dont. I never met those kind of people so cant say why that happens.

I can see how some people might find the psychedelic experience spiritual, but I'm not talking about morphing plants FFS. That's just a typical LSD-type visual - it's no more spiritual than watching the walls breathe.

each their own, but now too impy that those who do see a spiritual meaning doesnt know anything in psychology or chemistry (???) is limit judgemental and could be insulting.

No, it's called being realistic. Psychedelics are great for meditation and expanding your consciousness so I can totally see how some people might see spiritual value in them for that reason.
Trouble is that with heightened consciousness comes increased suggestibility, especially in the weak-minded. People become obsessed with finding higher meaning in everything.
The visual distortion is a standard effect of taking psychedelics. The causes are chemical (your brain being overloaded by a 5-HT agonist) and psychological (from increased activity in areas of the brain associated with creativity).

 

[pupnik]

AA357;
I seem to be saying this to a lot of people:
"you think you know it all, but you don't"

conditioning is a huge part of it.

not just chemical or areas of the brain,

but who you are.

it gets pretty spiritual if you think about it
and if it doesn't there is a bit of a problem with you , like you think you know it all.

and I don't mean that in an airy fairy Whole Foods Hippie way.

 

[AA357]

AA357;
I seem to be saying this to a lot of people:
"you think you know it all, but you don't"

conditioning is a huge part of it.

not just chemical or areas of the brain,

but who you are.

it gets pretty spiritual if you think about it
and if it doesn't there is a bit of a problem with you , like you think you know it all.

and I don't mean that in an airy fairy Whole Foods Hippie way.

Did you even read my post? Get off your high horse.

What do you mean by conditioning?

The spiritual component comes from the meditative states you can get into on these drugs... not the fucking morphing objects. Get real... there is nothing deep or meaningful about plants appearing to die and come back to life when you're off your tits on acid - that's just your creative side coming out.
People overthink stuff and look for meaning where there is none. This is what leads to acid casualties.

 

[murphythecat]

hi
kk, I agree for the most part.
but I dont know, seeing entities that shows/teach me love, crazy jesters, demons, walls and corridors of different worlds. angels, ect. those are for me very spiritual and I dont think it makes me weak-minded.

of course, wall breathing is not spiritual and visual are often not spiritual, but for me feeling a profound bliss, feeling a profound oneness with my surrounding shows me a lot about myself, about what life is and what it could be and maybe even how life really is, if only I were to break the walls of my ego.
sorry if I sounded patronizing

about the chemistry of the brain, we will have to disagree. because once my brain is bypassed, I know I enter a realm where my brain is not responsible of what I see and experience and that my mind is somewhere else and definitely not related to my brain chemistry.

body and mind are not the same imo. I clearly know that my body breathe and my mind observes the breath and that my mind is not my body. My body will die and is not anything I can control, but my mind is highly maleable, which suggest that this mind, this consciousness, is the root of it all.
and I shit on everything psychology stand for. they dont help, they categorized, put people in boxes, limit them to their problems, offer no real alternative to a society based on greed, ego centricity, hatred, injustice which is the cause of most people problem.

FYI I'm 25 years old. Please don't be so patronizing.


I can see how some people might find the psychedelic experience spiritual, but I'm not talking about morphing plants FFS. That's just a typical LSD-type visual - it's no more spiritual than watching the walls breathe.


No, it's called being realistic. Psychedelics are great for meditation and expanding your consciousness so I can totally see how some people might see spiritual value in them for that reason.
Trouble is that with heightened consciousness comes increased suggestibility, especially in the weak-minded. People become obsessed with finding higher meaning in everything.
The visual distortion is a standard effect of taking psychedelics. The causes are chemical (your brain being overloaded by a 5-HT agonist) and psychological (from increased activity in areas of the brain associated with creativity).

 

[pupnik]

Did you even read my post? Get off your high horse.

What do you mean by conditioning?

The spiritual component comes from the meditative states you can get into on these drugs... not the fucking morphing objects. Get real... there is nothing deep or meaningful about plants appearing to die and come back to life when you're off your tits on acid - that's just your creative side coming out.
People overthink stuff and look for meaning where there is none. This is what leads to acid casualties.

yes I have heard it before
the spiritual component is not from the meditative states it is from how the meditation (not the state) conditions your personality over time.
and since the state does not matter, what matters is what you do most often, that is who you are.
conditioning is what is worked into your personality.

meditative conditioning can be spiritual

you cannot reduce it to chemistry.
people with a lot to offer have worked hard to get in condition to offer so much.

this is not chemistry

spiritual is not just echoes of ancient revelations,
it is actual progress in this life.

 

[Ismene]

No, it's called being realistic. Psychedelics are great for meditation and expanding your consciousness so I can totally see how some people might see spiritual value in them for that reason.

I don't think meditation is the link to spirituality that psychedelics offer tho. I never got anything spiritually from meditation like I get from psychedelics. I think the state that psychedelics create - the combination of activating old memories, heightening your feelings in a beautiful, gentle and achingly beautiful way, breathtaking physical euphoria - feeling like you're really alive for the first time in your life, feeling your body in ecstasy for the first time, all that combined with a spellbinding beauty and wonder at your surroundings. That's the thing that creates the spiritual feeling for me. It's as far from any standard religious dogma/meditation as I can imagine.