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What is wrong with the MDMA available today?

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TripSitterNZ said:
Shit loads of killings in holland. Major gang wars go on all the time in south holland massive body count Assault rifles etc. The dutch police come across mass killing scene in drug flats alot involved in the mdma drug trade on weekly basis. The mafia intimdate polications by burning their houses down or police and threaten to kill their families and kids.
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Oh, I thought they were talking about violence and killings when people take pills.
 
TripSitterNZ said:
Shit loads of killings in holland. Major gang wars go on all the time in south holland massive body count Assault rifles etc. The dutch police come across mass killing scene in drug flats alot involved in the mdma drug trade on weekly basis. The mafia intimdate polications by burning their houses down or police and threaten to kill their families and kids.
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Something tells me checkpoint is mafia
 
Lets get back on topic you guys, at least until @vecktor come back with an extended 13c or

@indigoaura samples results come back

Structure-Activity Relationships of MDMA-Like Substances David E. Nichols and Robert Oberlender


INTRODUCTION There is virtually no one who is involved in drug abuse research, or who studies the properties of recreationally used drugs, that is not by now familiar with 3,4-methylenedioxymethamphetamine (MDMA) (figure 1). Over the past 4 years this substance, usually referred to in the popular press as “Ecstasy,” has received widespread media attention, This chapter will relate recent fmdings with respect to the potential dangers attendant on the use of MDMA and explore its pharmacological properties

 
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Structure- Activi t y Rela tionships of MDMA and Related Compounds: A New Class of Psychoactive Drugs?“ DAVID E. NICHOLS AND ROBERT OBERLENDER Department of Medicinal Chemistry and Pharmacognosy School of Pharmacy and Pharmacal Sciences Purdue University West Lafayette, Indiana 47907 INTRODUCTION The popularity and illicit use of 3,4-methylenedioxymethamphetamine (MDMA; “Ecstasy”) have been widely reported in the lay press over the past four years. As with any drug problem, scientific resources were quickly brought to bear on the study of MDMA, to examine such issues as toxicity, mechanism of action, reinforcing qualities, and dependence liability. Numerous studies have now been published dealing with all these areas. However, it seems that most of the research on MDMA has been directed toward study of its neurotoxicity, and the mechanism of this toxic effect.’ While interesting from a scientific viewpoint, and important because of the potential health risk to humans, interest in the neuronal damage resulting from high doses of MDMA has overshadowed the importance of studies on the basic psychopharmacology of behaviorally relevant doses. If one is to believe anecdotal user’s accounts, the effect of MDMA is substantially different from that produced by hallucinogenic drugs such as LSD or DOM. One can make the definition of “hallucinogenic” so broad that it includes virtually all psychoactive phenethylamine derivatives. However, minor structural variations in the ring-substituted phenethylamines may have effects on their psychopharmacology ranging from profound, to very subtle. Profound changes are easy to detect, but the failure to recognize the subtle differences may result in the loss of new drug leads. Thus, it would seem prudent to define drug classes as narrowly as possible. There seems little doubt that MDMA and similar substances, and the hallucinogenic amphetamines, alter serotonergic function in the central nervous system. However, they appear to do so in different ways. The fact that serotonin pathways are now recognized to be involved in modulation of various mood states, probably means that a variety of serotonergic and antiserotonergic drugs will ultimately be discovered that have specific effects on mental functioning. It has been known for a long time that
 
From Drugs Data today:

Thanks for being patient (or not!).

I finally got two of our senior analytical chemists to look at this. Apparently my previous email to them in early October was eaten by The Black Maw of Infinite Nothingness.

As Sasha Shulgin used to say:

"A mass spectrum by itself is insufficient to reliably differentiate and identify substances. "

The use of multiple cross-over technologies and separatory functions such chromatographic methods along with MS make it possible to narrow down the likelihood of overlapping identifications. Without a published GC or LC elution time for the given isobaric / regiosomeric chemicals,

One of our experts who works analyzing the most-difficult-to-identify chemicals for the UK's customs and other police stuff (as well as being an academic researcher and long time friend of erowid) said that your questions are great and this is a well known problem in the field.

In order to confirm that they look the same in a GC/MC or LC/MS as the 3,4-MDMA, we'd need actual verified standards of each of the drug to run parallel through our system.

However, if not all those chemicals are available from certified labs, then someone could contact the author (yes it was a long time ago) and ask if they have any of their material catalog around that they could send us 1mg of each so we can run them in our equipment to build the library.

Our team's main guess is that either the GC or the IR will make it very obvious it's not the same chemical.

So, onwards!

earth
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@vash445 & @vecktor

I am in communication with Drugs Data, and would like to update them on what your research has uncovered so far. Would you summarize which tests were run on the meh product, and which tests showed the impurity, and what your current best guess is regarding that impurity? I may even be able to get them involved in analyzing some of the reports. I scrolled back through the thread, but there has been A LOT of info regarding the sample Vash analyzed, and I do not want to summarize it incorrectly.
 
indigoaura said:
@vash445 & @vecktor

I am in communication with Drugs Data, and would like to update them on what your research has uncovered so far. Would you summarize which tests were run on the meh product, and which tests showed the impurity, and what your current best guess is regarding that impurity? I may even be able to get them involved in analyzing some of the reports. I scrolled back through the thread, but there has been A LOT of info regarding the sample Vash analyzed, and I do not want to summarize it incorrectly.
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1H NMR showed the issue on peak 9 if i remember correctly. That's about the best I got
 
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Great work @indigoaura and thanks to Drugs Data for replying. But...

Doesn't the content of the email speak volumes about the current situation? There have been a couple of people on here who have said these analysis services are probably far from the quality level we would hope for and two things stick out from that message that, to me, back this up. Firstly, the tone isn't very professional - super relaxed. I haven't got a problem with that, and maybe it evolved from the correspondence, but it is surprising and makes the person look quite young and inexperienced. Secondly, if this UK expert that they talked about really is working with the authorities to identify the most difficult chemicals, then she/he should be totally on top of this and should have already evaluated all the similar looking substances and worked out how to differentiate them.

Just doesn't quite add up to me. I don't want to sound negative but it does come across as amateur from them and I don't get how that attitude/competence/experience manages to successfully get a license to handle prohibited substances.
 
^ Earth isn't exactly young anymore and I doubt he does the gc/ms testing himself, he just wrote the mail.
TripSitterNZ said:
Shit loads of killings in holland. Major gang wars go on all the time in south holland massive body count Assault rifles etc. The dutch police come across mass killing scene in drug flats alot involved in the mdma drug trade on weekly basis.
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Where? Mass killings? Don't believe everything you see or hear, this is greatly exaggerated.
 
Yea from brief communications in the past Earth seems like a chill guy easy to communicate with, don’t let his easy demeanor come off as lack of professionalism. (Interestingly I contacted him in regards to some EData results from the 90’s.)

And he’s an old timer, having started Erowid and all. Much respect for all he’s done.

Also maybe someone should write up a rough draft reply for ya Indigo? Like vektor or vash since they seems the most competent and familiar with these test results? We need a team effort to formulate a proper response because Earth is a busy guy and might just toss it out if there isn’t something there worth looking at.

-GC
 
Fair enough @Blowmonkey and @G_Chem and apologies to Earth. Didn't know his background. I still stick by what I said about the UK expert though. If they are involved in forensics they're basically saying the government have only done half a job. Unless they are just holding out on Drugs Data and haven't passed on the methodology (the expert that is).
 
C13 showed the issue on peak 9 if i remember correctly. That's about the best I got
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I don't know what this means. Was this on GCMS or another test? How many tests have been run on this product thus far? Where did the idea of the "dimer" come from? Would someone be able to write a full summary of what has been done with that meh sample?

Earth has been great. We have been corresponding back and forth for several months now, so any alteration in tone is probably due to that. He has been responsive and invested in our concerns. Way more professional that the people at IEC, who cannot even bother to continue replying to my emails and just ghost me.
 
Also, my big takeaway here is that we are absolutely correct in feeling concerned that some similar compounds could pass through testing unidentified. It sounds like these companies are mostly testing for KNOWN contaminants. They can tell you if your pill is DXM or MDXX, they can tell you if your pill is meth, but if they have not specifically added the product to the database, and it looks close enough, it could be misidentified.
 
indigoaura said:
I don't know what this means. Was this on GCMS or another test? How many tests have been run on this product thus far? Where did the idea of the "dimer" come from? Would someone be able to write a full summary of what has been done with that meh sample?

Earth has been great. We have been corresponding back and forth for several months now, so any alteration in tone is probably due to that. He has been responsive and invested in our concerns. Way more professional that the people at IEC, who cannot even bother to continue replying to my emails and just ghost me.
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Typical. There must be nothing more annoying for an 'expert' to be repeatedly asked questions he cannot answer. Furthermore, the expert's ego will not allow him to simply say "I don't know". He'd just rather ignore the question...
 
indigoaura said:
I don't know what this means. Was this on GCMS or another test? How many tests have been run on this product thus far? Where did the idea of the "dimer" come from? Would someone be able to write a full summary of what has been done with that meh sample?

Earth has been great. We have been corresponding back and forth for several months now, so any alteration in tone is probably due to that. He has been responsive and invested in our concerns. Way more professional that the people at IEC, who cannot even bother to continue replying to my emails and just ghost me.
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GCMS is probably pointless which is why we ran NMR 1H and 13C along with MALDI

This was on the 1H NMR.. not the 13C my bad... The idea for a dimmer came from. Because The MALDI came up 193.25 g/mol the mol weight of MDMA.

This batch of MDMA it a mixture of something that has practically the same NMR spectra as MDMA both 1H and 13C which means it has to contain the same carbon backbone and the same structural features, it cannot be an isomer because there are no isomers of MDMA which have the same mass and the same NMR spectrum.

Both together was "enough" to prove it was MDMA in his eyes till I said did you get high. He said no. Thats about all I got for ya from @vecktor (and please note I could be 100% wrong)



18090
 
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The other thing is what NMR guy said. That mystery peak is an impurity and is likely part of the same molecule that the new mini peak at 207 is part of......And we see that a peak at 207 .....An aldehyde or ketone!!!!! Yeaaaa!!!! !Your friends analysis is all correct but still doesn't tell us what's happening (as in C=O Still attached carbonyl or ketone) or R(CO)R in the picture below from what I can decipher on my own. He is just as confused as I am. It has carbonyl impurities, It's structure seems very close to what it should look like in nmr but not quite...
Screenshot_20191117-130304.png



This should be noted it is confusing as fuck for me so if someone like @vecktor or @Glubrahnum can feel to correct me any time.
 
Blowmonkey said:
^ Earth isn't exactly young anymore and I doubt he does the gc/ms testing himself, he just wrote the mail.

Where? Mass killings? Don't believe everything you see or hear, this is greatly exaggerated.
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Lol i have family who are dutch police officers and they have came across flats with 3-4 dead bodies in it a result of gang violence. not to mention the amount of bodies never found killed by the mafia in holland
 
Ok, so I could summarize something like this (please add your comments):

A sub-par, "meh" sample was submitted for testing. The testers ran NMR 1H and 13C along with MALDI.

The MALDI came up 193.25 g/mol the mol weight of MDMA.

This batch of MDMA is a mixture of something that has practically the same NMR spectra as MDMA (both 1H and 13C) which means it has to contain the same carbon backbone and the same structural features, it cannot be an isomer because there are no isomers of MDMA which have the same mass and the same NMR spectrum.

1H NMR showed the issue on peak 9. Also, there is a mini peak at 207. Perhaps an an aldehyde or ketone. Overall, the sample has carbonyl impurities. The structure seems very close to what MDMA should look like in NMR but not quite.
 
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