What is wrong with the MDMA available today?

[vash445]

From Drugs Data today:

Ok, so I could summarize something like this (please add your comments):

A sub-par, "meh" sample was submitted for testing. The testers ran NMR 1H and 13C along with MALDI.

The MALDI came up 193.25 g/mol the mol weight of MDMA.

This batch of MDMA is a mixture of something that has practically the same NMR spectra as MDMA (both 1H and 13C) which means it has to contain the same carbon backbone and the same structural features, it cannot be an isomer because there are no isomers of MDMA which have the same mass and the same NMR spectrum.

1H NMR showed the issue on peak 9. Also, there is a mini peak at 207. Perhaps an an aldehyde or ketone. Overall, the sample has carbonyl impurities. The structure seems very close to what MDMA should look like in NMR but not quite.

Mini peak on 207. Is on the 13c I believe. But the rest looks/seems correct to me. If no response in 1-3 days. I'll send the summary to my NMR guy and see if it's fairly accurate.

 

[Hilopsilo]

Ok, so I could summarize something like this (please add your comments):

A sub-par, "meh" sample was submitted for testing. The testers ran NMR 1H and 13C along with MALDI.

The MALDI came up 193.25 g/mol the mol weight of MDMA.

This batch of MDMA is a mixture of something that has practically the same NMR spectra as MDMA (both 1H and 13C) which means it has to contain the same carbon backbone and the same structural features, it cannot be an isomer because there are no isomers of MDMA which have the same mass and the same NMR spectrum.

1H NMR showed the issue on peak 9. Also, there is a mini peak at 207. Perhaps an an aldehyde or ketone. Overall, the sample has carbonyl impurities. The structure seems very close to what MDMA should look like in NMR but not quite.

I agree wait for either of the people who really know what most of this means, but either way I'd say just for the sake of being scientifically honest we need to change wording to be "We have a hypothesis that..." rather than "is" or "has to". We don't know this for sure, so we shouldnt phrase it as if we do, I think in general professionals will be more likely to lend their ear and take it seriously if we're not making big claims that we haven't proven yet

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think what vecktor wrote was that isomers do not have the same NMR spectrum, even if they have the same mass. We know for sure there are isomers of MDMA that have the same mass, that they exist, but vecktor didn't seem to see any such isomers like that in the first NMR results.

 

[indigoaura]

Received my results from International Energy Control today for the product I plan to consume on NYE. I am hoping that they have not fully updated my results yet, because I paid for a full PDF report that was supposed to show which tests were run and provide full graphs for each test. All I see right now is "MDMA 80%." That is it. It does not say MDMA HCI or provide any additional information. I paid a whopping $120 Euros for this test, which was supposed to include "a complete PDF report including the raw graphs and data from the techniques used." So far, disappointed.

What do you make of the result? No adulterants noted. I was definitely hoping for more than 80% though, especially since this product is supposedly washed and re-crystallized.

 

[vecktor]

I agree wait for either of the people who really know what most of this means, but either way I'd say just for the sake of being scientifically honest we need to change wording to be "We have a hypothesis that..." rather than "is" or "has to". We don't know this for sure, so we shouldnt phrase it as if we do, I think in general professionals will be more likely to lend their ear and take it seriously if we're not making big claims that we haven't proven yet

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think what vecktor wrote was that isomers do not have the same NMR spectrum, even if they have the same mass. We know for sure there are isomers of MDMA that have the same mass, that they exist, but vecktor didn't seem to see any such isomers like that in the first NMR results.

Indeed you are right, structural isomers will not have the same NMR spectrum. The sample from the NMR data appears to be MDMA and but there is certainly some weirdness so it could be contaminated, but this contamination, could possibly be from the NMR solvent DMSO. hopefully Vash can get to get his NMR guy to confirm the solvent was pure. so we know the results are real, because if someone accidentally contaminated the NMR DMSO with DMF, formamide or similar amide solvent then it would show up. unless contamination in the solvent is ruled out no absolute conclusions can really be made as to where these peaks came from.

what we can do is use the NMR data to rule out some things:
this sample is not an isomer of MDMA and it is not contaminated with significant amounts of an isomer of MDMA.

Is it pure?
There is certainly some weirdness in the 1H spectra, there are several broad peaks typical of amines (and to a lesser extent alcohols) this may be amine vs protonated amine, but equally it could be the alcohol MDP2Pol is hiding in there there are too many broad peaks IMHO. Running NMR in D2O or CD3OD will make the amine peaks disappear and simplify things.

NMR alone is not perfect, it needs to be cross referenced with other analytical techniques. Like a jigsaw puzzle, without all the pieces the picture is incomplete but the outline of the picture can be seen without all the pieces.

There are things NMR will struggle to see, for example the dimer however will have a spectrum that is practically identical on 1H and 13C NMR, after all it is practically the same structurally, just MDMAs joined together, so 1H and 13C NMR would be fooled, the one hydrogen difference at the amine would probably not be seen because the hydrogen on MDMA is an exchangeable hydrogen, it swaps with deuterium in the solvent unless both the sample and solvent is very dry and the solvent is aprotic.

Mass spec though and in particular GC-MS will have no difficulty seeing the dimer provided it is being looked for. The difference in mass and the large difference in boiling point allows the GC to separate them with ease, but the analysis run time has to be hot enough and long enough for the heavy dimer to work its way through the GC and the mass spec needs to be scanning up to higher masses.

I understand that there may be other meh samples that have been analyzed using NMR, this data would be useful. Ideally though a sample of meh and a sample of magic subjected to NMR in the same solvent would show any differences.

for what its worth I would not put much value on a MALDI mass spectrum giving an accurate mass spectrum for something as small as MDMA, it is way to small for MALDI and the technique also generates a lot of matrix effects at low masses. That it gave any information at all is great but it wouldn't necessarily see anything else.

so as it stands the hypothesis that meh mdma is due to a structural isomer in this sample is dead. The hypothesis that it is contaminated with something perhaps dimer or MDP2Pol is not dead yet. Overall the picture looks a lot like it is weird mostly MDMA. I don't think carbonyl or similar impurities can be suggested at this point because they may be from the NMR solvent.
The 2D NMR spectra show something unusual, quite what is unclear at this point.
More data needed. I will try and monitor this thread.

 

[vecktor]

Received my results from International Energy Control today for the product I plan to consume on NYE. I am hoping that they have not fully updated my results yet, because I paid for a full PDF report that was supposed to show which tests were run and provide full graphs for each test. All I see right now is "MDMA 80%." That is it. It does not say MDMA HCI or provide any additional information. I paid a whopping $120 Euros for this test, which was supposed to include "a complete PDF report including the raw graphs and data from the techniques used." So far, disappointed.

What do you make of the result? No adulterants noted. I was definitely hoping for more than 80% though, especially since this product is supposedly washed and re-crystallized.

Ask them for the TIC, Total Ion Count chart for the GCMS run or better the data file (*.d from Agilent machines *.raw from Thermo machines for example) which will have the TIC and all the spectral data for the entire run. I am pretty sure energy control are running Agilent systems. This raw data can be read and interpreted by many free software tools and compounds that they are not looking for, that are not in their library can be dug out of the data.
for small compounds like this GC-MS is the best analytical method by far.

80% might be calculated on the basis of freebase MDMA so 80% would be about 90% pure as the hydrochloride, I have no idea what method energy control use, I have heard they use UV absorption without chromatography which is only slightly better than a wild guess.

 

[Negi]

80% might be calculated on the basis of freebase MDMA so 80% would be about 90% pure as the hydrochloride, I have no idea what method energy control use

Energy Control results are based on the amount of MDMA salt.

1) Our results directly provide the result of the salt of the substance, as
we’re using a salt as a reference standard. This means that the purity of a
sample with only MDMA HCl could be 100%.
2) Therefore, a tablet with 100mg of MDMA. HCl would be reported as 100mg
of MDMA.

Technical Oddity: Dutch Testing Service (DIMS) Defines Pure MDMA Crystal as 84% Pure – Erowid Crew Blog

 

[indigoaura]

Thanks @Negi! So, if IEC is measuring based on the salt, and maximum purity is 100%, then what is the other 20% in my sample if no adulterants were found?

 

[vecktor]

Thanks @Negi! So, if IEC is measuring based on the salt, and maximum purity is 100%, then what is the other 20% in my sample if no adulterants were found?

thanks for the info Negi.

The answer, but not the one you want to hear, is the other 20% is unknown. It could be something invisible to their analysis like water or it just as likely they cannot be bothered or are simply not capable of identifying the other components.

 

[indigoaura]

IEC has not replied to my questions from yesterday about where my PDF report is and what else they can tell me about the sample. Really hoping they don't blow me off, because if I was just going to get a simple "80% MDMA" result, I would not have paid extra for a PDF report.

 

[F.U.B.A.R.]

Conspiracy theory alert!

I reckon IEC are just a bunch of Spanish drugsters getting wasted on all the samples sent to them and then returning generic 'results' for each substance. The fees they charge are no doubt being used to fund the production of MehDMA...

 

[ThreePointCircle]

Just thought I'd update on my TLC experiments. Had some help via PMs, and this is what I've got so far. Not too successful but there you go...

Using system 1 (ethyl acetate/methanol/water/ammonia ) and system 2 (acetone/ammonia ) from this paper, with a freebase sample:



Also, tried Marquis after system 1, with freebase and salt dissolved in water:



I tried a pill sample (left) and crystal sample (right) dissolved in IPA/ammonia instead of water, in system 1. With the crystal sample I also tried less of a sample (by partially draining the capillary before application):



I tested a null sample, and the front at the top also appeared so can be ignored. In general I seem to be struggling to shift the mdma type stuff up the plate. And I can't seem to resolve that higher streak into dots.

 

[indigoaura]

...And, still not reply from IEC. I have sent two emails now, asking them where my PDF report is at among other questions. Ridiculous.

 

[G_Chem]

Straight BS Indigo.. Sorry your dealing with that but I guess it only further proves the inadequacy of many of these supposed “professional” labs.

Especially when they promised such for an increased price...

-GC

 

[AutoTripper]

...And, still not reply from IEC. I have sent two emails now, asking them where my PDF report is at among other questions. Ridiculous.

Just keep on. Be consistently polite, but insistent. At the very least they owe you an explanation of some sort. Keep at them, give it a little time in case they are just delayed or or not quite in the position to come back to you at the 2nd so you don't annoy them unnecessarily.

 

[G_Chem]

Good level headed advice AutoTripper, shit happens.. Best to stay as understanding as possible, and if they don’t get back in 6mos we burn the MF’s down to the ground!!!

Goddamn I had one hell of an experience two weeks ago, it was a combo experience with other empathogens and psychedelics (a combo which I’ve worked on and tweaked for years culminating in this experience) but soon as it hit I came to realize a truth about myself that I’ve been running from for years. I could see clearer than I have in a long time...

The following days I pursued what I knew needed to be done, and while a hard pill to swalllow I’ve found out that the medical issues I’ve been hiding from were exactly my worst fears all along.

I was diagnosed with cancer of which kind I’d rather not say. While there is of course uncertainty about the future, I’m blessed to have these medicines that can allow me moments of clarity to make the choices I need to for my own betterment. I’m amazing at denial and lying to myself, I probably would have continued my lie until this cancer ate me alive. My experiences have been trying to tell me this for awhile but it took a peak level trip to really bust the doors down on this issue.

I might be here a lot more or a lot less depending but I wish you guys the best in your quest truly. After my latest experience, and just facilitating more lately for many others, this is a matter of necessity to get this medicine back to the people. Everyone should have access to the highest quality MDMA to bring about personal growth that we all need.

Just Incase anyone’s curious, here’s the combo which seems to very reliably produce peak experiences from what I’ve seen in myself and others... The dosages have been experimented and adjusted to what I feel are the perfect amounts. The substances are taken in this particular order for a number of reasons as well. (Of course as always, purity is of utmost importance all substances were highly pure.)

T 0:00

- 15mg 5-MAPB
- 1mg d-meth
- ~150mg Mescaline acetate
- 1/2 hit of strong WoW LSD

T 1:00

- 95mg MDMA
- 30mg MDA
- 1 hit of strong WoW LSD

T 2:00

- 40mg MDMA

T ??

- 200mg Phenibut
- small bump of Ketamine before bed
- few hits of DMT before bed

I started writing up a post on my explanation for each substance, their dosages, timings, etc... But I got distracted. If anyone’s curious I can come back to explain but I can guarantee this.. If you go through the effort to procure all these substances you will be forever thanking me once you finally give this a try.

I’ve done this combo everything except the MDA a few times before but the MDA as I expected brought it all together for a deep needed session.

Love you all, hopefully I’ll be back relatively soon And if not...Know I truly LIVED life.

-GC

 

[F.U.B.A.R.]

All the best G_Chem, sorry to hear that.

But that's one hell of a fuckin combo man..!

 

[babooon87]

Good level headed advice AutoTripper, shit happens.. Best to stay as understanding as possible, and if they don’t get back in 6mos we burn the MF’s down to the ground!!!

Goddamn I had one hell of an experience two weeks ago, it was a combo experience with other empathogens and psychedelics (a combo which I’ve worked on and tweaked for years culminating in this experience) but soon as it hit I came to realize a truth about myself that I’ve been running from for years. I could see clearer than I have in a long time...

The following days I pursued what I knew needed to be done, and while a hard pill to swalllow I’ve found out that the medical issues I’ve been hiding from were exactly my worst fears all along.

I was diagnosed with cancer of which kind I’d rather not say. While there is of course uncertainty about the future, I’m blessed to have these medicines that can allow me moments of clarity to make the choices I need to for my own betterment. I’m amazing at denial and lying to myself, I probably would have continued my lie until this cancer ate me alive. My experiences have been trying to tell me this for awhile but it took a peak level trip to really bust the doors down on this issue.

I might be here a lot more or a lot less depending but I wish you guys the best in your quest truly. After my latest experience, and just facilitating more lately for many others, this is a matter of necessity to get this medicine back to the people. Everyone should have access to the highest quality MDMA to bring about personal growth that we all need.

Just Incase anyone’s curious, here’s the combo which seems to very reliably produce peak experiences from what I’ve seen in myself and others... The dosages have been experimented and adjusted to what I feel are the perfect amounts. The substances are taken in this particular order for a number of reasons as well. (Of course as always, purity is of utmost importance all substances were highly pure.)

T 0:00

- 15mg 5-MAPB
- 1mg d-meth
- ~150mg Mescaline acetate
- 1/2 hit of strong WoW LSD

T 1:00

- 95mg MDMA
- 30mg MDA
- 1 hit of strong WoW LSD

T 2:00

- 40mg MDMA

T ??

- 200mg Phenibut
- small bump of Ketamine before bed
- few hits of DMT before bed

I started writing up a post on my explanation for each substance, their dosages, timings, etc... But I got distracted. If anyone’s curious I can come back to explain but I can guarantee this.. If you go through the effort to procure all these substances you will be forever thanking me once you finally give this a try.

I’ve done this combo everything except the MDA a few times before but the MDA as I expected brought it all together for a deep needed session.

Love you all, hopefully I’ll be back relatively soon And if not...Know I truly LIVED life.

-GC

Sounds like an amazing combo ! Sorry for the bad news concerning your health. Wishing you the best in overcoming that challenge.

 

[PsychedelicSummer]

Sorry to hear the bad news G_Chem. You may want to look in to medicinal mushrooms like turkey tail, chaga, reishi and others. Paul Stamets has some interesting info on the subject.

 

[G_Chem]

Thanks guys much appreciated I’ve got a feeling I’ll be alright (my gut never lies) but then again I’m not sure what “alright” entails..

Appreciate the advice PsychedelicSummer, I’ve been very curious about these and actually recently bought powdered Chaga. You mentioning it I’ll without a doubt be adding it to a smoothie later

I hunt mush too and have seen lots of turkey tail out there... But obviously not the best time for that. I’ve had to completely clean up my already somewhat anally clean diet, pretty much only eat veggies, certain fruits, healthy fats, nuts and chicken when I need meat. If I do much as eat a bag of beef jerky (high quality no preservatives or anything) the inflammation gets so bad I’m laid out in agony.

Hoping in not too long I’ll be back to causing a ruckus haha, but the way my life has been I’m accepting of whatever comes.

-GC

 

[indigoaura]

@G_Chem Don't make me cry man!

So sorry to read that you are having a showdown with cancer.

It runs in my family, and many close to me have had it (various forms). Your attitude reminds me of my brother. When he got cancer as a young man, he said, "Everyone asks why me, but I figure, why not me?"

We all love you and will be sending all the PLUR and good vibes your way.