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Why are women attracted to men who are assholes?

Originally posted by Xenomaniac:
Honestly I could never ever be an asshole. I just don't have the heart to do it.
Same here. I'm not down with fucking with peoples' heads or treating them like shit. I think my problem is that I am too sincere.
I've always been the quiet shy guy and it looks like I'm going to stay that way too.
If I stay this way, I will die from unfulfilled libido. I realize that I've got to take action in order to change my situation but its so fucking hard because I am so insecure around girls to whom I am attracted.
I do open my heart out to women and I do listen to them unlike some assholes who don't.
My problem is that I open my heart too much and scare them away. I'm too sincere and too intense in my sincerity. I definitely listen to them, but unfortunately I am usually the guy who the girl bitches to about what an asshole her boyfriend/love interest/crush is. Every single girl to whom I've been deeply attracted (physical attraction to these girls always occurred on first sight, but psychological attraction took at least a little time to develop) was someone I became close with through talking over the issues in our lives. They get so used to crying on my shoulder that it weirds them out when I reveal the huge emotional insecurity that I normally try so carefully to hide. In dropping my veneer of individualistic, iconoclastic confidence and reaching out explicitly for true understanding and love (in a very generalized sense that subsumes both friendship and romance), I desperately seek some signal of empathy on their part. After all, I want to know that they care. This is the stage of the relationship where the trust is eroded, because I develop an unhealthy infatuation. This is obviously too much for them, they run away, and I've lost another close friend, another kindred spirit whose presence I miss greatly. Because I am not only losing a romantic opportunity, but also (usually) an extremely valuable friendship, its like a double whammy that further depresses my confidence. If I only had more confidence, I wouldn't have to become friends with a girl before I felt comfortable steering the relationship in a romantic direction. If only I had more confidence, I could look any girl to whom I am attracted in the eye every time we talk. But I am afraid to look directly at their beauty and intelligence for fear of being overwhelmed, for fear of the intimacy of looking through the eyes into the soul (I generally have a problem making eye contact with people to whom I am speaking). I look into their eyes and see myself reflected, but not as they see me. Rather, I see myself with all my flaws, and I want them to make that fucking reflection go away! It's a trap! They can't make it go away because that is not the person that they see! The more I appeal for their emotional support, the more the reflection becomes reality in their eyes and the more they are repulsed by the sycophant I have become. I am making a self-fulfilling prophecy of my own rejection! Why all this self-loathing, this self-defeat? I don't have to be perfect, especially in comparison to all the assholes out there. But I want to be perfectly honest, because it fits my foolish Romantic conception of Love (in the general sense of a deep emotional bond between two people). Now that I look at it, I guess I am being the other type of asshole, the creep hidden in the nice, shy guy, the parasite who expects the right girl to magically make right all of his social and sexual shortcomings. This is even worse than the asshole who treats girls like shit, because in that case the woman is often a slave to her own infatuation, and when she snaps out of it she dumps the guy. However, in the scenario that I keep falling into, I try to make the woman a slave to my infatuation, and she rightly rejects the inconsiderate bullshit I am pulling on her. Paradoxically, as I get closer to a romantic interest, I increasingly put her on a pedestal precisely because of my greater appreciation of her personality. However, a woman on a pedestal is not flesh to be touched, it is a statue, eternal beauty, to be worshipped. Thus, the idealized image does not really represent the woman that it claims to. By displacing my desire onto this false image, I can justify my leechlike behavior toward the real woman. Then she is left wondering how I transformed from a trusted friend and potential love interest into a sketchy creep. I don't want to get infatuated with women, especially my friends, but it just happens. I need a woman's love so badly, but I lose sight of my destination in the tumult of conflicting passions and self-doubt that arises as I near it. When its within my grasp, when the girl is sufficiently comfortable both physically and mentally, I begin to doubt that shit is really going so well and pass up chances to initiate romance. This period of hesitation is where the infatuation arises. Then, having finally accepted the fact that I am an object of her desire, I thus conclude that she must be a goddess to forgive and moreover desire my imperfection. This is where I shift from playing it cool and independent to coming on WAAAAAY too strong because I have become emotionally dependent on the image I have constructed. I can not be both the subject and the object of HER desire.
I think an asshole is a person who tries to create an unhealthy emotional dependence in a romantic relationship. I am the ultimate asshole: I cling to the real woman like sticky shit because I have become obsessed with her unblemished statue.
WOW. That was cathartic.
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^^^
Hey thanks for saving me the time to reply.
I couldnt have described parts of me better.
[ 11 June 2002: Message edited by: masheadatronic ]
 
Nice guys are bent, if I want a girl I normally tease her and insult her a bit, treat her mean, but then ask her sincerely if she wants to date. Its sort of like, you display this rough and mean exterior but you have a kind and gentle heart. I wouldnt say I am a complete asshole, but I mean you got to be a little mean, otherwise the girl will think your a pushover and just dump you. Its funny how you are much more attracted to someone who doesnt want you. I certainly got that so badly after splitting up with an old ex. The more she avoided me, the more I wanted her. It was horrible, I ended up making a fool out of myself. So whats the moral of this story, nice guys dont finish last, but at the same time, you have to find the right balance. Girls dont like guys who are complete cocks, but at the same time, they dont like little pussy boys either who read them poetry and have no masculine qualities whatsoever. PLURED!
 
Yes, women will continue to go with assholes, because deep down inside, they like getting fucked over. They like feeling *something*, they like the emotional roller coaster.
It's all about the emotional roller coaster -- for both genders, as you said.
The thing is, once people start getting older, they get bored of the amusement park and crave a little more stability...
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/me kisses 5Ht-2 :)
Now that I look at it, I guess I am being the other type of asshole, the creep hidden in the nice, shy guy, the parasite who expects the right girl to magically make right all of his social and sexual shortcomings. We all do this. It's not creepy, it's not weird; it's a natural human response, and more so when we are inexperienced. And the same goes for the projection/idolization thing...we all do it.
On the topic of idolization, briefly, I will say this: a little bit is necessary for passion. How can you feel passionate about someone whom you do not have even an ounce of admiration for? If you are so practical that you see the person's flaws completely and can't even displace them from your mind temporarily, then how can you really respect your lover?
Most of the major relationship issues I have experienced have resulted from either TOO MUCH or TOO LITTLE idolization (which I also equate to infatuation). If you have too much, well, then you are projecting, your are in love with someone who does not exist, and only disappointment and disaster can ensue. If you have too little idolization, you are constantly criticizing the person in your mind, you feel perpetually dis- and unsatisfied, and there is no way that you can be swept up in passionate love for them.
Somewhere there is a balance. You are aware of your lover's faults, and yet you don't obsess over them unecessarily. You respect your lover for his/her virtues, and have the wisdom to focus on those instead, and work on drawing those aspects of your lover out. And if you and your lover bring out the best in each other, then respect, admiration, and goodwill will abound -- as will passion and love.
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Bollox! What a bunch of arse. You can all go and fuck yourselves as far as I am concerned.
I'm just practising by the way.
 
Thank you LL for letting us repeatedly jack this thread. :)
5HT-2, i completely understand where you are coming from. All this talk of idealization and idolizing reminds me of myself in a less cynical period a couple years back where i used to put women on a goddess pedestal as well.
I truly believed in acknowledging the higher nature of people, but it seemed to act as a self-fulfilling prophecy in that people could never match my expectations, or that i would put too much pressure on them to be these mystical creatures that were far removed from their normal self-conceptions. But this was a period of us taking a lot of E and psychedelics, so what can you say.
As for seeing your self-reflection in another person's eyes, i think that is a major barrier to intimacy. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy if you assume that everyone you interact with believes you are a monster. Drop it like a bad habit if possible.
And love is not always about perfect honesty. Love is usually an act, the honesty comes later in the relationship. Besides, hopefully the honesty is that you're beyond a stage of self-doubt and have come to accept yourself. Hopefully the eyes will eventually reflect that, but don't wait forever.
And on that tip, it would help to perceive other people in an honest way, not as lowly demons, but as imperfect yet beautiful humans who neither have the power to damn you or to save you.
 
Originally posted by liquidocean:

5HT-2, i completely understand where you are coming from. All this talk of idealization and idolizing reminds me of myself in a less cynical period a couple years back where i used to put women on a goddess pedestal as well.
I truly believed in acknowledging the higher nature of people, but it seemed to act as a self-fulfilling prophecy in that people could never match my expectations, or that i would put too much pressure on them to be these mystical creatures that were far removed from their normal self-conceptions. But this was a period of us taking a lot of E and psychedelics, so what can you say.
Definitely a correlation here. If I ease up on the psychedlics for a while, you think I'll come back down to earth a little?
As for seeing your self-reflection in another person's eyes, i think that is a major barrier to intimacy. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy if you assume that everyone you interact with believes you are a monster. Drop it like a bad habit if possible.[/QB]
I'm trying, but its so hard. Recently, as I've become more familiar with the myriad clinical symptoms, I've come to suspect that I have pretty bad depression. Maybe if I go on antidepressants (but it would SUCK ASS if they sapped my sex drive) I'll become more confident?
And love is not always about perfect honesty. Love is usually an act, the honesty comes later in the relationship.
An act? Courtship is an act. Love, passion, desire, etc. are the motivations behind the act.
Besides, hopefully the honesty is that you're beyond a stage of self-doubt and have come to accept yourself.
If anything, my psychoanalysis has increased my self doubt, because it has uncovered such a strong repeating pattern in relationships with girls to whom I am deeply attracted.
Hopefully the eyes will eventually reflect that, but don't wait forever.
What do you mean, don't wait forever?
And on that tip, it would help to perceive other people in an honest way, not as lowly demons, but as imperfect yet beautiful humans who neither have the power to damn you or to save you.
The only person that I see as a lowly demon is myself. Others I appreciate despite their imperfections.
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Well guys thanks for the response. So far its been an unanimous hey you should be an ass cuz girls for some unreal crazy reason dig it. I say that I for one will remain the nice guy. That kind of life style is for me. If I should finish last or whatever so be it. I love who I am now and I won't change it for some silly notion of changing my values and attitudes just to hop in bed with someone let alone have a meaningful relationship. Life is just too short to worry about that.
BTW for those girls who cry on nice guys shoulders and say why can't I be with a guy just like a nice guy just because some guy treated you like dirt I say you get what you deserve.
I just wanted to see how you guys feel about that nice guy business. Suckers!!! :P Just kidding. Thanks for the responses!
 
I think the fact is that the girls see nice guys as friends and the aggressive asshole type who can be nice and who she can change and sculpt is the person she wants to be with.
 
- I'd say it's the e. When you take it a lot, it's hard not to see the people your roll around as perfect angels, not to say that their demons or hypocrites, it's just that they're normal humans, and if you only see them in the ecstasy context, it's hard to have an image of them that does them justice. Just a general rule of thumb. I don't think psychedelics make it nearly as difficult to understand a person.
- Before going on anti-depressants i'd try changing up your routine a little. A slight change can do a lot of difference. And it's often underestimated how much a little mental discipline can go in terms of defeating negativity. It's good to have an internal sensei that kung fu's disruptive thoughts. Vocalize the dialogue going on in your head, make a stance on it, and see if you can bend. Learn to react when the voice starts getting heavy, and turn it around. Fortunately positivity is also a self-fulfilling prophecy.
- I think the majority of love is an act. A play to receive affection. A game. A battle. A net you cast out on the water to receive the fish of love. Courtship is hooking and reeling the fish, getting affection is gutting and scaling it. Some love is sincere, but it takes depth, time, and a good chemistry, and a long time out at sea.
- Don't passively wait forever for your eyes to reflect you feeling confident in yourself. Start by projecting it, and affection will follow. Affection will create confidence, and then it will be found naturally in your eyes.
- We all have our skeletons and our darkness. Either be fair to yourself and objectively see the good as much as the bad, or see other people objectively for what they are versus how you see them, or revel in your demonic self. Regardless, you should keep it symmetrical.
hope this made sense, i know how you feel and i have pangs of it myself.
 
Originally posted by liquidocean:
- I'd say it's the e. When you take it a lot, it's hard not to see the people your roll around as perfect angels, not to say that their demons or hypocrites, it's just that they're normal humans, and if you only see them in the ecstasy context, it's hard to have an image of them that does them justice. Just a general rule of thumb. I don't think psychedelics make it nearly as difficult to understand a person.
I only do MDMA once a month, its the psychedelics that I do almost every weekend. Besides, I've never rolled around a girl to whom I've been deeply attracted. It's not that I don't understand them, it's that I go into denial about certain parts of our mutual understanding as the infatuation builds.
- Before going on anti-depressants i'd try changing up your routine a little. A slight change can do a lot of difference. And it's often underestimated how much a little mental discipline can go in terms of defeating negativity. It's good to have an internal sensei that kung fu's disruptive thoughts. Vocalize the dialogue going on in your head, make a stance on it, and see if you can bend. Learn to react when the voice starts getting heavy, and turn it around. Fortunately positivity is also a self-fulfilling prophecy.
I'm taking the summer off from major commitments, hopefully that will work out. I think the intensely academic environment combined with a shitty social scene at the university I attend has a lot to do with that negativity.
- I think the majority of love is an act. A play to receive affection. A game. A battle. A net you cast out on the water to receive the fish of love. Courtship is hooking and reeling the fish, getting affection is gutting and scaling it. Some love is sincere, but it takes depth, time, and a good chemistry, and a long time out at sea.
I haven't been fishing in way too long.
- Don't passively wait forever for your eyes to reflect you feeling confident in yourself. Start by projecting it, and affection will follow. Affection will create confidence, and then it will be found naturally in your eyes.
How can I project confidence if I don't have it?
- see other people objectively for what they are versus how you see them
It's not that I can't see them for what they are, its that I deny that.
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I actually have a question for the nice guys... which girls are you trying to go after? The hot, confident, bitches (which, strangely enough, all the guys want and seem to correspond to your definition of "asshole".... or are you going after all girls? I have a sneaking suspicion that if you paid attention to the girls who are just like yourself, shy, maybe a little less traditionally hot... in other words, were actually a nice guy who believed what you were saying about personality and kindness should matter... maybe your luck might change?
 
Alright girls lets face it, most guys are assholes and we ARE attracted to them. I think it's because they seem to have this "power" about them i guess you could say. They seem to think theyre the shit no matter what and its not true. But, all guys are assholes and you just have to find the right one. When youre first attracted to a guy that you KNOW is an asshole that will most likely screw you over, GET OVER HIM just get on with your life. I made that mistake last year with my last boyfriend. I stayed w/ him b/c I thought I couldnt do any better. I didnt listen to my friends when they told me he was an ass and he would use me. It turned out he was pimpin other girls the WHOLE summer and had sex w/ some of them. I was a wreck there for a little while but then I found the guy Im with now. Hes not an asshole and when you find that person YOULL KNOW. Girls can be bitches and guys can be assholes but thats mother nature. but when it comes to an ALL the time thing is when you have a problem. If youre too late into the relationship then talk to the person and dont let them walk all over you, i seem to have that problem with people. Just remember, that right person is out there for you and when you find him you'll be the happiest woman ever and youll laugh when you think back to all those assholes you were attracted to and you didnt even know why and THATS when youll discover WHY girls are attracted to assholes. I hope this isnt complicated! remember girls You are too good to be treated like shit so stand up for yourself and speak your mind when it comes to relationships!
 
Okay...basically, if it were to be said in a few words...everyone has faults. Guys are said to be assholes by the things that they say and do. Girls are said to be bitches by the same way. Every person is said to have something about them that classifies them having a fault at times in their life. No matter what, whether you think so or not, every person you know or will ever see is going to say or do something that makes them seem like an asshole or a bitch to someone else. Lets face it, no one is perfect. Relationships are very hard to get through alive and being in one is like riding an emotional rollercoaster...you never know what kind of bump or turn your relationship is going to take. The hardest thing about life, is living it. Life IS VERY rough...in EVERY way. No one goes through their life without some kind of obstacle. Girls that fall for guys that are assholes basically are just taking a chance that they have no idea where it is going to take them <hence the rollercoaster> Lets face this: Guys who come off as being assholes AT TIMES may only be that way at times....Guys that come off as being an asshole ALL THE TIME really ARE assholes. Girls, i mean COME ON if you cant look at a relationship and see that the guy is an ass then how blind ARE you?? if all the signs are there...like your friends <the ones you can DEFINATELY trust> are telling you things and you just dont wanna believe them then youre blind to the fact that you think you may have to stay with that person no matter if they are an ass or not. IF youre so blinded by the way that you feel about a person that you cant take your relationship and step back and really LOOK into it, and that means all the details that come with it, and find out that SOMETHING IS WRONG...then i dont know what else to tell you except that if you cant listen to others telling you it, and you cant tell yourself it, then youre not going anywhere. You have to always keep your guard up even if you think you KNOW that nothing bad will happen with that person...Its LIFE...you never know whats gonna happen to you...
 
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