What is wrong with the MDMA available today?

[vecktor]

Also MDMA is being made and encountered from helional.
OR via
The DARK Side of Total Synthesis: Strategies and Tactics in Psychoactive Drug Production

The Shulze lab recently published an MDMA synthesis that features a Curtius rearrangement (Scheme 27).89Treatment of helional (157) with sodium propionate and propionic anhydride resulted in a Perkin reaction to give unsaturated carboxylic acid 158. Olefin hydrogenation followed by acyl chloride synthesis gave (±)-159. At this point, generation of the acyl azide and subsequent Curtius rearrangement provided an isocyanate. Exposure of this intermediate to t-BuOK gave the corresponding Boc carbamate. N-Methylation followed by acid mediated Boc deprotection provided (±)-MDMA (129) which was isolated as its oxalate salt.

This has been mentioned and discussed before in this thread, the shulze lab route does not start from Helional it starts from Piperonal also known as Heliotropin and it does not involve helional at any point in the synthesis. It is a sloppy error riddled paper.

In the great scheme of things though it is a very poor route and unlikely ever to get popular.

The commercial MDMA synthesis is only going to change if PMK glycidate gets difficult to get for the clandestines, at the moment it is easily obtained and will remain so for quite a while, and even as one glycidate ester is regulated the chinese mfrs will just switch to another uncontrolled ester, the Chinese gray manufacturers of glycidate are clearly able to obtain piperonal in China without problems and this business has been very lucrative for them.

leaving that aside MDMA is going to be around no matter what.

I'm quite sure that a competent chemist could figure out an efficient route one pot 3 step route starting from a certain readily available uncontrolled ketone. or a one pot 2 step if a certain related diketone becomes commercially available.
I'm also quite sure that someone will eventually realize the significance of hydride reduction of isocyanates directly to methylamines.

 

[vash445]

This has been mentioned and discussed before in this thread, the shulze lab route does not start from Helional it starts from Piperonal also known as Heliotropin and it does not involve helional at any point in the synthesis. It is a sloppy error riddled paper.

In the great scheme of things though it is a very poor route and unlikely ever to get popular.

The commercial MDMA synthesis is only going to change if PMK glycidate gets difficult to get for the clandestines, at the moment it is easily obtained and will remain so for quite a while, and even as one glycidate ester is regulated the chinese mfrs will just switch to another uncontrolled ester, the Chinese gray manufacturers of glycidate are clearly able to obtain piperonal in China without problems and this business has been very lucrative for them.

leaving that aside MDMA is going to be around no matter what.

I'm quite sure that a competent chemist could figure out an efficient route one pot 3 step route starting from a certain readily available uncontrolled ketone. or a one pot 2 step if a certain related diketone becomes commercially available.
I'm also quite sure that someone will eventually realize the significance of hydride reduction of isocyanates directly to methylamines.

That last one you said looks mightly attractive, reguardless it still looks mdma is made from helional after making MDA of course. There is par course HELIONAL to MDP2P. HOW, well I wouldn't dare say here but man is it good.

And yes there is 1 or 2 unregulated ketones i have thought of has well, no idea if it could be a one pot or not that is a whole different matter

 

[Hilopsilo]

the guys I deal with almost always have mdma that is in the low 90%s for purity with the major impurity being over-reduced mdp2p, and as vecktor says that can be removed easily by recrystallization if you feel the need to

set, setting, and expectation play a huge role in any drug experience. I have had instances where someone *insisted* that two batches of a dissociative must be different... nope, to my skilled eyes they were identical salts, identical mass on GC, identical solubility and mp...

As for regioisomers, show me how you can go from MDP2P to methylenedioxybenzyl isopropylamine or 4-ethoxymethamphetamine or w/e.

My sample that was crappy had MDP2P leftover, the stuff that didnt had no (that they detected) MDP2P leftover. Indigo's crappy sample has MDP2P in it, I think thats a clue.

We're not talking about dissociatives, no ultimate-pure-LSD crystal, talking about MDMA. Just my opinion, the experience of MDMA is far, FAR, less left to set and setting than psychedelics or dissociatives.

As for how they get from MDP2P to a regioisomer? I dont have a clue, but these guys seem to think its quite possible since they found them in 1/3 of the samples they tested https://www.researchgate.net/public...ethylamphetamine_in_clandestine_ecstasy_pills

By no means do we know what the culprit is, but I think with all these possibilities we've identified I think we can say without reasonable doubt all clandestine MDMA is not created equal at least in regards to what testing centers tell you

 

[G_Chem]

^^^That brings up a good point, if the authors of that article seem to think it’s down to improper synthesis I’d like to see the mechanism behind that. What is taking place to get these different regioisomers and which ones should we expect..

-GC

 

[vecktor]

^^^That brings up a good point, if the authors of that article seem to think it’s down to improper synthesis I’d like to see the mechanism behind that. What is taking place to get these different regioisomers and which ones should we expect..

-GC

if you read carefully the paper says that 9/28 samples had an impurity which was a regioisomer of MDMA. so it could quite easily be just one or two regioisomers contaminating all 9 samples.

is this real:
Depending on the synthetic route M-Alpha which is MDMA with the methylamino moved to the benzylic position formed where the MDP2P is impure and contains methylenedioxy propiophenone, likewise the regioisomer with the methylamino moved to the end of the side chain is likely where the MDP2P contains methylenedioxyphenylpropionaldehyde (a known by product of wacker oxidation of safrole)
other regioisomers are vaguely possible with known chemistry but unlikely.

or it could just be an artifact:
A posibility is that the 'regioisomer' is actually MDMA itself and they screwed up the injection of the sample, which split the injection into two separate injections. for example a splitless injection with dirty split lines or dirty filters will make a second peak as the injected vapor flashes back into the inlet when the splitless goes into split mode. this will give two peaks when there should only be one. The size of the 'regioisomer' peak relative to the MDMA peak is suspicious, but supposedly the HPLC data backs it up.

is there a real peer reviewed version of this work? this is a conference submission and is not peer reviewed if there is not a paper that corresponds with this then take it all with a pinch of salt, the authors might not have submitted it for publication because the work was flawed.

 

[Hilopsilo]

I've searched high and low for more information on that paper or the subject in general but no dice, have been meaning to write to the authors to find out more!

 

[Hilopsilo]

Some quotes from the paper Vash just posted ( https://sci-hub.tw/http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.forsciint.2012.10.040 )

"Cheng et al. [75] reported on tablets containing MDMA thought to be prepared by the Leuckart method. Their findings mirror those of Verweij [49] above in that dimers, pyridines and 4-methyl-5-(3,4-methylenedioxyphenyl)pyrimidine were detected (tentatively)." (This is an observation on that even NON-CLANDESTINE MDMA [Verweij] has these impurities, not just sketchy street drugs)

"Gimeno et al. [80] profiled 10 MDMA seizures and identified (presumably by mass spectrometry alone) 26 different compounds of which benzaldehyde, 1,3-benzodioxole, 3,4-methylenedioxytoluene, AP,1,2-dimethyl-3-phenylaziridine, safrole,3,4 methylenedioxyphenylpropane, 3,4-methylenedioxybenzaldehyde, methcathinone,, 3,4- methylenedioxybenzyl chloride, isosafrole, 3,4-methylenedioxy-Nmethylbenzylamine (structure A5), 3,4-methylenedioxy-N,Ndimethylbenzylamine, 3,4-methylenedioxybenzyl alcohol, PMA 3,4-methylenediox-N-ethyl-N-methylamphetamine, N,N-dimethyl-(1,2-methylenedioxy)4-(2-aminopropyl)benzene, N-methyl-1-[1,2- dimethoxy-4-(2-aminopropyl)benzene, N-ethyl-N-methyl-(1,2- methylenedioxy)-4-(2-aminopropyl)benzene and N-methyl-(1,2-methylenedioxy)-4-(1-ethyl-2-aminopropyl)benzene" (Yeah, so a lot of shit...)

"An impurity found in MDMA samples seized and analysed in France was N-formyl-MDMA (structure F8). This impurity, present in 25% of the samples is said to be specific to the Leuckart reaction" (this led me to the following paper: https://www.thevespiary.org/rhodium/Rhodium/pdf/forensic/mdma.tablets.impurity.profiling.pdf where it reads:

"Another interesting impurity found in the samples analyzed is N-formyl-MDMA, compound no.°23. This impurity, present in 25% (13) of chromatographic profiles studied, is known to be specific to the Leuckart reaction"

From that same paper:
"The most common impurity found is 3,4-MDP-2-P: compound no.°10. Thus, 75% (39) of analyzed samples contained this important product," (ok, if forensic scientists are finding MDP2P in 75% of samples they analyzed, we can without reasonable doubt say that testing centers are missing it a lot of the time, it only shows up in 15/8000 tests on ED, 6 of which are data from the DEA which goes much more in depth overall, there are not many entries labelled as DEA).

Looking at some of the spectrums shown in that second study, they're labelling some really short peaks. It reminds me, when I had my meh sample tested at the on-site festival FTIR, since I was pretty sure something was funky about it, I remember them showing me the result and telling me "nope thats just MDMA, theres a bit of noise up here but thats not much", in these scientific studies it looks like they're actually looking at those much smaller peaks? Rather than dismissing it as noise

 

[vash445]

concentrated is likely at any scale, it come down to greed, trying to get the maximum amount of stuff in one run out of whatever scale of kit the clandestine has.

I am unconvinced by EDs general competence, but I would hope that even they would see 30% dimer !! Then again 30% dimer is very unlikely because that would need so much less methylamine present in the reaction, which is a major synthetic screw up even for clandestines. I suspect that the dimer is present in their GCMS data and it is eluting late in the run with all the other junk from the column and they just are not looking for it. the mass spectrum would look very very similar to MDMA. Giving the testers the benefit of the doubt and the amounts of dimer are small then does this matter? I think it might.

SRIs are active in the single milligram range and can really inhibit MDMA. Whether MDMA dimer is active in this range in humans who knows. There are plenty of SRIs known with sub nanomolar Ki . The MDA dimer is a reuptake inhibitor according to some of the in vitro work in the papers above. MDMA dimer probably too. The interesting thing here is that the main distinction between Meh and Magic is not complete absence of effects but subtly different effects.
MDMA mostly works on NE not SE but the more subtle MDMA effects are probably due to its interaction with SERT

I think the theory that it is due to a contaminant that is analytically hard to spot is still standing at the moment.

More NMR is needed of definite Meh and definite Magic and careful GCMS too of both meh and magic. if there is something to see then those tools will show it.

Spiked samples sent to ED or the other testing organizations would reveal what they can and can't see. It seems highly unlikely they are going to openly and publically co-operate on this as it would reveal their true capabilities. If anyone from ED or any other testing organization wants to discuss analysis and analytical techniques feel free to PM me, though I won't be holding my breath.

The ultimate proof would be to mix pure MDMA with a known contaminant (the dimer perhaps) and see if it was then reported as meh by those consuming it.

Any Ethics comittee would have a stroke over that experimental protocol but it would answer the question

I know Energy control uses UltraViolet–Visible Spectroscopy (UV/Vis): This technique is used in the quantification of MDMA and 2C-B

Which don't you need a pretty pure sample along with FTIR? Maybe these labs are taking short cuts testing but are missing what we clearly see in this batch of meh with NMR. or they stop running the GC/MS because it pops up MDMA and they confirming with FTIR and the FTIR or similar detects the same mol weight, structure etc. so they are like yeah good enough 97% DARKNET DUTCH DIRT but white as fuck and meh? .

HE was confident we HAD 96-98% pure MDMA and stopped after NMR and MALDI, I so I wouldnt doubt this keeps happening in one way or another. I pretty much had to say did how how did you really feel before he started to question the MALDI and NMR results

We also had a similar issue with 2NP and Nitroethane with similar result but this is a much more challenging puzzle for sure.

 

[Goodwalt]

Well if that's the case I don't blame them, they probably have a lot of samples to analyze. But it kind of took us to this point where a lot of us have the same "lab tested" mdma which clearly gives different experiences to each one.

 

[vash445]

Some quotes from the paper Vash just posted ( https://sci-hub.tw/http://dx.doi.org/10.1016/j.forsciint.2012.10.040 )

"Cheng et al. [75] reported on tablets containing MDMA thought to be prepared by the Leuckart method. Their findings mirror those of Verweij [49] above in that dimers, pyridines and 4-methyl-5-(3,4-methylenedioxyphenyl)pyrimidine were detected (tentatively)." (This is an observation on that even NON-CLANDESTINE MDMA [Verweij] has these impurities, not just sketchy street drugs)

"Gimeno et al. [80] profiled 10 MDMA seizures and identified (presumably by mass spectrometry alone) 26 different compounds of which benzaldehyde, 1,3-benzodioxole, 3,4-methylenedioxytoluene, AP,1,2-dimethyl-3-phenylaziridine, safrole,3,4 methylenedioxyphenylpropane, 3,4-methylenedioxybenzaldehyde, methcathinone,, 3,4- methylenedioxybenzyl chloride, isosafrole, 3,4-methylenedioxy-Nmethylbenzylamine (structure A5), 3,4-methylenedioxy-N,Ndimethylbenzylamine, 3,4-methylenedioxybenzyl alcohol, PMA 3,4-methylenediox-N-ethyl-N-methylamphetamine, N,N-dimethyl-(1,2-methylenedioxy)4-(2-aminopropyl)benzene, N-methyl-1-[1,2- dimethoxy-4-(2-aminopropyl)benzene, N-ethyl-N-methyl-(1,2- methylenedioxy)-4-(2-aminopropyl)benzene and N-methyl-(1,2-methylenedioxy)-4-(1-ethyl-2-aminopropyl)benzene" (Yeah, so a lot of shit...)

"An impurity found in MDMA samples seized and analysed in France was N-formyl-MDMA (structure F8). This impurity, present in 25% of the samples is said to be specific to the Leuckart reaction" (this led me to the following paper: https://www.thevespiary.org/rhodium/Rhodium/pdf/forensic/mdma.tablets.impurity.profiling.pdf where it reads:

"Another interesting impurity found in the samples analyzed is N-formyl-MDMA, compound no.°23. This impurity, present in 25% (13) of chromatographic profiles studied, is known to be specific to the Leuckart reaction"

From that same paper:
"The most common impurity found is 3,4-MDP-2-P: compound no.°10. Thus, 75% (39) of analyzed samples contained this important product," (ok, if forensic scientists are finding MDP2P in 75% of samples they analyzed, we can without reasonable doubt say that testing centers are missing it a lot of the time, it only shows up in 15/8000 tests on ED, 6 of which are data from the DEA which goes much more in depth overall, there are not many entries labelled as DEA).

Looking at some of the spectrums shown in that second study, they're labelling some really short peaks. It reminds me, when I had my meh sample tested at the on-site festival FTIR, since I was pretty sure something was funky about it, I remember them showing me the result and telling me "nope thats just MDMA, theres a bit of noise up here but thats not much", in these scientific studies it looks like they're actually looking at those much smaller peaks? Rather than dismissing it as noise

I'll have my guy take a closer look at those smaller peaks see if he can see a similar N-formyl

 

[indigoaura]

We still have not eliminated the possibility that the "magic" MDMA has an active impurity that is making it more "magic." This seems especially possible since a lot of these byproducts are from Leuckart, and as @G_Chem has pointed out repeatedly, users reported a different (better?) and more active high from Leuckart.

 

[psy997]

We still have not eliminated the possibility that the "magic" MDMA has an active impurity that is making it more "magic." This seems especially possible since a lot of these byproducts are from Leuckart, and as @G_Chem has pointed out repeatedly, users reported a different (better?) and more active high from Leuckart.

Good point!

 

[vash445]

We still have not eliminated the possibility that the "magic" MDMA has an active impurity that is making it more "magic." This seems especially possible since a lot of these byproducts are from Leuckart, and as @G_Chem has pointed out repeatedly, users reported a different (better?) and more active high from Leuckart.

I find it doubtful but im sending in a batch of magic soon, the impurity idea making it more magic was based on the idea of safrole vs PMK glyciate ,Also the Leuckart is less active they said if impure product i'm pretty sure I read in science articles necause of the N-formyl

sadly we are barley getting an idea of what possibly causes magic. So while we or I cant doubt it, I think the issue and my hypothesis is impurity that wasnt detected before inhibiting the high. MAPS does not have this magic issue and they made it from PIPERONAL and safrole probably going 2 vastly routes

 

[vash445]

searching r/MDMA is confirming more and more that MDMA is turning to trash.

 

[Deleted member 521610]

Super mega doses, Even I remember on my binge I would only do .2 tops a few days in a row... the .4 was a 1 time thing because I really didn't feel shit. This is linging up more and more with trash

hardcore users here using magic mdma will do as much as they want no in the down under gives a single fuck about harm reduction. I had a close friend who dropped 1 gram while on shrooms lucky to be alive. My average dose on rolling weekly was i would start with around .2 and just redose all night til the party ended so i would be rolling from 9-10 pm til 6 am the next day from the amount of mdma i would use these comedowns are awful and will drive you close to suicide. 150 mg is more than enough for people without tolerance to be rolling for a good amount of time.

 

[vash445]

hardcore users here using magic mdma will do as much as they want no in the down under gives a single fuck about harm reduction. I had a close friend who dropped 1 gram while on shrooms lucky to be alive. My average dose on rolling weekly was i would start with around .2 and just redose all night til the party ended so i would be rolling from 9-10 pm til 6 am the next day from the amount of mdma i would use these comedowns are awful and will drive you close to suicide. 150 mg is more than enough for people without tolerance to be rolling for a good amount of time.

Oh get get me wrong I had my week of rollingbut even then I never did .4-5 maybe on day 6 where I was more tweeker then rolling? reguladless, I thought I lost the magic, nah just trash MDMA

 

[Hilopsilo]

I'd take all that with a grain of salt, we don't know anything about what these people took or any other details really, lets not forget people have had crumby experiences with drugs/crumby experiences with crumby drugs since ever, and they're more likely to ask about it online if it wasn't a good experience versus good.

This was discussed a bit earlier in this thread but, IMO MDMA becoming incredibly inexpensive makes it that much more prone to abuse, and ever since the big shift from pressed pills to powder/crystal form, culture surrounding dosing it changed. Before (also now but less common) you have this pressed pill that you perceive as your dose, you eat it and thats it, its even got a cute little stamp on it, its all prepared. You look at the thing and it makes sense what to do, you eat it and thats the end of it, maybe chew it if you're feeling frisky. Now? You've got a baggy of the stuff and its a bit more ambiguous, you might not even know how much if a scale isn't handy, it wasn't even that expensive, might as well dive in, more appealing to snort bumps of it all night than when they were these hard little pressed pills with dyes and binders mixed in screaming for you to just eat the damn thing. I know a lot of people who just blow lines of the stuff all night, its not that its weak/bad M, just when you do it like that, constantly redosing, you can consume a lot more

3 years ago at a festival stuff that 100mg did me just fine, a friend of mine took nearly an entire gram of it "just cuz". It seems to me, just observing people, it does seem true that taking bigger doses of MDMA doesn't necessarily equal better effects, lot of people seem to basically black out if too high of a dose is taken, much more just "fucked up", not necessarily get twice the love for twice the dose. Initially I thought, and I still sort of think it, a lot of the people reporting "mongy" effects from these massive pressed pills, its just way too big of a dose and that 400mg of MDMA turns you into a zombie. I shudder at what such a dose would feel like since I only know 100mg, but I can't imagine I'd just get 4 times the effects from 400mg. I think the nature of the high must change when the first 100mg of the dose already blew your serotonin wide open but theres an extra 300mg that came in at the same time, overloads it.

Another point on that topic, shooting MDMA is not very popular among IV drug users, from what I've read its basically too intense, it becomes dysphoric and uncomfortable. I imagine taking a massive oral dose has the same problem.

As for that person not feeling it, one of the first times I rolled I ate an entire bag of rice cakes (like those long cylinders) an hour before dosing and it took, I kid you not, like 3 hours to kick in. Can't remember if it was any weaker since i was 15 lol. It was a pressed pill though, the few times i took pressed pills I remember it taking longer to kick in, which is why we just chewed them (well also because we listened to mac dre's thizzle dance and thought it was cool).

Obviously everything im saying is all anecdotal as well, but thats just it, anecdotes are only so useful, especially from these people on r/mdma that don't seem all that experienced or have any idea what is going lol

 

[indigoaura]

Well, we are pushing beyond anecdotes and into actual, testable theories at this point. Hopefully seeing test results on multiple "meh" samples will start to shed some light. We have published research backing up several of our leading theories. So, although there are plenty of anecdotes that support the theory that something is wrong with the product, now we are getting more tangible information as well.

Then I get all weird and uncomfortable, and can't wait to get off the boat and get home. As soon as I got home, I went to bed. Talk about a waste of drugs, right?

This really reminds me of my Meh experiences. You ARE fucked up, but it is not rewarding. I can't think of how many times I wished I could go to bed, or wished that people would stop talking to me. If I was at a live music event, I may just wish for it to be over. Sometimes it is like aggressive restfulness. "I really wish everything was just quiet and I could lie down," except lying down doesn't feel good or rewarding either. Sometimes the shift from sober to meh is from a positive headspace to a negative one. I witnessed this first hand with a virgin roller who talked all night about death and terrible family trauma. She was happy before she took the pill.

 

[Hilopsilo]

If she talked about death and family trauma all night, well thats why they use MDMA in therapy, it makes talking about otherwise uncomfortable or scary things come easily, thats the point.

Im not saying any of this is completely illegitimate, but we cant completely forget that drugs affect everyone differently, set and setting does matter, and theres so little info included in seeking out other peoples bad experiences with MDMA. Meh or not people do have bad experiences with MDMA, it makes you very emotional. Especially being in uncomfortable settings or around people who arent rolling, i remember one of the first times i rolled, I was the only one who took and people i was with thought it was kind of funny. My eyes were huge and i was being overly nice, and they just sort of made fun of me, not in an incredibly mean way, but it was abrasive and was intensified by the drug. I remember just wanting it to end, almost crying, being mad at myself for taking such a hard drug, etc.

Just my opinion, a wedding on a boat full of likely drunk and not rolling
people sounds like a place id wanna get out of too if i took mdma.

Even this past summer, in the middle of my roll with what was definitely the good stuff, this couple came up to our group and sort of rudely asked for a whippit. I didnt have many left nor a clean balloon for them so i declined. They kept asking, finally stopped, but just stood next to us acting all annoyed, smoking a ton of weed and offering it to everyone except us to basically taunt us (we never even asked for it either). This (briefly) KILLED my roll, it was soooo comfortable and I almost got angry. Angry that they could be so insensitive. I also got paranoid that they might get more confrontational, tell security we had whippits, try to fight us, etc. Once they left things returned to normal. MDMA intensifies situations, usually good but can be bad. I still get uncomfortable thinking about that situation.

Maybe these people did crappy MDMA, or a lot of other factors could be at play that we shouldnt ignore, they still matter even if all MDMA is not created equal

 

[tarzan119]

How common are the side effects like pupil dialation, eye wiggles, jaw clenching in relation to real magic MDMA vs Meh? Though the intensity may vary in person to person, with real magic MDMA in moderate doses, it is generally the same across the board from what I've seen over the decades when dealing with the real thing...

Real magic MDMA from it's glory days and much less available in 2019 has pupils like saucers, barely any iris, eyes shaking out of your head, loved up tactile sensations during massages or skin touching, jaw clenching your chin off your face, intense long lasting peak, etc.

If there were metrics (let's say: 1 out of 10 with the larger number being the greatest effect) to determine these physical observations for each category, real magic MDMA would rate a 10 across the board, every single time, by virtually everyone who had it.

These physical side effects are notably lacking with Meh. Low empathy, low tactile sensation, increased lethargy. Though the jaw clenching may be present but minimal, pupil dialation minimal, little to no eye wiggles during a peak (if any peak is even noticable for that matter). Veteran and new rollers alike would likely rate it very low with the same scale. (tolerance aside in newb/virgin roller controls, reagent tested positive as MDMA, yet the effects of which is regularly reported to be Meh like now a day)

If the amount of true MDMA in mg weight is equally available in two separate samples (one magic and one meh), where the meh samples had been tested and exclusively shown to have impurities, dimers, regioisomers, or other contamination through a clumsy clansestine cooking process and/or certain precursors that INHIBIT the serotonin or mechanisms which create the magic, that would surely be the culprit. Right?

There isn't any doubt that MDMA is MDMA. But there certainly are variables in play that are ultimately impacting how we respond to one batch of magic vs the other batch of meh with all things considered.