What is wrong with the MDMA available today?

[F.U.B.A.R.]

@F.U.B.A.R. Update us man!!!! Sending those PLUR vibes!

Ok. Felt the first alerts after about 10 minutes. Knew straight away it wasnt going to be overwhelming. Straight away had an intense desire to redose (first sign of meh product - always want more but never get there). So after half an hour did another 90mg. Went very cold and sedated. No pupil dilation but nice body rushes and some eye wiggles. Felt slightly horny, but couldn't be arsed to do anything about it. Hit the 2 hour mark and I was fast asleep!

FML

 

[Deleted member 521610]

Ok. Felt the first alerts after about 10 minutes. Knew straight away it wasnt going to be overwhelming. Straight away had an intense desire to redose (first sign of meh product - always want more but never get there). So after half an hour did another 90mg. Went very cold and sedated. No pupil dilation but nice body rushes and some eye wiggles. Felt slightly horny, but couldn't be arsed to do anything about it. Hit the 2 hour mark and I was fast asleep!

FML

Maybe i never felt meh i have seen product that looks like that before but avoided it due to just looking trash. My products hit me at 45 mins if i eat it and if it was a strong dosed pill 260 mg mdma in 2018 i took one at 5 pm and was at the end of my roll at 3 am with visuals darting along the roof after smoking so much weed the entire night. My eyes wide open pure darkness.

I know even on the darknet the very good product is not easy to find and most importers keep it a secret so they can keep sourcing it.

Im going to get a few grams of brownish rock mdma solid chucks not really crystals just pure raw rock form seeing as kgs of it is present atm in NZ. I also saw "mdma" that a crackhead was trying to sell but it almost looked like those fucking crystals new age hippies buy from those gysepy shops fucking strange looking product never trust crackheads selling drugs.

 

[indigoaura]

Idea for a crossover study, to check expectation effects: given a stock of "known good" MDMA, and a stock of "known meh" MDMA, construct a double blind trial where each participant is randomly selected to be given either meh or magic, but is also randomly told that they are taking either "meh" or "magic". Presumably the effects would correlate with either the stated quality, or the actual quality. Would be very interesting to see if this is all expectation effects. If it turns out that all you need to do is be told that your supply is "meh", maybe the "MehDMA" curse is just a big ol' meme, started when someone has a shitty roll from bad set/setting, and propagating via word of mouth.

Sekio...I really appreciate your scientific contributions, but sometimes...

Of course, a double blind study would provide valuable information, but that would be difficult to stage.

Also, the first Meh experience I had was when a friend finally managed to obtain "molly." I had never had crystal MDMA before, and had always been told that molly was better than pills. In my area at the time, pills circulated everywhere but never crystal or powder. I expected it to be one of the best, cleanest, most amazing rolls of my life. So, I was very confused and surprised when it was the opposite. Since then, there have been many occasions where I expected product to be great, and it wasn't. Way back when, there were times when I could only eat half a pill for whatever reason and expected to barely roll and "rolled balls." My personal experiences have not shown any correlation between expectation and result.

 

[indigoaura]

@F.U.B.A.R. I did not want to say it before and send you bad vibes, but your product looks a lot like some dw product I had awhile back that produced similar results.

 

[Deleted member 521610]

There are also various cathiones mixed into mdma so it passes regnant test but a quick test with a IR machine will show other cuts popping up. People have almost died here from Eutylone been passed off as mdma or mixed into it. But their is alot of new cathione RCs coming out of china with no human reports on that are unidentified atm Via IR/GCMS

 

[F.U.B.A.R.]

@F.U.B.A.R. I did not want to say it before and send you bad vibes, but your product looks a lot like some dw product I had awhile back that produced similar results.

Yeh, I've had the cola stuff before and found it a bit meh then. But as we all know, colour is no indication of quality.

(But it's a bloody good guide)

 

[fasterfb]

As for the 2CB...in my experience, taking 2CB after Meh product is horrible. Very negative. Headaches, overwhelming, unpleasant. I always heard how great it was, but that combo is BAD. I thought I was going to have to call an ambulance once when I mixed MehDMA + 2CB with the MehDMA first. Now, the flip side of that is that 2CB first actually seemed to reduce some of the negative effects of the MehDMA. This just makes me think there is something going on with receptor affinity.

That sounds horrible. It should definitely not be happening. All psychs that I've flipped have always added greatly to the experience.
It almost seems to me that your MehMDA is barely MDMA at all. Except that you had your batch tested.
I'm suspecting that your batch may heavily cut with some sort of RC stim that is somehow passing your testing.

 

[psy997]

There are also various cathiones mixed into mdma so it passes regnant test but a quick test with a IR machine will show other cuts popping up. People have almost died here from Eutylone been passed off as mdma or mixed into it. But their is alot of new cathione RCs coming out of china with no human reports on that are unidentified atm Via IR/GCMS

Again, irrelevant here.

@sekio thank you. I actually think it's doable for someone here with access to both good and bad product to do it. I think the biggest obstacle is getting enough people to run the thing. If anyone here has access to both and could round up maybe ten people that are willing, that would be sufficient for a first go, I imagine. You'll of course need a bit more than ten to run it double blinded properly. And, it's doable.

Of course, it's possible we could convince another group to attempt it, albeit difficult logistically and legally.

 

[G_Chem]

I believe I have some “meh-dma” that I could try this with.. Just gonna be hard to find some people I’m willing to do this with cuz the people close to mecthat roll I prefer not to give them shit product.

I could try it on myself though... Dissolve both doses in water and then have someone else blind administer them to me, then see if I can feel the difference.

Problem is I don’t really like to experiment too much on myself with empathogens cuz it burns up my yearly uses which I max at 6-8 a year.


In regards to that FUBAR product, looks too blocky. I had a feeling it was gonna be sub par.

-GC

 

[sekio]

I think the biggest obstacle is getting enough people to run the thing

It's not the ideal case, but a sample size of n=2 people could be enough to conduct a preliminary study. I'm thinking it'd span over a reasonably long period of time, maybe 3 months or so? Space the doses out with 3-4 weeks in between, and give 3-4 different trials. The dose, ROA, and environment should remain constant. It should be set up so each participant recieves both meh and magic over the duration of the study, to ensure that both types of M get a fair representation. Of course, more data is better. I can't imagine it would be that terribly difficult to get some people to volunteer to take MDMA and hang out in a beanbag chair watching 2001 or something.

Study participants should be given an overnight fast and a light breakfast, a urine drug screen (no sense in having interferences from other drugs), measurement of vitals, then followed by adminsitration of the test drug at e.g. 10AM. The test is conducted in the same location, which ideally should be comparable to the setting of other psychedelic therapy settings. Beanbag chairs, lava lamps, art on the walls, y;know - a chillout space, basically. Provide activities to keep the MDMA-addled subjects entertained for 6-8h. During the experience, data could be collected to validate the effects profile(s), either psychometrics, biometrics, or just narrative experiences. Upon conclusion of the experience the participants are once again checked and then released to go home.

Then three weeks later, we do it all over again, with a new set of randomized capsules. Repeat another two times or so, or as needed to provide the stastical significance. (I don't see a need to include a placebo, but that could be given too, if you feel like it.)

Yes, this is a very involved study. Probably outside of what the average BLer is capable of organizing. (Anyone wanna talk to MAPS?) I think that it'd be worth the investment in time and effort. Think of the prestige, being able to say you knew what the difference between Meh and MDMA was, and have the data to prove it exactly! Even if it provides a null result, you'd be giving people free empathogens, and furthering science as you do it.

 

[F.U.B.A.R.]

It's not the ideal case, but a sample size of n=2 people could be enough to conduct a preliminary study. I'm thinking it'd span over a reasonably long period of time, maybe 3 months or so? Space the doses out with 3-4 weeks in between, and give 3-4 different trials. The dose, ROA, and environment should remain constant. It should be set up so each participant recieves both meh and magic over the duration of the study, to ensure that both types of M get a fair representation. Of course, more data is better. I can't imagine it would be that terribly difficult to get some people to volunteer to take MDMA and hang out in a beanbag chair watching 2001 or something.

Study participants should be given an overnight fast and a light breakfast, a urine drug screen (no sense in having interferences from other drugs), measurement of vitals, then followed by adminsitration of the test drug at e.g. 10AM. The test is conducted in the same location, which ideally should be comparable to the setting of other psychedelic therapy settings. Beanbag chairs, lava lamps, art on the walls, y;know - a chillout space, basically. Provide activities to keep the MDMA-addled subjects entertained for 6-8h. During the experience, data could be collected to validate the effects profile(s), either psychometrics, biometrics, or just narrative experiences. Upon conclusion of the experience the participants are once again checked and then released to go home.

Then three weeks later, we do it all over again, with a new set of randomized capsules. Repeat another two times or so, or as needed to provide the stastical significance. (I don't see a need to include a placebo, but that could be given too, if you feel like it.)

Yes, this is a very involved study. Probably outside of what the average BLer is capable of organizing. (Anyone wanna talk to MAPS?) I think that it'd be worth the investment in time and effort. Think of the prestige, being able to say you knew what the difference between Meh and MDMA was, and have the data to prove it exactly! Even if it provides a null result, you'd be giving people free empathogens, and furthering science as you do it.

Reporting for duty Sarge...

 

[MBaggott]

Nick sands mentioned it somewhere in a open fourm at talks he would give...

If Nick said this, he must have been referring to an observation that 2C-B could help him feel better after MDMA. There aren't any studies giving reason to think it would be protective against serotonergic neurotoxicity. Indeed, studies with other psychedelics would make us predict 2C-B would enhance MDMA's serotonergic neurotoxicity. I'd bet on alpha lipoic acid and other antioxidants being helpful over 2C-B.

(I would note that I don't think we can assume aftereffects = neurotoxicity. Most animal neurotoxicity studies wait 2 weeks after dosing to make brain measures in order to try to only measure long-term changes; they usually make no measures in the time when transient aftereffects would occur. So we don't know much about the transient state of the brain after MDMA.)

 

[MBaggott]

An above-ground publishable (in conventional journals) MDMA study with human participants would cost hundreds of thousands of dollars. An above-ground publishable rat MDMA drug discrimination study would be in the tens of thousands, although a null result would be less definitive. An underground unpublishable MDMA study would just be effort and cost of materials.

 

[psy997]

I really think we should focus on doing this.

 

[G_Chem]

Hey guys,

So a long while back someone posted a link to a series of pages which were essentially reports of ecstasy pills ranging from very late 1990’s to early 2000’s. In it they discuss their reagent reactions, the look of the press, as well as a brief description of effects.

Could anyone link that or remember that? Really not keen on hunting back through 200 pages but I’ll do it if I have to.

-GC

 

[rainey]

I have researched this subject for years now and many may argue but I KNOW what the difference is. Ecstasy/mdma is no longer made with saffrole it is made with pmk glycidate and umpteen other derivitives which have been analysed and named on this forum by people who know what they are talking about. The recipe has changed. Saffrole produced all the effects that are now missing. Make it with saffrole and all those great effects will come back but no-one will do that as its so cheap to use the alternatives so that's it. FINISHED. Hope I am wrong!

 

[sekio]

You know that PMK glycidate can be produced from safrole, right? In fact, MDP2P/PMK are also derived from safrole, usually. (The other options would be via piperonal, or constructing your own safrole from methylenedioxybenzene & allyl-chloride or w/e)

 

[indigoaura]

Unfortunately, @rainey, we have had several posters use MDMA that was supposedly produced with safrole, but the effects were meh.

I think a huge danger with attempting this kind of study is that if you give people Meh-DMA and then one of those people experiences a long term comedown, or heaven forbid, ends up at a doctor's office or hospital, then you are in a world of hurt. That is extensive jail time. You were knowingly administering something that you believed was NOT MDMA or was contaminated MDMA.

@G_Chem Is this what you were thinking of? http://ecstasy.org/testing/db/current.html

 

[sekio]

I think a huge danger with attempting this kind of study is that if you give people Meh-DMA and then one of those people experiences a long term comedown, or heaven forbid, ends up at a doctor's office or hospital, then you are in a world of hurt.

That's why I'd require all study participants to be informed of potential risks, and sign a waiver acknowledging such. I'd think waivers would be mandatory for any sort of grey-area psychedelic research, they provide at leas a cursory level of legal ass-covering.

Here's a hard question for you logicians: if the Meh-DMA and MDMA are shown to be similar/identical on GCMS, would it still be considered giving the subjects "contaminated" MDMA if existing analytical tools all failed to demonstrate any difference from MDMA? I think it would be downright hilarious if at the end of the day nobody could prove anything, Meh and MDMA test the same on GCMS, and have similat impurity profiles... where would we go from there? Isotopic ratio profiling? "This MDMA has too much Carbon-13! / Deuterated MDMA gives the best rolls!"? Or maybe a return to spiritualism?

After all, this should be the One Study To Rule Them All: if it's conducted I want it to be foolproof and to nail down with certainty the difference between Meh and MDMA. Having a crack team of volunteers all willing to push the bounds of pharmacy and logic and live with the risks would be a requirement.

 

[G_Chem]

You know that PMK glycidate can be produced from safrole, right? In fact, MDP2P/PMK are also derived from safrole, usually. (The other options would be via piperonal, or constructing your own safrole from methylenedioxybenzene & allyl-chloride or w/e)

Most MDP2P and MDP2P glycidate is from piperonal these days, safrole is used rarely in comparison.

Unfortunately, @rainey, we have had several posters use MDMA that was supposedly produced with safrole, but the effects were meh.

I think a huge danger with attempting this kind of study is that if you give people Meh-DMA and then one of those people experiences a long term comedown, or heaven forbid, ends up at a doctor's office or hospital, then you are in a world of hurt. That is extensive jail time. You were knowingly administering something that you believed was NOT MDMA or was contaminated MDMA.

@G_Chem Is this what you were thinking of? http://ecstasy.org/testing/db/current.html

That it is, thank you Indigo

That's why I'd require all study participants to be informed of potential risks, and sign a waiver acknowledging such. I'd think waivers would be mandatory for any sort of grey-area psychedelic research, they provide at leas a cursory level of legal ass-covering.

Here's a hard question for you logicians: if the Meh-DMA and MDMA are shown to be similar/identical on GCMS, would it still be considered giving the subjects "contaminated" MDMA if existing analytical tools all failed to demonstrate any difference from MDMA? I think it would be downright hilarious if at the end of the day nobody could prove anything, Meh and MDMA test the same on GCMS, and have similat impurity profiles... where would we go from there? Isotopic ratio profiling? "This MDMA has too much Carbon-13! / Deuterated MDMA gives the best rolls!"? Or maybe a return to spiritualism?

After all, this should be the One Study To Rule Them All: if it's conducted I want it to be foolproof and to nail down with certainty the difference between Meh and MDMA. Having a crack team of volunteers all willing to push the bounds of pharmacy and logic and live with the risks would be a requirement.

It’s the risk of LTC that worries me as well. For myself and others... I have theorized (and still do) that the rise in LTC cases correlated with this supposed change in effects/synthesis route.

I’d forever hate myself if I accidentally ruined someone. Hence why the 1-2 potential “meh” batches sit in the back of the closet. Too scared to do anything more with them.

-GC