Why don't people stay on benzos for life?

[Dagda Mochta]

I plan to take benzos for life because I need them. If they invent a better alternative I will certainly be all for it. But for now clonazepam lowers my anxiety, helps my chronic back pain, and helps me sleep. And at the miniscule dose that I have worked myself down to I don't think I'll have any problems.

We desperately need research and development of safe and effective anti-anxiety meds that don't carry such a risk of dependency (benzos/pregabalin/gabapentin) and horrendous side effects (SSRI's, anti-psychotics).

 

[Ziiirp]

shit man what's your issue? lol i'm not addicted to etizolam at least. My point was that the whole idea of clean is silly and detrimental. I don't really care if i'm clean, you're clean or anyone's clean or not. What does that have to do with anything? I'm not in utter self denial, if you read my other post i do want to eventually quit etizolam, not to be clean but because of other reasons. To go around bashing people because they aren't clean because they are on medications is just pointless.

The only one I bashed is you, because you did not seem to read the thread thoroughly. Instead you tried to justify your drug usage, which I do not care the slightest about. The argument came up, when a user mentioned, that they was clean, when they in reality are/becoming addicted to a speed/benzo - combo. I just can't tolerate, when someone twists definitions to silence their conscience. Young readers could get the impression, that they can pop as many benzos/speed pills as they want, without any harmful consequence. That was the point and not bashing drug users in the first place, as I am one of them.

I won't answer the rest, as I do not know you and do not want to be the cause for you to be popping more benzos/etizolam.

 

[AlphaMethylPhenyl]

No. I never said that. I went through six years of SSRIs/APS/mood stabilizers/atypical antidepressants/sleep meds/supplements/meditation before trying the two drugs which actually worked for me. Young readers have a hell of a lot more on this site to justify their drug usage than me saying that I found the medication which works for me, which I never abuse nor ever shall.

Just because something can be abused, doesn't make it illegitimate as a possible medicine.

Robot is right that in the world we live in medication usage is merely a continuation of the efficiency/logic/productivity and science-driven character which colors our existence, not 'dirty' in any way. I live by the rules. I am clean. Welcome to the 21st century.

Everyone has addictions...think of yours, drug or not. Does that make you not 'clean'? I suppose one is only truly clean according to you if they constantly achieve samadhi through meditation or meditate all day. Do you understand how your point-of-view doesn't hold? Habit define us. Dependence on something is what keeps us going. There is nothing qualitatively different between a drug habit and a hobby, especially if its within the law.

You're right that money controls most of the world. But you must understand...in fact, read kant's categorical imperative. Conspiracy and tyranny over the people isn't as prevalent as you imply. Doctors do help people.

And don't bash people. This is civil. Or would you prefer everyone to fight?

 

[Mysterie]

shit man what's your issue? lol i'm not addicted to etizolam at least. My point was that the whole idea of clean is silly and detrimental. I don't really care if i'm clean, you're clean or anyone's clean or not. What does that have to do with anything? I'm not in utter self denial, if you read my other post i do want to eventually quit etizolam, not to be clean but because of other reasons. To go around bashing people because they aren't clean because they are on medications is just pointless. Are you trying to upset these people? they don't care, i don't care, you can bash me into the ground while i take my etizolam for anxiety and dexedrine to concentrate, i don't really care. Boss just wants money, if my combo of drugs makes more money then we're all happy.

what is your real opposition to this? big pharma taking over the world? i don't see your argument, i can think of a few you could use but you haven't presented one. If you want, while high on my scripted medications i can come up with them for you and argue it out completely in a logical and reasonable manner. There's a pretty obvious one for amphetamine use as well as benzo use, why don't you just use that argument instead of coming off all grumpy?

i haven't been brainwashed or programmed, if i were, i wouldn't know it anyway but i can still out function my peers without drugs, it's just that with this particular combo i can completely destroy them. Maybe you find that threatening?

i agree with Ziiirp here although it is wrong for him to assume you have an addiction to etizolam

nobody can stop you from using benzos for life, it does not affect anyone except urself, but for you to try to say that telling someone that you cant take benzos and be clean, is incorrect, and for us to let everyone read that its not a problem for you to become addicted to stims and benzos for life and there aren't problems that come long term is an oversight imo.

i also think its a cop out to say you need drugs to 'function' in society

 

[Mysterie]

There is nothing qualitatively different between a drug habit and a hobby, especially if its within the law.

you cant be serious... i dnt even know where to begin, low dose benzo/amphetamine (legal narcotic) is vry far apart qualitatively from aspirin (legal drug)

also quieting the mind through meditation is experiencing reality a lot closer than when you for example, escape reality through drugs... you are saying almost polar opposite activities (polar opposite in more aspects, than their short-term similarities) are the same thing

 

[AlphaMethylPhenyl]

I am clean. Shall I state it again?

You don't understand the philosophy I'm introducing.

I meditated for a year and a half every day for 45 minutes. How much did you do? I learned more about myself from amp than meditation, though not about the world. Meditation is anti-self. Its not for me. I know more about it than you, so cut out the condescension.

'For me' is medication and socialization.

I tried being kind about this.

Oh yeah, I'm clean. Did I mention that?

 

[Ziiirp]

And don't bash people. This is civil. Or would you prefer everyone to fight?

Okay, I apologize to RobotRipping for ascribing the Etizolam - addiction to him, when I really cannot know, because we have never met. That post was a bit hostile, but his preceding post seemed to be the result of being "high on his medication" (direct quote) rather than of reading carefully and contributing to the topic.

Back to the recent discussion.

No. I never said that. I went through six years of SSRIs/APS/mood stabilizers/atypical antidepressants/sleep meds/supplements/meditation before trying the two drugs which actually worked for me. Young readers have a hell of a lot more on this site to justify their drug usage than me saying that I found the medication which works for me, which I never abuse nor ever shall.

Just because something can be abused, doesn't make it illegitimate as a possible medicine.

Robot is right that in the world we live in medication usage is merely a continuation of the efficiency/logic/productivity and science-driven character which colors our existence, not 'dirty' in any way. I live by the rules. I am clean. Welcome to the 21st century.

Everyone has addictions...think of yours, drug or not. Does that make you not 'clean'? I suppose one is only truly clean according to you if they constantly achieve samadhi through meditation or meditate all day. Do you understand how your point-of-view doesn't hold? Habit define us. Dependence on something is what keeps us going. There is nothing qualitatively different between a drug habit and a hobby, especially if its within the law.

I think we are confusing the terms (we have different definitions) :

stable vs. clean

addiction vs. passion

You seem to be very stable, perhaps more stable than me, but it has nothing to do with being clean. You do not have to meditate all day (it helps though) to reach the state of a sharp mind, which is not modulated by additional chemical signals, but is oscillating at a balanced level, i.e. is clean. I have friends, that are straight edge and vegetarian and never touch hard drugs (theanine being the hardest), but work more enthusiastic than me because they are disciplined. Naturally, they have their hobbies, that help them to stay stable, i.e. going to concerts, running, cycling, etc. but for me, as long as these hobbies are just exchangeable passions, they cannot be compared to an addiction/dependency (for me, every dependent person is also addicted, so dependancy is a superset of addiction) on hard drugs. In fact, the challenge is, not to get addicted to your passions. Also your lover can become an addiction; that is basically the same misery as a chemical addiction. What I wanted to say, the aim is, to be stable and clean at the same time. For me, you are stable, but you are not clean (neither am I), but that is just my opinion.

I have the feeling, that you're convinced of the fact, that life is a constant search for dopamine release triggering events, when I think the key to satisfaction is to give up that search and just calm the fuck down and relax and help other people to do the same, but only if they ask first. And as long I did not calm down - be clean and stable at the same time - I cannot help them much.

You're right that money controls most of the world. But you must understand...in fact, read kant's categorical imperative. Conspiracy and tyranny over the people isn't as prevalent as you imply. Doctors do help people.

I agree they also help people, obviously they helped you becoming stable. But in that case they only provided a short-term solution for a long-term (life long) problem. Real solutions cost more dedication and awareness than ingesting chemicals constantly. I am no conspiracy theorist but the current development in drug education is horrendous, when even intelligent people like you take it as constituted to need drugs in order to function (for the authorities).

Okay, that was a lot of text, I could have written more, but I don't want to spam this thread anymore with my ramblings :D

 

[AlphaMethylPhenyl]

To clarify, in my opinion, drugs will, long-term, catalyze my stability. They allow the implementation of habits which will ultimately lead to my greater health. I never said they were an answer to life, merely an important facet, for me.

You don't understand. I, and maybe robot, have been through things that would kill most people. It certainly took a toll on the brain. We can't just live like 'nor mail' people. Would you begrudge our experiences which we had no control over by labeling us 'dirty' or 'junkies'?

 

[Ziiirp]

I never called you junkies or dirty. Maybe we got lost in translation already ages ago. For me, clean means "free of external modulation". The opposite of clean in the drug context for me is not "dirty" but "under the influence of directly neurotransmitter modulating substances".

Okay I understand you had a rough past, I won't get into detail about my one but I am certain the injuries I got in an accident with chronic consequences since years now aren't something that everybody would wish for themselves. The discussion was about the term "clean" and not about the justification of drug usage, I thought. I am not judging you for taking drugs. Let's write again in a year or two and see, if you still feel so clean then.

 

[Mysterie]

im just offering a different perspective, dont take it as a personal attack

 

[AlphaMethylPhenyl]

Well then what does 'clean' denote?

Let's do it then. I've read the studies, done the research, asked the experts, etc.

Honestly, throw real scientific articles proving your points.

 

[lascava]

Let me tell you why people want to get off benzos after YEARS of using them.

You will develop tolerance to them very soon and will need to increase your dose.How will you know it? You will start having the awfull withdrawal symptoms between your doses.Fear,anxiety,shaking,dizziness,panic attacks and many many others.
You will get dependent very soon,so make sure you dont forget your pills if you go on a trip,coz you wont like it.After few years you will need a very high dose to achieve the same effect and you will notice that your memory is not as good as before and that you dont feel like yourself anymore,having constant brainfog,personality changes etc.Then you will think about getting off the drug,but its not so easy,most people that were dependent/addicted to benzos describe the process of getting off them as the most awfull experience in their life.Many unable to do it at all....

So yes sure it seems like a miracle in the very begining,however the end is going to be hell.
I know it coz i am OFF benzos finally and i am so happy about it.My sister tho is on clonazepam for many years and she now wishes she never started taking them coz they ruined her life.
I hope this will help someone.
I wish someone had told me this when i just started taking these and felt great,then i wouldnt have gone through HELL...

 

[brutus]

^ Tolerance doesn't develop to the antioxylitc effect of benzos. Do you mean dependence?

I've been on benzos for 7 years and I have never needed to increase my dose nor felt anything that you have listed.

Benzos have changed my life for the better since I suffered from debilitating anxiety.

 

[Ziiirp]

Well then what does 'clean' denote?

Let's do it then. I've read the studies, done the research, asked the experts, etc.

Honestly, throw real scientific articles proving your points.

I would be suprised if pharmacologists used the term "clean" in their papers. They rather use "withdrawn" or "substituted". If you could point me to one nonetheless, I would be thankful.

It does not need microscience to comprehend that "clean" should equal "free of drugs (to a certain extent)" OR "free of the influence of a certain drug". Then the term "clean" would not be an universal state but applicable only in conjunction with a certain substance. Let's express it pseudo-mathematically (cannot use symbols here), so that it applies universally :

An individual is "clean" <--> For all x€substance applies : The individual has the property <clean from x>

€ means "of type" here, the euro - symbol looks like the element - symbol (math. symbol) somewhat

You could also define an exclusion set to loosen the requirement in order to be "clean". Let's put the least harmful psychoactive substances into this set E :

E = {Caffeine, Theanine, Theobromine}

And now the definition would be :

An individual is "clean" <--> For all x€(substance that is not in E) applies : The individual has the property <clean from x>

You could add many more substances to the set E but I would not put in hard drugs like Benzos, where a slight overdose or a dumb combination (i.e. alcohol) and the withdrawal could kill you, into that set, honestly. That was my whole point.

 

[RobotRipping]

@Brutus: glad someone else finally said that. There are studies proving this fact! My Dr. said the same thing to me, 'I'd prescribe you more diazepam but then the doses will just get higher and higher and you'll never be able to quit.' No point arguing with him anymore so i just switched to etizolam.

I don't know why there is such hostility in here, i did read the thread, didn't just come on here to justify my own drug use, i don't have to justify it.

there is a common misconception that benzos are the most dangerous evil drugs ever, some people need them to function, some may not. Some people may use them to function better, some may use them for their self destruction. The same goes for stimulants or opiates or what have you.

@Ziiirp: By saying that i function at a high level on a certain combo of drugs i am by no means justifying my use of those drugs. I'm just stating my experience. I can bet there are many others out there like myself that function extremely well on stimulants and a gabaergic. There are others who function at high levels on opiates. This doesn't mean you should go start taking all these drugs to function well but for some of us, it's incredibly helpful. I use these drugs because i like the way they make me feel, i like the concentration, the euphoria, the calmness, serenity and ability to handle things i would not regularly be able to. Is it a lifetime thing? hopefully not as the negatives will probably out weigh the positives one day, but maybe not.

I have no need to silence my conscience, i don't feel bad about what i do and don't think anyone else should either. For those young readers out there: do not chose this path! if you can function fine without drugs then obviously that is the better choice by all means. There are a few exceptions to this rule but do not consider yourself one until you have exhausted every other option.

sorry to interject, just wanted to clear this up.

^btw nice setup for a logical argument; however what's the point of determining whether someone is clean or not? does it really matter?

 

[AlphaMethylPhenyl]

Not in terms of hard science, but socio-anthro-culturally. I have no idea why you suddenly decided to predicate that question on numbers and variables.

 

[brutus]

Ziirp, you were asked to provide studies, not some kind of mathematical equation that you created yourself. Please keep this civil or I will close it or UA the posts.

I have no need to silence my conscience, i don't feel bad about what i do and don't think anyone else should either. For those young readers out there: do not chose this path! if you can function fine without drugs then obviously that is the better choice by all means. There are a few exceptions to this rule but do not consider yourself one until you have exhausted every other option.

I cannot stress this enough. Thanks man for posting things like this. We always need to remember the thousands of people who read OD.

 

[Ziiirp]

@Brutus: glad someone else finally said that. There are studies proving this fact! My Dr. said the same thing to me, 'I'd prescribe you more diazepam but then the doses will just get higher and higher and you'll never be able to quit.' No point arguing with him anymore so i just switched to etizolam.

I don't know why there is such hostility in here, i did read the thread, didn't just come on here to justify my own drug use, i don't have to justify it.

there is a common misconception that benzos are the most dangerous evil drugs ever, some people need them to function, some may not. Some people may use them to function better, some may use them for their self destruction. The same goes for stimulants or opiates or what have you.

@Ziiirp: By saying that i function at a high level on a certain combo of drugs i am by no means justifying my use of those drugs. I'm just stating my experience. I can bet there are many others out there like myself that function extremely well on stimulants and a gabaergic. There are others who function at high levels on opiates. This doesn't mean you should go start taking all these drugs to function well but for some of us, it's incredibly helpful. I use these drugs because i like the way they make me feel, i like the concentration, the euphoria, the calmness, serenity and ability to handle things i would not regularly be able to. Is it a lifetime thing? hopefully not as the negatives will probably out weigh the positives one day, but maybe not.

I have no need to silence my conscience, i don't feel bad about what i do and don't think anyone else should either. For those young readers out there: do not chose this path! if you can function fine without drugs then obviously that is the better choice by all means. There are a few exceptions to this rule but do not consider yourself one until you have exhausted every other option.

sorry to interject, just wanted to clear this up.

^btw nice setup for a logical argument; however what's the point of determining whether someone is clean or not? does it really matter?

It is about ideology I think. Ideally nobody should have to take hard drugs daily to feel content and satisfied. It has something to do with freedom, even if that sounds paradoxical after all that I wrote So staying relatively clean for me is a legitimate aim in life. There is no point other than that really. In the end this is a drug related forum and I should not expect, that everyone in here is getting close to be straight edge or willing to be, but sometimes it appears to me that both distopias from "1984" and "Brave New World" combined are already ongoing for years and get worse by the day, when I read through this and other boards. And then I play the anti pole in discussions, someone has to.

If you got by for years with that lifestyle I believe you, when you say, you can handle it well. I wish, that you can go on with the same results for much longer and would be the last one, that wishes you negative experience. Just take care and practice moderation.

@Brutus,

You can close this if this thread is about me suddenly. Abuse of power is a common act in internet boards.

@Ho-Chi-Minh

Sorry to play the Nazi again, but I do not consider socio-anthro-culturally subjects having anything to do with science at all.

 

[brutus]

Don't be egotistical because this isn't about you. This is the OP's thread and he doesn't deserve for it to be derailed by anyone over a petty argument. If you have a problem with my actions then feel free to PM me about it.

 

[Ziiirp]

Thanks for the info. I thought that was already clear with my last post. Feel free to censor the posts, you don't like.