psychedelic enlightenment my experience

[Vurtual]

I never met the buddha, but his teaching remain true. Following the breath until your thinking stop is only the beginning and every teacher will tell you to do this. if you cant acheive that, better keep on practising until it works. if you get bored, its normal, but you need to let go of that boerdom as its been constructed with thoughts and its one of the 5 hindrances.

im out, was fun talking, but I prefer practising!

Your apparent purist approach to the true original buddhism (therevada) over other 'lesser' types seems to contradict the 'scientific' and adaptable nature of buddhism that you mentioned - over time after buddha, various changes and adaptations were made to the overall body of knowledge - this is the point of a mystical religion (you get to do it yourself and not (necessarily) just follow a rule book) - ironically, many of these changes were themselves efforts to return to the true original budhhism (eg zen). You seem to have a very intellectual view of buddhism as a correct recipie that has been corrupted, rather than the pragmatic flexible testable body of experiences that evolves over time as i (vaguely) know it - i personally have found therevada traditions to be more dogmatic and less engaging (maybe that's just me)

 

[pupnik]

Your apparent purist approach to the true original buddhism (therevada) over other 'lesser' types seems to contradict the 'scientific' and adaptable nature of buddhism that you mentioned - over time after buddha, various changes and adaptations were made to the overall body of knowledge - this is the point of a mystical religion (you get to do it yourself and not (necessarily) just follow a rule book) - ironically, most of these changes were themselves efforts to return to the true original budhhism (eg zen). You seem to have a very intellectual view of buddhism as a correct recipie that has been corrupted, rather than the pragmatic flexible testable body of experiences as i (vaguely) know it - i personally have found therevada traditions to be more dogmatic and less engaging (maybe that's just me)

my favorite meditation, and the one I still practice is technically Theravadin - Bumese style vipassana.
I have found it to be the simplest of them all.
and the most sustainable.

because Bhuddhism is a religion, the body of it is full of trinkets and social management. some of the imagery is very psychedelic friendly however, and even the accessible sutras have content that is meaningful to psychedelic explorers because it is about the personal journey.

 

[AA357]

i'm glad i stopped chasing those "spiritual experiences", because i felt like they made me a more unstable person.

Yeah, it will do. If you take this shit too seriously, you'll burn yourself out looking for answers and possibly cause yourself some psychological issues.
The best thing you can do is just take your tab, chill the fuck out and enjoy it.

 

[murphythecat]

go inform yourself at this point. buddhismt in very clear in their definitions and nothing vague about it and my approach is not purist, its simply I follow his teaching. which is in itself doesn't let place for vague description or misunderstanding.

I mean, the buddha teach his method to gain freedom from suffering and its all written in the pali canon that was written right after his death WITHOUT any changes over time. we know he existed and his teaching were written in the pali canon by all his disciples, and its proved by science, but have fun doubting this also. The teaching of the buddha has been followed by monks for thousand of years and they seem to appreciate what it makes to them. theravada is following only the buddha teaching. Theres many arahant (enlightened beings) that have come after him, but the buddha means he is the first to have found the way, the path. but there's a lot of enlightened being, but not a lot of buddha.

tibetan bouddhism, ZEN, is sometime in contradiction with the buddha.

what is dogmatic about theravada bouddhism? he only teach to release from suffering and that must be with experience. he specifically encourage people to simply test his teaching, which are based only in experience and to not follow him blindly. nothing dogmatic about the buddha. its the pure opposite. Im a buddhist because my meditation session are convincing to me and brings me lots of peace. then, when I began listing to famous monks, the amount of information they tell me shows to my mind that they are much more pure then me and my mind is simply captivated by those beings imbued with love and renunciation .
as for the message of the buddha being corrupted, I dont know where you get this, but this is not true. maybe your confusing other religions? other buddhist tradition may have corrupted his teaching or at least added parts and bits that the buddha would have dissaproved, but the pali canon has not changed.

Your apparent purist approach to the true original buddhism (therevada) over other 'lesser' types seems to contradict the 'scientific' and adaptable nature of buddhism that you mentioned - over time after buddha, various changes and adaptations were made to the overall body of knowledge - this is the point of a mystical religion (you get to do it yourself and not (necessarily) just follow a rule book) - ironically, many of these changes were themselves efforts to return to the true original budhhism (eg zen). You seem to have a very intellectual view of buddhism as a correct recipie that has been corrupted, rather than the pragmatic flexible testable body of experiences that evolves over time as i (vaguely) know it - i personally have found therevada traditions to be more dogmatic and less engaging (maybe that's just me)

BTW everyone, english is not my first language, so I know I talk a bit like a 6 grade lol.

 

[murphythecat]

Yeah, it will do. If you take this shit too seriously, you'll burn yourself out looking for answers and possibly cause yourself some psychological issues.
The best thing you can do is just take your tab, chill the fuck out and enjoy it.

indeed, enjoying it and happiness is the way.

the first jhana is bliss. we shouldn't get caught in any intellectual philosophical questions. lets just realize that the bliss we experience in a psy is real and always present. then, we must simply try to understand what blocks our sober self to experience that bliss that we so often experience in a psy.
and this is where I find the teaching of the buddha invaluable.

 

[Doldrugs]

I mean, the buddha teach his method to gain freedom from suffering and its all written in the pali canon that was written right after his death WITHOUT any changes over time.

The Pali canon was written over 400 years after his death. Didn't you play "telephone" as a child?

 

[Xorkoth]

I pretty much agree with that. It's possible, perhaps, to discover the answers to philosophical questions about the nature of existence... I believe I have, but that's something we can never know. What's more important by far is understanding that life is here to live, and enjoy, and experience, and that love is the key to happiness. This is real-world, directly applicable enlightenment that makes your life and the lives of everyone you touch better.

 

[murphythecat]

The Pali canon was written over 400 years after his death. Didn't you play "telephone" as a child?

it is important to say that all buddhist tradition accept the pali canon, not just theravada. and I do not want to dismiss all the many other traditions at all!
Ill quote someone on that topic. this is a very interesting topic but talk to death. read this thread if your really interested.
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?t=211

The Suttas are not 'sound bites' recorded as the Buddha spoke. They are compacted summaries of what was said, rehearsed and agreed upon by the Arahants at the Great Councils and memorised and chanted together by large groups of monks called Bhanakas (Reciters).

"Writing was unknown then, and so the Buddha’s sayings, as collected by his disciples, were committed to memory by a group of monks and were handed down to their disciples orally. There were probably two such groups, who, in order to distinguish themselves from each other, became known as Digha-Bhanakas and Majjhima-bhanakas. The other two Nikayas were later developments, their object being only to rearrange the topics dealt with in the Digha and the Majjhima".
http://www.quangduc.com/English/history ... ars07.html

The Suttas are teaching vehicles whose meanings are densely packed layer on layer. They are not to be read as an ordinary page of print, but require 'unpacking' by someone learned in the Dhamma. This condensed form was necessary in order that the Teachings would not be lost in the years before they were finally put into writing ~ engraved on leaves in Sri Lanka. It allowed them to be memorised by the large groups of bhikkhus (bhanakas) assigned to each portion of the Tipitaka. They are not verbatim reports of chats and conversations. This memorisation is said to have commenced before the parinibbana of the Buddha. Anything that is repeated is to be seen as something important which was highlighted by the repetition.

The Suttas are rather like the memory prompts - the dot points of the most important information to be transmitted - similar to those a public speaker carries for reference.
"Thus you should train yourselves: 'We will listen when discourses that are words of the Tathagata -- deep, deep in their meaning, transcendent, connected with emptiness -- are being recited. We will lend ear, will set our hearts on knowing them, will regard these teachings as worth grasping & mastering.' That's how you should train yourselves." (Ari sutta).

.... with regard to the accuracy of oral traditions ... Anthropologists agree that oral teachings are generally more accurate and less prone to "improving" than are written teachings

The Pali Suttas are summaries of what the Buddha meant to be passed on - and great care was taken, while he was alive and afterwards, to memorise them in a form that could not be distorted, and by a method that did not allow of deliberate alterations to meaning and content. The recitations were going on for the forty five years of the Buddha's teaching life. The repetitions in the suttas are pointer to the most important parts.

Venerable Mahá Kassapa, the Head of the First Council. Cúlavagga Xl,1,1 (ii,284) reiterated:
"Come, friends: let us recite the Teaching and the Discipline before what is not the Teaching shines forth and the Teaching is put aside, before what is not the Discipline shines forth and the Discipline is put aside, before those who speak what is not the Teaching become strong and those who speak what is the Teaching become weak, before those who speak what is not the Discipline become strong and those who speak what is the Discipline become weak."

So the system was in place before the Buddha passed away. The Pali suttas are extremely condensed summaries of the Buddha's teachings, packed with meaning, which need to be unpacked by those learned in the Dhamma. They were preserved in that form to aid memorising and chanting by the large groups of Bhikkhus called Bhanakas (Reciters) i.e. Majjhima-bhanakas, Digha-bhanakas etc. Each group was allocated a small portion of the Tipitaka to keep pristine and pass on. This began even while the Buddha was alive.

It was only hundreds of years later in Sri Lanka, in a time of famine and warfare, with many bhikkhus dying, and with Buddhism all but wiped out in India, that the MahaSangha decided the Teachings needed to be written down. They were engraved on Ola Leaves. Many of us have been to Sri Lanka and have had the inestimable good fortune to have seen demonstrations of this being done at the ancient rock temple of Aluvihara Temple (where the Tipitaka was originally written down) in the Matale district 26 km from Kandy.

 

[Doldrugs]

What you stated was incorrect, dude. You should just own it. It's impossible that information was accurately repeated orally over 450 years and you know it.

 

[murphythecat]

What you stated was incorrect, dude. You should just own it. It's impossible that information was accurately repeated orally over 450 years and you know it.

I'll quote someone else on this subject but we all know that the four noble truth and the noble path has not been falsified. its so simple as to be certain that it was truly well transmitted. again, you just show your false prejudice and limit bad intentions. you dont want to learn, you dont want to inform yourself, im not sure what you want here.

If the Pali canon does not come from the Buddha -- it sure comes from a genius -- and that genius can only be the Supreme Buddha.

It is perfect in it's understanding of the mind and perfect in it's reasoning and execution.

The Pali Canon seems as if it has no certain order to an undeveloped mind--and many have said it seems too hard to understand, so they read books by other Buddhists getting full of wrong views...

the teachings are like a puzzle of the 4 Noble Truths , they start coming together (aggregates) as you practice the dhamma in accordance with the dhamma.

You will know that you are NOT practicing correctly if your understanding is decreasing, if the pieces of the puzzle don't fall together.

So it is not on blind faith that I believe the Tipitika to be authentic teachings. There others who have noticed the same thing. .

I sure have a lot of fun practicing and the more I practice, the more I realize how beneficial for my well being it all is and how true it all is. and thats all that matters!

the main aspect of buddhism is the noble path, four noble truth and the hindrances. iThis, you can be sure the buddha thaught those things. not very hard for oral tradition to not falsify the message and the teaching as its SO simple. the four noble truth and the noble path is basically the teaching in its entirety and there no way you can twist that. capish? one could only know that and be on their way to enlightenment.

you will just have to put those belief to test, or not and doubt all your life and try to find your own way to happiness. nothing wrong with that at all, but for this time being, so far, I get a lot of pleasure practicing and a lot of joy knowing that im on the right path. as simply meditating on loving kindness as brought to me so much happiness that I cannot doubt the beneficial aspect of meditation in my life. its becoming a means to happiness. without meditation, I would be very miserable. the more I meditate, the more Im happy. and thats all that matters !

 

[Doldrugs]

That is completely illogical reasoning. "It's Buddha because I feel like it's great so it must be Buddha because I feel like he's great." That's easily the least convincing defense of anything I've ever read.

Doubting is the cornerstone of rational thought.

 

[murphythecat]

That is completely illogical reasoning. "It's Buddha because I feel like it's great so it must be Buddha because I feel like he's great." That's easily the least convincing defense of anything I've ever read.

Doubting is the cornerstone of rational thought.

true, doubting is reasonable and even encouraged. but you are doubting everything at this point. too bad

Ive truly explain to you rational reasoning to belief that the teaching of the buddha was well transmitted and you dont answer those points.

you stick to your guns without even listening to rational arguments.

oh I get it, your point your trying to make is you are smarter then buddhist and that buddhist are dumb and blind and unable to rational thinking.

if you begin to practice, it will all fall into place and you will understand that his teaching works. as long as you dont practice, you will never be able to make a rational opinion on his teaching because it demands practice to understand. its not a intelectual practice but a experiential practice. it doesnt demand blind faith at all, but to follow and test for yourself his methods. if you do correctly, you would be amazed by how much your mind can do and undo, how much your mind is maleable and that you can change bad habits and makes your life much easier.

the funny thing is that the first thing you will have to drop in order to practice, is that rational thinking and start experiencing the present moment. because you cant think and experience at the same time.

 

[Xorkoth]

The main point I get from your post is that your meditation practices and adherence to the "4 noble truths" has brought you happiness and balance in your life, and that's great. I'm not sure if it matters whether it comes unaltered from the Buddha or not.

 

[silas GUY]

The despair of defiance. Aware of inner self and wishing to affirm this self, but without recognizing the relatedness to and ultimate dependence of the human self on universal energies.
The emergence from comfortable ignorance into self-consciousness leads to dread, or anxiety. We live in a condition of ambiguity in which we can not be either animal or angel. This dread, or anxiety, can be a springboard for growth into new dimensions .
intolerant of, the hypocrisy of pretending to spirituality while actually acting from worldly motives.

 

[Ismene]

Which do you find the most valuable of the two murphy? If you had to pick between psychedelics and buddhism which do you think you'd go for? Or is that an unfair question as you would always do both?

 

[murphythecat]

Which do you find the most valuable of the two murphy? If you had to pick between psychedelics and buddhism which do you think you'd go for? Or is that an unfair question as you would always do both?

Ill be honest here.
Its a HWBR trip that made me understand what Ive been looking for all my life, that we are all one mind, and that we are all looking for the same thing.but its buddhism that made me understand that it was normal to suffer, that all this talking in my head wasnt crazy, but normal and that theres a way to better myself and that its not in society that you will find this happiness.

after my HWBR trip, ive began the research about my experience. it brought me to quantic physics, then buddhism.I can see mistakes in any argumentation or philosophical point of view, but not in buddhism. the more you actually learn about it, the more it becomes evident. im a very rational person and I believe that buddhism is a science. the science of your awareness and your mind. this was 5 years ago. I was a mess back then and I had a lot of moral issues. Ive listen to countless monks talks. starting from venerable robina, to ajahn brahm, to ajahn chah and finally, a said arahant, ayya khema. During this time, my whole outlook have changed simply but confronting my ill will and negativity in my thoughts. its now been only 5 month Ive began really practicing (meditation and practicing mindfulness in every moment: of course, this is the hardest part!). I now practice 2 hours per day, and its really transformative. so far, so good!!!!
but I still crave sensual pleasure, so for now, psychadelics will be part of my life! but I can say that I find hapiness in a lot of things now, where as before, I was very picky about what I loved ect.

I think psychadelic and buddhism are both teachers. I see psychadelics as real teachers, especially shrooms and mescaline and dmt. those have been really helpful in my life and seem to again correlate buddhism is every way. but theres a limit in those experience. when you go into deep meditation, its a experience totaly removed from any worldly pleasures. its a totally new way of being that psy cannot give you if you havent experienced this in a sober way. and ultimately, that kind of way of being seems much more pure. it takes a lot more effort at the beginning to reach, and im not there yet at all, but it feels much more pure. its like, you purify yourself. when you meditate, you cannot have ill will, sensual desire, doubt, problems, you are just in the present moment of the breath. or when you do loving kindness, filling your heart of love and then permeate your whole body of love then think of people in your life then fill them with love feels just so good and right. I even get distracted by the sensual pleasure of it all, because I begin to feel as if my body as no limits and I become a sort of loving ball. I can feel the energy build up between my arms among other weird feeling. it happens every time and its quite disturbing as I need to let that pleasant feeling go.
However, loving kindness is limiting in the way that its much harder to not think when you visualize. breathing meditation is much more conductive to deep meditation and all my deep meditation have happened with that method. its much harder though, as your mind is at the beginning crazy and bored with following the breath. you then understand that you are not in control of the mind and that you let the mind think what he wants. lol

now, I will stop this non sense talk about me and my beliefs, all I wanted is to help clarify certain aspects.

 

[pupnik]

murphytc, you deserve recognition for pulling yourself along this route.
after five years you are now an authority on your own path to some degree, and it seems to be working for you.
keep a light heart.

 

[Vurtual]

Murphy your answers are very intellectual, and quite purist sounding [edit - referring to the answer to my post not the one above] - i know a little about the pali cannon and buddhist traditions, i'm just suggesting that maybe buddha would agree with me that nothing should be set in stone, and things should be tested and maybe changed/evolved as new circumstances and contexts arise; that's not to dismiss the pali cannon, just also not to dismiss later tradtions and even modern syncretisms.

I like zen as it doesn't take itself as seriously, is less 'intellectual' and a bit anarchic (but horses for courses - i'm not a 'buddhist' in any way; fellow traveller maybe).

 

[murphythecat]

thanks! I really hope to not have come here and impose any of my beliefs, I simply wanted to clarify some real misconception and misinformation about buddhism that I see not only here, quite the contrary, but in our society that seem to put all religions in the same basket!

psychadelics shows us the importance of love, kindness, respect for every being and compassion and how life is sacred and to not loose it in trivial self gratifyine activities. this is one of the most important message and any real psychonaut clearly understand this, otherwise bad trips are unavoidable and people stop taking psy. Then, the bliss that is been shown is also quite the teacher!

murphytc, you deserve recognition for pulling yourself along this route.
after five years you are now an authority on your own path to some degree, and it seems to be working for you.
keep a light heart.

 

[pupnik]

Well you have certainly corrected us about what you believe, which, as I agree, you are an expert in after 5 years of immersion and dedication.