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What is wrong with the MDMA available today?

vash445

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May 3, 2015
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208
So talked to NMR guy as we seem to be exhausted almost every test. Lucky me I remember something.

Me: Anyways my only guess now is maybe the skill of crystallization such a .h20 entering the crystal lattice

People were talking about a while fluffy snow product being magic that hints either borohydrides or column ran product...

Def not the MDMA boulders we use to

Him: Water in lattice shouldn't matter especially if one lets crystallization happen in touches and slowly. Then it's pure on the insides

Me: pretty sure I read that it effect bioavailability strangely enough read articles brlow

His message
As for the polymorphs, I 100% should have been able to considered it as a potential issue. Its been a while since, but i was certainly taught of its existance. those papers were very good. And opens the door for some new tests.



 
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vash445

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May 3, 2015
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Figure 2: Pictorial representation (a) Amorphous form (b) Crystalline form (c) Hydrates and Solvates (d) Clathrates O Drug molecule * Solvent molecule OTrapped drug molecule





As far as dosage form development is concerned, following general rules are advised for the APIs which show polymorphism: (a) Selection of the lowest energy polymorph as it is the most thermodynamically stable form; (b) Avoidance of the metastable forms, though they are more physically stable, but chemically less stable. Attempts should be made to play with the excipients to achieve the set pharmaceutical goals, instead of selecting the metastable form; (c) Maintenance of such conditions which will avoid transitions from metastable form to the stable form throughout the shelf-life of the product, if the former form is selected due to a particular reason like bioavailability enhancement; (d) Assurance of avoidance of any polymorphic transition in the dosage form throughout its shelf-life, if so, the same should not significantly affect the product quality and bioavailability [19, 20].
 

vash445

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May 3, 2015
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The investigation of drug polymorphism is an essential step in any formulation. While formulating a drug product physiochemical stability, solubility and bioavailability of active ingredient are prominent are factors. The Study of polymorphism is necessarily predominant acquire comprehensive knowledge on rapid absorption of low solubility drugs in systemic circulation. In order to increase the effective surface area of the drug substances by turning them into different shapes, the empowerment of dissolution rate and bioavailability by employing recrystallization technique is very important. Since most of the drugs are examined through oral route practice, the size and shape of the crystal play a key note is their dissolution rate, as proved by Noyes Whitney, through his equation. In this an crystal view point the writer makes an effort to prove the importance of polymorphism in pharmaceuticals and how it shows its impact on pharmaceutical properties like solubility, dissolution rate, bioavailability, etc. of drug substances.

Polymorphs are broadly classified into two types. They are 1. Monotropes 2. Enantiotropes. For a monotropic system, plots of free energy of the various polymorphs against temperature do not cross before all polymorphs become melt. For an enantiotropic system, a plot of the free energy against temperature shows a crossing point at various melting points, and it may be possible to convert reversibly the two polymorphs on heating and cooling. Enantiotropes are members of a pair of polymorphs whose mutual transitional temperature is less than the melting point of either of the polymorph [7] [8].

Polymorphic differences and transformation that result in different apparent solubility and dissolution rate are generally detected by dissolution testing. If there are differences in the solubility of various polymorphs, they will show effect upon drug product, bioavailability, bioequivalence, gastrointestinal motility and intestinal permeability. A drug with dissolution as the rate limiting step, the polymorphic form affects the bioavailability and bioequivalence. If a drug has permeability as the rate limiting step, solubility of polymorphic forms show less effect on bioavailability and bioequivalence.

Stability

Polymorphs of a pharmaceutical solid may have different physical and chemical solid state properties. The most stable polymorphic form of a drug substance is often used because it has the lowest potential for conversion from one polymorphic form to another while the metastable form may be used to enhance the bioavailability. The relative polymorphic stability may be determined by an appropriate examination of the relative apparent solubility of supersaturated solution of polymorphic pairs. Since the rate of conversion to the more stable form is often rapid when mediated by the solution phase, the less stable polymorph with the grater apparent solubility dissolves, while the more stable polymorph with the lower apparent solubility crystallizes out upon sanding. One polymorph may convert to another during manufacturing and storage, particularly when a metastable form is used.


The study of polymorphism is necessary to acquire knowledge on rapid absorption of low solubility of drugs in systemic circulation, to improve dissolution rate and bioavailability. From the above information we can conclude that the order of solubility of different forms of polymorphs are amorphous > metastable > stable form, whereas in terms of either stability the order is stable > amorphous > metastable.
 

user666

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Feb 13, 2020
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I have seen two 1st time users (28 y.o. boyfriend and girlfriend with no previous drug use nor any anti-depressant use) dissolve 300mg of crystal MDMA in a glass of tap water. It dissolved completely, the liquid was absolutely clear and no sediment was left at the bottom of the glass. After drinking it on an empty stomach, they came up in about half an hour, but their high was sleepy, lackluster and short (2.5h). They just sat at a table the entire time and chatted from time to time. Their eyes did not even dilate and jaws did not clench. I was their sitter so I paid attention to the eyes and jaws. The powder was bought in Rotterdam, it was champagne colored, rocky and had been tested in a Dutch testing center as containing only MDMA and 2% Caffeine.
 
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user666

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Feb 13, 2020
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If anyone has any other off the wall ideas shoot them here.
All the variabilities of crystalline polymorphisms can be ignored when the MDMA salt powder is completely dissolved in water for consumption.
A liquid solution has no crystalline structure, thus crystalline polymorphs do not exist in it.

...and whatever has not dissolved in water was not an MDMA salt to begin with.
 
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S.J.P.

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All the variabilities of crystalline polymorphisms can be ignored when the MDMA salt powder is completely dissolved in water for consumption.
A liquid solution has no crystalline structure, thus crystalline polymorphs do not exist in it.

...and whatever has not dissolved in water was not an MDMA salt to begin with.
Yeah, exactly. Unless you are eating your dose as one 120 mg rock, this is not going to be a factor. Polymorphism is important for pharmaceuticals with poor solubility and complex formulations, but with MDMA hydrochloride powder in a gel cap, the gel cap is going to be the bottleneck for dissolution.

It seems that anhydrous MDMA hydrochloride only appears as one polymorph.

Having the hydrate, however, will have a small effect on the drug's action, as hydration will reduce the effective mass of the active component. MDMA hydrochloride is known to come in several hydration levels:
Alexander T. Shulgin said:
The hydrochloride salt can occur in a number of hydrated crystalline forms, making the physical properties and solid spectra of risky value for identification and as criteria of purity. The following melting points (m.p.) are given: for anhydrous, 147°-148° (Bailey et al. 1975), 148°-149° (Biniccki & Krajewski 1960), 148°-150° (Davis & Borne 1984 : Merck 1914), 150-151°(Gaston & Rasmussen 1972), 151 °-152° (Braun. Shulgin & Braun 1980a), 152°-153° (Braun, Shulgin & Braun 1980a), 158°-159° (Nichols, In: Frith 1968b); for quarter-hydrate, soften 132° and m.p. 135°-139° (Shulgin 1986); for hemihydrate, soften 92° and m.p. 138°-145° (Shulgin 1986); for three-quarter hydrate, soften 50° and m.p. 90-132° (Shulgin 1986); for monohydrate, soften 80° and m.p. 107 °-133° (Shulgin 1986).
The quarter-hydrate will be 98% of the potency of the anhydrous compound; hemihydrate, 96%; three-quarter-hydrate, 94%; and monohydrate, 93%.
 
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vash445

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May 3, 2015
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Yeah, exactly. Unless you are eating your dose as one 120 mg rock, this is not going to be a factor. Polymorphism is important for pharmaceuticals with poor solubility and complex formulations, but with MDMA hydrochloride powder in a gel cap, the gel cap is going to be the bottleneck for dissolution.

It seems that anhydrous MDMA hydrochloride only appears as one polymorph.

Having the hydrate, however, will have a small effect on the drug's action, as hydration will reduce the effective mass of the active component. MDMA hydrochloride is known to come in several hydration levels:

The quarter-hydrate will be 98% of the potency of the anhydrous compound; hemihydrate, 96%; three-quarter-hydrate, 94%; and monohydrate, 93%.

SO anyone have any other bright ideas similar to this one? Something we could at least run more tests on?
 

tripnnface

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Jan 15, 2010
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^^How long you been rolling? What presses were they?

-Gc

been rolling since about 2008.

One was a blue fortnite, and the other was actually a pharaoh. so only one cp. started with half the pharaoh, then ate a full cp. was rolling well into the morning , never felt super fiendy either... well,not after the full fortnite at least lol.

never got floored, jaw grinding, solid body load, some eye wiggles. i was blitzed for sure.
 

somnilicious

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Jul 31, 2012
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Didn't check my eyes, so I don't know about that. But, yeah, stuff felt nice. Puling on the skin on my arm and face felt cool as hell and i sadly didn't listen to any music on the peak. At least not good music. We we're just hanging out, talking our asses off. Great time, though.

That's great to hear that I got some good stuff. It was great, definitely among my favorite drugs i've ever done. I'd say it felt like Meth if Meth felt clean and pure and not like, well, meth. Euphoria through the roof.
Did you feel closer to the people you were with, as if they were beloved family and irreplaceable friends? Did you feel the need to share the most intimate details of your life with them, tell them how much they meant to you, how much you loved them and life? Did your vision bounce around and your eyes wiggle back and forth, while your jaw slid side to side and you grinded or chattered your teeth during lovey dovey outpourings of appreciation and proclamations of love? Did simply breathing or rubbing your arms and head feel orgasmic? If it really was magic MDMA then you were really missing out on the whole experience by not listening to music, which is a must for enhancement and a truly mind blowing MDMA experience.
 
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popsweat

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Dec 13, 2019
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^^^ qdance is the pressing crew. They are responsible for the ikeas, skypes, m&ms, sprites, iPhone X etc

they are super hard press and bilayered so very difficult to copy which keeps the quality top notch. If you look up reviews on pillreports or reddit for any of their presses you will see reports of magic experience such as eye wiggles, euphoria , desire to dance.
 

majk13

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Sep 16, 2019
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^^° pillseports is manipulated by mdma producers. Everyone can enter to write superlatives about a given product. The only sources of truth are internet forums, but here too often manipulation occurs, for example, you have several posts and praise a product, why should we believe you?
 

Kaden_Nite

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^^^ qdance is the pressing crew. They are responsible for the ikeas, skypes, m&ms, sprites, iPhone X etc

they are super hard press and bilayered so very difficult to copy which keeps the quality top notch. If you look up reviews on pillreports or reddit for any of their presses you will see reports of magic experience such as eye wiggles, euphoria , desire to dance.
If you get those batches when they are hot off the press in EU, good chance that you're getting the genuine article.

Once a particular stamp gains a following though, the follow-up batches tend to get worse and worse with every re-issue and are most likely no longer coming from the original manufacturers. Just copycats riding on the coattails of another crew's success.

Over the past few years, certain companies seem to be attempting to make it more difficult for counterfeiters with increasingly difficult designs, lately a few bi-coloured presses for example.
 

popsweat

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Dec 13, 2019
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^^° pillseports is manipulated by mdma producers. Everyone can enter to write superlatives about a given product. The only sources of truth are internet forums, but here too often manipulation occurs, for example, you have several posts and praise a product, why should we believe you?
I understand you skepticism and rightful so. Just trying to provide some feedback after lurking this thread for a while and seeing everything spin in circles over NMR analysis.

I have been doing mdma since the 90s and sourcing it online since bitcoin was less than $100. I am probably sitting on over 30 different batches currently. Some of which vendors making outrageous claims like being produced with more S or R isomers than normal. My favorite batch was produced by a famous active lsd vendor who sold triple washed recrystalized mdma but discontinued due to increased competition and new precoursers. It is probably the finest mdma I have ever done.

The only “brand” I have been experiencing magic is from these q dance presses whichI agree is not ideal to some but at least provides consistent results for me.
 

indigoaura

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Jan 4, 2009
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@vash445 Polymorphism was discussed earlier in the thread fairly extensively. Hard to recall exactly where in the thread, but I remember reading about it. Although it can impact bio-availability, those discussing it did not feel like it was the issue (as I recall).

Also, there have been reports of magic powder and magic crystals in the thread. I don't know that magic is limited to one particular form. My "meh" products have had a variety of appearances, from a dry powder to a large rock.

@popsweat One of the issues I have with Qdance pills, from what I have read and seen, is that they contain such a large amount of MDMA. That amount of MDMA should be overwhelming, and it is really not a safe dose. Why is there a need for such a high dosage when an old 70 mg pill would blow people away? The other vendor you describe sounds interesting and needed on the DW. I have hardly seen anything with any detail or quality in the listing. It all seems very mass produced and dumbed down for the most part.

I can't speak for everyone, but from my perspective, we are trying to do more here than just identify who has made quality pills. We want to know WHY some batches of MDMA produce different, sub-par effects. We want some type of knowledge that can benefit the whole community, so that a test could be produced, or someone like Drugs Data can adjust their approach to differentiate quality from inferior product.

The NMR may seem like spinning wheels to you, but analytical data is one of the only things that is actually going to push this conversation towards a concrete answer.
 

majk13

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Sep 16, 2019
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Yesterday evening I gave my wife mdma to test, which I described in an earlier post.

She has not taken mdma for 15 years, she used mdma twice before. 200 mg dose. Strong entry, dizziness. After 40 minutes, the state calmed down. The pupils were huge for almost all eyes, she was very talkative all evening, she has lockjaw. Zero feelings of happiness or any improvement in mood, no improvement in perception of touch. She felt alienated.

A friend of mine also tested and reportedly described his experiences.

In my opinion, there is no reaction to serotonin receptors, the only question is why?
 
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