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psychedelic enlightenment my experience

you should not try to achieve jhanas in traffic.

also these altered states don't actually have insights, they are really stoned side effects of concentration.
if you get insights from them, take them with a grain of salt.
 
lol, how can you achieve jhanas in traffic? you couldnt even reach access concentration in traffic, which is far far far away from a jhanas. I hope this was a error but seriously, the fact that you said that is very weird. you cannot even come close to a meditative state without having a single object that you choose to concentrate on. and when driving a car, you have ridiculously too much different task to achieve.

about insight, you are wrong.
ayya khema and ajahn brahm and ajan chah which are practising jhanas for years and are very advanced and respected in the buddhism world all say that jhanas bring insight: its like obligatory, the cause and effect law in action. jhanas give insight automatically. not while being in the jhanas, because well its impossible, but as soon as you go out of the jhanas, your mind will gain insight.

The jhanas are exactly useful to gain insight into your own mind. meditation in pali means science of the mind. meditation is used to understand (insight) your mind. its useful exactly for that (insight).

bliss/hapiness is a natural state of the mind when unfetered by the hindrances. if you attain the first jhana, you automatically conteracted those hindrances and so experience bliss. thats the first jhana along with the 4 other factors.

meditation is not executed to attain the bliss, but to gain insight into your mind. meditation is use to gain insight, nothing more nothing else. its with those insight that you can eventually understand the true nature of your mind and the reality.

even calm meditation brings insight. not only insight meditation, but even calm insight is bound to have insight if done properly.

pupnik said:
you should not try to achieve jhanas in traffic.

also these altered states don't actually have insights, they are really stoned side effects of concentration.
if you get insights from them, take them with a grain of salt.
Click to expand...

even your use of the word altered states seem to go totally in the opposite direction. you meditate to go back into yourself, to stop to let your mind defile itself in the hindrances. therefore, you learn to discover the true nature of your mind. its a big deal, and a insight is a indeniable fact. your mind will not be able to take it with a grain of salt. its like, a insight is a truth that your mind is able to recognize as a fact. you cannot undo a insight.

thats why just before entering the first jhana, you need to stabilize the lights that you see, because the lights is the natural brillance of the mind. as long as the nimitta (light) moves, your mind moves. in order to get into the first jhana, you need to stabilize the nimitta until it fully engulf you with bliss until ''you'' attain the first jhana.
http://www.dhammatalks.net/Books/Ajahn_Brahm_The_Jhanas.pdf
 
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oh, it was not that way for me at first jhana.
and I found absorption possible but not a good idea at a stoplight.

at this point I think you should take this thread and present it to your Buddhist teacher and ask their opinion.
 
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you have not experienced first jhana if you have not experience what I described. you cannot say: it wasnt that for ME, because theres no YOU in the jhana. you get so concentrated into your object of meditation that you cannot even think about the self anymore and The thinking process is completely stopped and as the self is only a mental construction, there no you anymore. (as soon as you think, you loose the concentration and then can even get close to the first jhana).

there are 5 factor for first jhana and its the same and only factor that will cause the first jhana for everyone. the pure law of cause and effect. you cannot take away one of the five factor otherwise you cannot reach the first jhana. the same five factor will cause the first jhana. and the first jhana is the same for everyone.

the first jhana is the same for everybody. its not a different experience, its the same experience for everyone as theres not a you anymore. thats why they call meditation the science of the mind, because its repeatable and its the same for everybody and the insight also are the same for everyone. if you are able to maintain the 5 factor long enough, you will be able to reach the first jhana everytime.
''The first jhana possesses five component factors: applied thought, sustained thought, rapture, happiness and one-pointedness of mind''

when and if you do the right concentration, you will reach the first jhana.

but there right and bad concentration. its all very described also what is right and not right concentration. people think buddhism is a mythical non sense practice. but the more ive delved into it, the more its so simple and well described and the total opposite of vague.

I dont need a teacher here, all im doing is repeat all what the monk says. im not even able to sustain the application and maintain access concentration for more then 10 seconds. im far far away from first jhana, and you are most likely to.
pupnik said:
oh, it was not that way for me at first jhana.
and I found absorption possible but not a good idea at a stoplight.

at this point I think you should take this thread and present it to your Buddhist teacher and ask their opinion.
Click to expand...
for more information on the jhana, read this:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/authors/gunaratana/wheel351.html#ch3
and the atatched document on my last post.
Jhana is the main way the Buddha found enlightenment.
 
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Is there any genuine evidence that meditation is any good for you? Genuine evidence mind you - not a buddhist saying "It is yes".

I find it incredibly boring - I like an active mind filled with lots of thoughts like when you're learning a new musical instrument rather than being having an "empty mind". Surely boredom can't be good for you?

Obviously the mind state you reach on psychedelics is filled with thoughts - nothing remotely like an empty mind when you're tripping.
 
it is being used extensively in psycho therapy at this time, and that is because of peer reviewed studies in that discipline.
 
Ismene said:
Is there any genuine evidence that meditation is any good for you? Genuine evidence mind you - not a buddhist saying "It is yes".

I find it incredibly boring - I like an active mind filled with lots of thoughts like when you're learning a new musical instrument rather than being having an "empty mind". Surely boredom can't be good for you?

Obviously the mind state you reach on psychedelics is filled with thoughts - nothing remotely like an empty mind when you're tripping.
Click to expand...

For myself, I found training in Tibetan Buddhist meditation a potent adjunct to psychedelic exploration. In learning to hold my mind empty, I became aware that other levels of reality would more readily manifest. It was only in absolute stillness, accompanied by a special, highly developed quality of listening, that many subtle but extremely valuable nuances of reality appeared. While I achieved this to some extent in ordinary practice, I found this effect to be greatly amplified while under the influence of a psychedelic substance. This in turn intensified my daily meditation practice.

Myron J. Stolaroff. Using Psychedelics Wisely. Gnosis, No. 26, Winter 1993. https://www.erowid.org/psychoactives/writings/stolaroff_using.shtml
 
Ismene said:
Is there any genuine evidence that meditation is any good for you? Genuine evidence mind you - not a buddhist saying "It is yes".

I find it incredibly boring - I like an active mind filled with lots of thoughts like when you're learning a new musical instrument rather than being having an "empty mind". Surely boredom can't be good for you?

Obviously the mind state you reach on psychedelics is filled with thoughts - nothing remotely like an empty mind when you're tripping.
Click to expand...

When you're learning an instrument you have to teach your 'intuition' to do it using the 'stabilisers' of your thinking mind - to really play the instrument (or drive a car) you can't do it with the thinking bit of your brain, you have to get to a state of non-thinking. Musicians should recognise this state where you're not really thinking about what you're doing, you're just playing - you zone out and the thinking mind is not really involved and can wander to completely unrelated things (like when driving and you realise you didn't notice the last 10 miles - unromantic psychologists call this 'the zombie'). This is analogous to the practice of meditation i think. As far as i understand it (badly) the thoughts don't stop - you just have to learn not to be distracted by them as much. The boredom you refer to is just another one of those thought streams trying to distract you.
 
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Vurtual said:
When you're learning an instrument you have to teach your 'intuition' to do it using the 'stabilisers' of your thinking mind - to really play the instrument (or drive a car) you can't do it with the thinking bit of your brain, you have to get to a state of non-thinking. Musicians should recognise this state where you're not really thinking about what you're doing, you're just playing - you zone out and the thinking mind is not really involved and can wander to completely unrelated things (like when driving and you realise you didn't notice the last 10 miles - unromantic psychologists call this 'the zombie'). This is analogous to the practice of meditation i think. As far as i understand it (badly) the thoughts don't stop - you just have to learn not to be distracted by them as much. The boredom you refer to is just another one of those thought streams trying to distract you.
Click to expand...

the zombie in this case (poor word but I get it and agree with the division, also I like it better than sub conscious which creates a wrong separation in conscious processes),
is your training, the sum of all your reflex processes,
and as such I agree that this is major.

also I have to stress that meditation really is thinking as much as anything that happens in mind is thinking although I am sure many will try to disagree, but the quality of the thinking during meditation is hugely simplified and intentionally well ordered, or cultivated.

repeating a mantra is just as much thinking as going through a shopping list, but it is repeated with awareness and the intent is to support concentration.
the concentration of mind on the tip of the nose or on any chakkra is just as much thinking as remembering how to put on a shirt, but it is sustained.
a visualization is exactly that, a conjured thought form held in the mind's eye.
even cultivating mindfulness expresses intent to meditate which also is a thought form though not necessarily always a verbal one.
just sitting instead of being restless is just as much of a thought form as spending time identifying with your favorite famous actor while flipping through a trashy magazine.
even the silence of mind is a form of thought since it is the prevailing pattern in the mind when it is achieved.

(this will really disturb murphytc)
even the jhanas are thought, although the resonant feed back of this type of thought engages the limbic system as well and shifts the brain chemistry into what we are familiar with on psychedelic drugs.
even the revelations that are attended with the spectacular states of mind are thoughts and as such are just as subject to error as any other thought is.

that's one hella zombie once you train it good.
 
murphythecat said:
hi
kk, I agree for the most part.
but I dont know, seeing entities that shows/teach me love, crazy jesters, demons, walls and corridors of different worlds. angels, ect. those are for me very spiritual and I dont think it makes me weak-minded.

of course, wall breathing is not spiritual and visual are often not spiritual, but for me feeling a profound bliss, feeling a profound oneness with my surrounding shows me a lot about myself, about what life is and what it could be and maybe even how life really is, if only I were to break the walls of my ego.
sorry if I sounded patronizing :)

about the chemistry of the brain, we will have to disagree. because once my brain is bypassed, I know I enter a realm where my brain is not responsible of what I see and experience and that my mind is somewhere else and definitely not related to my brain chemistry.

body and mind are not the same imo. I clearly know that my body breathe and my mind observes the breath and that my mind is not my body. My body will die and is not anything I can control, but my mind is highly maleable, which suggest that this mind, this consciousness, is the root of it all.

and I shit on everything psychology stand for. they dont help, they categorized, put people in boxes, limit them to their problems, offer no real alternative to a society based on greed, ego centricity, hatred, injustice which is the cause of most people problem.
Click to expand...
No worries.
Realize though that the mind is a very complex and powerful thing. Not all of psychology is BS. For example, one of the most common visuals on psychedelics is seeing faces everywhere - this is called pareidolia (basically, the human mind is hard-wired to identify the human face).
Everybody has a subconscious. The conscious mind filters out a lot of unnecessary information. Psychedelic drugs take down these filters, overloading you with sensory input and allowing you access to your subconsious mind (which is what's turning these faces into angels, demons etc.).

Another thing: I'm 100% with you on the feeling of profound bliss, but this CAN be explained by chemistry and psychology (even though it feels too good to be true).
LSD is a classic serotonergic psychedelic. It has affinity for the 5-HT2A receptor. One of the effects of increased activity at this receptor is an increase in blood oxytocin levels - the 'love hormone' (which also plays a role in orgasm). So not only is your head full of artificial serotonin (another feel-good hormone); your oxytocin levels are elevated... it's no wonder it makes you feel so fucking great.
 
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pupnik said:
...that's one hella zombie once you train it good.
Click to expand...

I don't like the zombie because it's negative connotations (sort of reflects where a lot of western 'philosophy' is) - i see it as the real power of intelligence - parallel processing rather than the linear stream of consciousness that thinks it's you. Metaphor and poetry; insights and epiphanies (or playing Go) - these are the really complex things the brain/mind can do - the sort of things that really separate the AI men from the boys. (You talk a lot of sense about this stuff i reckon - attachment is attachment)
 
Access concentration is a term ive used many time in this thread, and means that the thinking process is underneath the surface. Access concentration is a buddhist term that means that the thinking process doesnt affect your mind anymore and you are able to simply follow the breath without ANY thinking. NO thinking at all. if you think, you are not in the present moment and you cannot say that youve acheived access concentration.

its like mediattion 101. all youve said here is simply assumption.

of course, when you begin meditation, you have intent, you have thinking, you have desires. but to be able to meditate, the thinking process WILL stop if you practice long enough. you will realize soon enough that your mind is pretty much crazy and that he thinks for no reason and that its the FIRST thing you have to do: STOP THINKING in order to follow the object of meditation (the breath for example)

even visualisation, the meditation starts only when the thoughts stop. you cannot say that youve ever meditated if youve never tasted the calm, peace and release of NO THINKING in the mind if only for 3 seconds. This IS meditation. its the beginning only, but the thinking process has to not be present anymore. once you achieve that, you know that this space between the thoughts is something very real and that tis always there, underneath your thoughts.

the hard part is to try to maintain that one pointedness long enough. but one pointedness means exactly that the only activity your mind is doing, is being concern with every moment of the breath (or any other meditation method youve chose).

if you think, you are not following the breath and so are not concentrated. everytime you think, you are not in the present moment, you are not experiencing the breath the moment you think. you cannot think and follow the breath. when you think, you loose the access concentration.
try it. follow the breath, and see how your mind thinks. you cannot follow the breath AND think. this is so basic.
the term one pointedness and acess concentration is central and means exactly what Ive described.

it took me about a month of practice to be able to acheive 5 seconds of access concentration. but stop that misinformation, when you are in access concentration, I assure you that the thought is not there anymore, only the breath.

men, seriously, go read about it, because your logic doesnt work here.
its a experience. if youve never had this experience, you can think all you want, but you will never be right and you will never be able to understand.

pupnik said:
the zombie in this case (poor word but I get it and agree with the division, also I like it better than sub conscious which creates a wrong separation in conscious processes),
is your training, the sum of all your reflex processes,
and as such I agree that this is major.

also I have to stress that meditation really is thinking as much as anything that happens in mind is thinking although I am sure many will try to disagree, but the quality of the thinking during meditation is hugely simplified and intentionally well ordered, or cultivated.

repeating a mantra is just as much thinking as going through a shopping list, but it is repeated with awareness and the intent is to support concentration.
the concentration of mind on the tip of the nose or on any chakkra is just as much thinking as remembering how to put on a shirt, but it is sustained.
a visualization is exactly that, a conjured thought form held in the mind's eye.
even cultivating mindfulness expresses intent to meditate which also is a thought form though not necessarily always a verbal one.
just sitting instead of being restless is just as much of a thought form as spending time identifying with your favorite famous actor while flipping through a trashy magazine.
even the silence of mind is a form of thought since it is the prevailing pattern in the mind when it is achieved.

(this will really disturb murphytc)
even the jhanas are thought, although the resonant feed back of this type of thought engages the limbic system as well and shifts the brain chemistry into what we are familiar with on psychedelic drugs.
even the revelations that are attended with the spectacular states of mind are thoughts and as such are just as subject to error as any other thought is.

that's one hella zombie once you train it good.
Click to expand...
oh, and repeating mantra is not theravada practice, its tibetan bouddhism practice. which I personally dont trust much. the buddha showed I think around 30 method for meditative absorption (following the breath is one method, theres many more), and repeating mantra is not one of them. tibbetan bouddhism is NOT to be confuse to theravada. its two different religion with very different practice and even beliefs.
 
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well there you go two people with completely different views.
me with 45 years meditation experience and a couple of live teachers and
murpheythecat

I am able to put it in clear simple western terms because I am not attached to the exotic majesty of ancient esoterica, and I can see inconsistencies in the written records.

My teachers were clear about the fact that very few monks were meditators, and that most were scholars, and that most of the scholars wrote and interpreted sutras and buddhist philosophy without personally experiencing much of it. so, if all you have is the writings, you should get ready for some shuffling of your concepts of what it is.
 
Ill believe ajahn brahm, ajan chah and ayya khema which are world reknown masters and have founded their own monasteries and are perfectly in tune with the buddha and are very consistent. Id be very careful with local teachers and I prefer following famous forest monks who have open mutiple monasteries all over the globe.
who are your local teachers again? lol.

you have 45 years of experience and youve never realize that you need to stop thinking in order to meditate? hmmm

we dont have different view. Im a buddhist theravada practinonner and all Ive said is repeat facts. Are you even sure you are buddhist because at this point, its seem like all I do is explain very basic stuff.
you even contradict simple definiton like one pointedness and access concentration or even mindfulness. this is meditation 101.

the fact you say stuff like its not recommended to attain jhana in traffic is honestly laughable and we are not having different views. you simply are not conssistent with what the monks and the buddha says. to put in politely, you seem to not know what you are talking about. You are not putting anything in clear and simple western terms. you are wrong in your assumption and completely saying stuff that its in total contradiction.
oh, and you are beginning to be a bit insulting. thanks. im out
pupnik said:
well there you go two people with completely different views.
me with 45 years meditation experience and a couple of live teachers and
murpheythecat

I am able to put it in clear simple western terms because I am not attached to the exotic majesty of ancient esoterica, and I can see inconsistencies in the written records.

My teachers were clear about the fact that very few monks were meditators, and that most were scholars, and that most of the scholars wrote and interpreted sutras and buddhist philosophy without personally experiencing much of it. so, if all you have is the writings, you should get ready for some shuffling of your concepts of what it is.
Click to expand...
im not attached to exotic majesty of ancient esoterica, im using commonly used term to explain the experience everyone who meditate have.
 
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you are following people who have never seen you, my teachers knew me, but have passed away.
what ever is in your head is a thought form
this includes what you put in your head to meditate with
even if it is in your body
all are forms
emptiness is form and form is emptiness
 
i tripped maybe 30 times in my life (lsd, mushrooms, ayahuasca)
Always thought it was extremely spiritual and enlightening. had acouple bad trips too.

in retrospect, i believe they create spiritual experiences,
but this will not create a more happy life in the long term.

what is needed for a happy life long term, is trying to be a good person, do good things and accept life as it is if u can't change it.
i'm glad i stopped chasing those "spiritual experiences", because i felt like they made me a more unstable person.

i dislike buddhism because they dont believe in god and because they teach to sit stilla nd watch breath to calm the thoughts lol....
i hate that.

we arent made to sit still, we're made to move around, love, laugh... and to connect to god i believe.
not necessary to believe in other peoples philosophies or religions, just to love god (sometimes by talking to god... but preferably by being kind to others. thats the best way to form connection to god imo)

and allow gods presence to enlighten your heart

~~~~

i recommend a healthy distrust in philosophic, spiritual and religious leaders;
shamanissm, energy workers, etc.

people like to take advantage of others, by pretending to be better than u or that they could help u or teach u something,
but i believe no-one can truely heal us, except ourselves...

we need to connect to god ourselves
other humans, they can't make that connection for us.
 
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pupnik said:
you are following people who have never seen you, my teachers knew me, but have passed away.
what ever is in your head is a thought form
this includes what you put in your head to meditate with
even if it is in your body
all are forms
emptiness is form and form is emptiness
Click to expand...

I never met the buddha, but his teaching remain true. Following the breath until your thinking stop is only the beginning and every teacher will tell you to do this. if you cant acheive that, better keep on practising until it works. if you get bored, its normal, but you need to let go of that boerdom as its been constructed with thoughts and its one of the 5 hindrances.

im out, was fun talking, but I prefer practising!
 
beforethebeginning said:
i tripped maybe 30 times in my life (lsd, mushrooms, ayahuasca)
...
we need to connect to god ourselves
other humans, they can't make that connection for us.
Click to expand...
aside from your distrust of some pretty good things,
what you say is pretty much true
you have to make the connection yourself
 
murphythecat said:
I never met the buddha, but his teaching remain true.
Click to expand...

There was never any such person as the buddha tho was there? And if a person with that name did exist obviously all the stories about him are bullshit - "he was born out of his mothers side??".

He never wrote a word of his own story - all the stories about him people made up centuries after he died (assuming he ever existed in the first place).

So how do we even known Budda himself "reached enlightenment"?
 
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