What is wrong with the MDMA available today?

[TripSitterNZ]

Like regular pcp or like 3meo-pcp because I wasn't aware that pcp made it's rounds to your part of the world.

once on one of the pill report sites saw a capsule that tested positive for like 20 substances ranging from mxe analogs, to cathoines, to 5meo-dipt. Really want to believe it was just some curious guy testing out the facilities testing capabilities and that they weren't actually being sold.

regular pcp. PCP is still around these parts in very limited amounts a few grams at most would pop up in area usually comes from asia. There is a massive Chinese drug lord whos triad syndicate runs a bunch of drugs into NZ australia and the region. Includes meth, ketamine and some other pharmaceuticals.

 

[mdmeidus]

any idea about 'white fluff'? I have only had champange colour and dark cola colour and some really clear crystal without any colour, but I haven't seen white fluff before. Is it even crystal or just powder mixed up with something?

 

[indigoaura]

Just updating everyone that two of my meh samples are on the way to @vash445 . I am looking forward to seeing the results.

 

[Negi]

Very unlikely to happen, and if someone did do it you’d very likely see close or spot on identical ratios for each one for a number or reasons. Also many of these samples with lots of active constituents are presses..

This practice of throwing together a hodgepodge of substances isn’t new. I remember seeing some pills with all sorts of crap in them, especially around 09-11 with the drought.

Shit like piperazines of all sorts mixed with 5-MeO-DiPT, benzocyclidine, tiny amount of MDMA to fool it, some cathinones for good measure..

Pressers often don’t try these mixtures out on a “focus group” to see if they even enjoyable. They just guess and hope for the best.

-GC

This is talking about capsules though. Pretty sure this is the one they were remembering: https://www.ecstasydata.org/view.php?id=6098
The "ladder" in terms of the ratio of the substances makes me suspicious, along with the fact that except for the caffeine all of the ingredients are research chemicals.
When it was discussed on reddit someone even mentioned using that exact method:

I do that, only have to pay for 1 testing but can get 6-8 chems tested at once with decent results if you keep track of how mnay parts of what chem you put in.

 

[phenethylo J]

yea that was actually the exact one I was thinking about

 

[Brnoxoxo]

If there were metrics (let's say: 1 out of 10 with the larger number being the greatest effect) to determine these physical observations for each category, real magic MDMA would rate a 10 across the board, every single time, by virtually everyone who had it.

If you read for example This study, they used several scales to determine the effects of 3 different drugs including MDMA. The scale from 1-10 is basically the same as VAS (Visual analogue scale) which use 1-100. It might be a good idea to do such "study" without having any ethical issues that academic workers have to deal with and after the study is done, send it to selected scientists and maybe some of them will be interested enough to try to replicate this on animals and bring this mehDMA vs. MagicDMA problem to a higher level. I've met and talked to 3 people with PhD. that are working with drugs like MDMA and all of them told me that for mehDMA vs. MagicDMA is no evidence.

 

[indigoaura]

I've met and talked to 3 people with PhD. that are working with drugs like MDMA and all of them told me that for mehDMA vs. MagicDMA is no evidence.

There have been links posted here to multiple research studies that demonstrate a quantifiable difference in MDMA samples due to contaminants, despite appearing to be MDMA on commonly available tests (GCMS). Although these studies present the lab side of the conversation, they lack the user experience piece.

From the article you posted, "MDMA acutely induces feelings of well-being, love, empathy, and prosociality [14, 15], and produces mild perceptual alterations that are thought to be primarily mediated by the release of serotonin (5-HT) [16, 17] and norepinephrine [18], and the direct activation of 5-HT2A receptors [19]."

What we have been discussing here is that some lab tested "MDMA" does not produce "feelings of well-being, love, empathy, and prosociality."

I also noted in the link that you posted that, "Preferred recreational doses are slightly lower and in the range of 80–120 mg" and that a 125 mg dose should produce "the full range of empathogenic MDMA-typical effects." From the user reports posted to this thread, "meh-DMA" is not fully active at 80-120 mg, with some users reporting substandard effects at doses up to 155 mg.

So, if research demonstrates that those are the effects/dose of MDMA, but MDMA is not producing the documented effects (across multiple users), then "what is wrong the MDMA?"

Now, admittedly, perhaps a better question is "What is wrong with the testing of MDMA?" as it is seeming more and more clear that testing methodologies are missing contaminants and/or impostor substances.

In any case, thanks for posting the link. I will read it more closely and go over the scale. Perhaps posters to this thread can begin to use the scale to share user reports.

 

[indigoaura]

Interestingly, that study took me to this study:

Effects of MDMA alone and after pretreatment with reboxetine, duloxetine, clonidine, carvedilol, and doxazosin on pupillary light reflex - PubMed

The MDMA-induced prolongation of the latency to and reduction of light-induced miosis indicate indirect central parasympathetic inhibition, and the faster recovery time reflects an increased sympathomimetic action. Both norepinephrine and serotonin mediate the effects of MDMA on pupillary...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

This study demonstrates that 125 mg of MDMA "produced mydriasis" but that "Both reboxetine and duloxetine interacted with the effects of MDMA on pupillary function."

IMO, this goes along with the study we were discussing a few pages back that showed the contaminants having an effect at the receptor level to reduce the effects of MDMA.
(https://sci-hub.tw/https://doi.org/10.1124/jpet.105.084426)

 

[ThreePointCircle]

I've met and talked to 3 people with PhD. that are working with drugs like MDMA and all of them told me that for mehDMA vs. MagicDMA is no evidence.

In addition to everything that @indigoaura said, the existence of the phrase mehDMA came about because of the evidence from user reports of a difference in different batches. So to say there is no evidence is clearly wrong. Does the dataset of user reports in this thread meet a quality threshold acceptable for publication in a journal - no, but it is a starting point. The analyses that have been published in this thread plus supporting papers looking at different aspects of problem will hopefully reach the point where a researcher is convinced that a full investigation is worth doing. So far we haven't brought someone into this discussion who is all of: passionate about finding an answer, has access to the right equipment and skills to generate a definitive dataset, and who has the license to handle the material and funding to do so. Not yet...

 

[indigoaura]

@ThreePointCircle I also think it is interesting to note that based on all the evidence we are seeing so far, it looks like the issue is undetected contaminants, or some type of isomer substance that is not being detected. So, as has always been the case, MDMA is MDMA (when it is MDMA). The problem is that drug testing services provide the illusion that some products are pure MDMA when they aren't. When those products fail to produce the documented effects of MDMA at documented full doses, it is confusing and alarming. It also seems that these sub-par products have saturated some markets due to questionable mass production. Whether this is due to insidious intent, or lazy/botched chemistry is anyone's guess.

 

[indigoaura]

After I get the results from @vash445, if he finds contaminants in Sample B, I am going to send Sample B to Drugs Data and see if they note any contaminants. I also had the idea that it would be pretty easy to obtain some of these 300+ mg "Dutch" pills, and then send one off to Drugs Data and one to Vash445. Since I have contact info for Drugs Data, if Vash is finding contaminants that they are missing, I could inform them. Maybe, after several instances of their analysis not finding the contaminant, that would be enough evidence for them to really look at how to improve their process. And, maybe knowing specifically what is being found and how it is being found, that could point them in the right direction.

All we need, IMO, is for any of these major harm reduction labs to acknowledge that there is a new contaminant that fools reagent tests and GCMS, and that new methodology will be used to detect it. Once one major player makes the announcement, the others will follow.

 

[Phobos]

If you read for example This study, they used several scales to determine the effects of 3 different drugs including MDMA. The scale from 1-10 is basically the same as VAS (Visual analogue scale) which use 1-100. It might be a good idea to do such "study" without having any ethical issues that academic workers have to deal with and after the study is done, send it to selected scientists and maybe some of them will be interested enough to try to replicate this on animals and bring this mehDMA vs. MagicDMA problem to a higher level. I've met and talked to 3 people with PhD. that are working with drugs like MDMA and all of them told me that for mehDMA vs. MagicDMA is no evidence.

I understand their position and why they said that, but the thing is that there has been research into synthesis byproducts, and research into how MDMA affects humans, but it would be basically impossible to do human testing of synthesis byproducts in combination with MDMA. So there can be no scientific paper that describes the issue.
But some of the people in this thread are conducting private testing and they might create the context where one or more previously undetected synthesis byproducts might be studied for their receptor activity in vitro in instance.

 

[F.U.B.A.R.]

From the user reports posted to this thread, "meh-DMA" is not fully active at 80-120 mg, with some users reporting substandard effects at doses up to 155 mg.

I would add that 'mehDMA' is not 'fully active' at ANY dose. It is not a dose issue, it is a quality issue.

These Dutch 'superstrength' pills are trying to compensate for lack of quality with quantity. It doesn't work...

 

[AutoTripper]

@ThreePointCircle I also think it is interesting to note that based on all the evidence we are seeing so far, it looks like the issue is undetected contaminants, or some type of isomer substance that is not being detected. So, as has always been the case, MDMA is MDMA (when it is MDMA). The problem is that drug testing services provide the illusion that some products are pure MDMA when they aren't. When those products fail to produce the documented effects of MDMA at documented full doses, it is confusing and alarming. It also seems that these sub-par products have saturated some markets due to questionable mass production. Whether this is due to insidious intent, or lazy/botched chemistry is anyone's guess.

I do like the almost simplicity of this concept and potential explanation.

From when I first got into substances age 16 onwards I have memories of contemplating exactly this and what made some tabs pills etc much more potent and effective than others.

And even then in 1996 97 there was the concept of many drugs simply not being as good as they used to be.

Obviously, dilution has always been a massive Factor but then I always felt that there was something else like when you you have the same dose of the exact same substance but contaminated in some way or at least watered down and binded at the same time, that it effectively will be mediocre in comparison.

So I have visions and memories of of picturing this when I encountered many very poor quality MDMA pills in my initial years when finding really good old school ecstasy pills was a novelty for a while.

But as my years of pill taking went by, especially from 2000's onwards, I did encounter many really poor MDMA pills which were so lacking in experience and to me were pretty MEH while at the same time I would still will get the absolute fire pure MDMA magic pills and Crystal powder etc.

But there were many batches of pills when nothing else was around which would make me sick not physically but mentally because there was just nothing there to resemble the true MDMA but I'm confident that they were MDMA for the most part.

I think I subconsciously assumed it was related to impurities without giving it much thought.

So meh MDMA was arguably surfacing and evolving long back, just not raising much collective attention.

Like, people would just know when pills were "shit", so...avoid, or lump it, or look elsewhere.

With a will, good beans were still everywhere. And nobody who had experienced legit MDMA enough times, could ever fail to distinguish. But tgerevwas a distinction, which is my point here.

 

[indigoaura]

@AutoTripper I think the distinction is that "back then" when we got bad pills, we assumed that a lab would show it was DXM, or meth, or whatever. I sent in "bad pills" and the lab showed "bad results." Only once did I send in a "bad pill" and have the lab tell me it was MDMA. At the time, I chalked it up to "set and setting," even though I took some different pills the same night and rolled fine. There just wasn't a concept of MDMA that had lackluster effects. We assumed it was either bunk (another substance entirely), or good (MDMA).

 

[andyturbo]

A few days ago:

"Australian police have played a key role in an international drug bust that's prevented 700kg of crystalline MDMA from reaching Brisbane, possibly to end up with Schoolies.

Australian Federal Police and Queensland police worked with officers in The Netherlands and Belgium to intercept a huge haul of the drug in the Dutch city of Rotterdam in late August.

That one shipment, bound for Queensland, netted 700kg of crystalline MDMA. Other raids at 15 locations in The Netherlands and Belgium earlier this month uncovered secret drug labs and more drugs.

In all, 850kg of crystalline MDMA was seized, along with 548 litres of MDMA oil and 400 litres of precursor chemicals."



MDMA Oil- Would that be Safarole..?
I will shortly get a sample out of this lot^ if anyones willing to lab test it I will send it your way.




Sorry to go a bit off topic.

A.T

 

[AutoTripper]

@AutoTripper I think the distinction is that "back then" when we got bad pills, we assumed that a lab would show it was DXM, or meth, or whatever. I sent in "bad pills" and the lab showed "bad results." Only once did I send in a "bad pill" and have the lab tell me it was MDMA. At the time, I chalked it up to "set and setting," even though I took some different pills the same night and rolled fine. There just wasn't a concept of MDMA that had lackluster effects. We assumed it was either bunk (another substance entirely), or good (MDMA).

Yes but this is a point I'm making I personally am 100-percent certain that I encountered many crap pill which were not other substances but MDMA and probably low quantity but there was something not right about it where quantity could never make up for lack of quality but it was definitely MDMA or at least some sort of MDMA and not the other suspected compounds.

Your own experience might have been different with the inferior pills you encountered more commonly being another substance altogether.

That is not what I'm referring to in my own experience though. I can assure anyone that there were inferior MDMA pills a long time before 2005, and in the context I have described it above with regarding the undeniable distinction, it was definitely not assumed that the pills were a different substance as being the explanation.

That did occur a lot also of course, but was a separate matter.

 

[vash445]

A few days ago:

"Australian police have played a key role in an international drug bust that's prevented 700kg of crystalline MDMA from reaching Brisbane, possibly to end up with Schoolies.

Australian Federal Police and Queensland police worked with officers in The Netherlands and Belgium to intercept a huge haul of the drug in the Dutch city of Rotterdam in late August.

That one shipment, bound for Queensland, netted 700kg of crystalline MDMA. Other raids at 15 locations in The Netherlands and Belgium earlier this month uncovered secret drug labs and more drugs.

In all, 850kg of crystalline MDMA was seized, along with 548 litres of MDMA oil and 400 litres of precursor chemicals."



MDMA Oil- Would that be Safarole..?
I will shortly get a sample out of this lot^ if anyones willing to lab test it I will send it your way.

View attachment 17900 View attachment 17901
View attachment 17903 View attachment 17904

Sorry to go a bit off topic.

A.T

NO MDMA OIL is FREEBASE MDMA oil. It's a liquid, They do that for AMPH as well. Just add .hcl...

 

[vash445]

A few days ago:

"Australian police have played a key role in an international drug bust that's prevented 700kg of crystalline MDMA from reaching Brisbane, possibly to end up with Schoolies.

Australian Federal Police and Queensland police worked with officers in The Netherlands and Belgium to intercept a huge haul of the drug in the Dutch city of Rotterdam in late August.

That one shipment, bound for Queensland, netted 700kg of crystalline MDMA. Other raids at 15 locations in The Netherlands and Belgium earlier this month uncovered secret drug labs and more drugs.

In all, 850kg of crystalline MDMA was seized, along with 548 litres of MDMA oil and 400 litres of precursor chemicals."



MDMA Oil- Would that be Safarole..?
I will shortly get a sample out of this lot^ if anyones willing to lab test it I will send it your way.

View attachment 17900 View attachment 17901
View attachment 17903 View attachment 17904

Sorry to go a bit off topic.

A.T

Would be nice to get a sample doubtful thou

 

[vecktor]

MDMA Oil- Would that be Safarole..?
I will shortly get a sample out of this lot^ if anyones willing to lab test it I will send it your way.

MDMA oil is crude freebase MDMA.

Quite why law enforcement like to make this distinction is baffling. I think it has something to do with US/AUS retarded obsession with crystal this and crystal that, as being something special.

the photos show a catalytic hydrogenation process. So that would be a PMK process.

there is a video out there, complete with heroic music and knuckle head foot soldiers with tactical gear and big necks.