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What is wrong with the MDMA available today? - v2

Care to elaborate?
I’m sure it means simply, nuts like me, simply gobbled so much MDMA, MDA and MDE (you see how it would be so much simpler to just say- ecstasy, hence partly my accepting the other two as equivalents for that definition art term), that they simply….lost the magic.

Except, I totally never did. Not at all. But that was then, I can’t comment on how MDMA would work for me now.

It definitely never stopped working though, and the side effects, comedowns were honestly no tougher in 2005 than they were in 1996.

Sure it was all a long time ago but these type of experiences, are like yesterday when it comes to reflection. So vividly imprinted with so much detail and connection to literally navigate around as if in a regression state of consciousness.
 
Yep, that’s the one going soon:


But a Jack out the box, as giant German located global shipping centres for 1cP-LSD can no longer run with regulation coming in 2 years after it’s whip-out release to jump the Govt’s previous hurdle….well just when it looked like they had won again, the clever Chemists in Holland have cunningly whipped out- 1V-LSD!

In 150 mcg blotters to account for a larger molecular mass, said to be equivalent to about 120 ug of 1cP-LSD.

Just for Germany too, but now the cat’s out, I expect it will be on tap from the makers in Holland and elsewhere globally, as typically.

It’s just a shame they stopped making ALD 52 in 2019, it really is my favourite lysergamide. They could still produce it, but it’s expensive to do so, and so much of their custom depends on flow through Germany, hence these clever tricks to keep buying another year or two of smooth business each time fairplay.
 
Yep, that’s the one going soon:


But a Jack out the box, as giant German located global shipping centres for 1cP-LSD can no longer run with regulation coming in 2 years after it’s whip-out release to jump the Govt’s previous hurdle….well just when it looked like they had won again, the clever Chemists in Holland have cunningly whipped out- 1V-LSD!

In 150 mcg blotters to account for a larger molecular mass, said to be equivalent to about 120 ug of 1cP-LSD.

Just for Germany too, but now the cat’s out, I expect it will be on tap from the makers in Holland and elsewhere globally, as typically.

It’s just a shame they stopped making ALD 52 in 2019, it really is my favourite lysergamide. They could still produce it, but it’s expensive to do so, and so much of their custom depends on flow through Germany, hence these clever tricks to keep buying another year or two of smooth business each time fairplay.
I wonder how much banning 3-MMC in NL will affect the supply to the rest of the world. I ordered last couple times from Spain.
 
I wonder how much banning 3-MMC in NL will affect the supply to the rest of the world. I ordered last couple times from Spain.
Well, I have zero clue on that. But I would be much more curious about exactly which popular RC’s come exclusively from Holland, the main “Green Giants” haha



Like, I suspect Etizolam is produced outside of Holland but don’t know. I wonder if the clearnet Tryptamines like 4-Aco DMT etc, come exclusively from Holland.

And the clearnet Lysergamides, I feel or have no reason yet not to believe, are all produced exclusively by the one Dutch Lab.

But who knows for sure.
 
Is there any reason supply of MDMA could come in contact with formalin/formaldehyde? Apparently it converts MDMA to MDDMA (see this thesis)
Yes, absolutely. Many times, because methylamine is so heavily regulated and watched, the clandestine chemist must produce their own methylamine. One common enough route to synthesizing methylamine is through a reaction involving Ammonium Chloride, Formaldehyde, and Chloroform (three of the best-smelling chemicals you could ever want, lol). Here's more info on that reaction: https://www.erowid.org/archive/rhodium/clandestine/methylamine/index.html

A side product of this methylamine synthesis, obviously enough, could easily be unconverted formaldehyde and it looks like MDDMA. Nice find, @ThreePointCircle
 
Yes, absolutely. Many times, because methylamine is so heavily regulated and watched, the clandestine chemist must produce their own methylamine. One common enough route to synthesizing methylamine is through a reaction involving Ammonium Chloride, Formaldehyde, and Chloroform (three of the best-smelling chemicals you could ever want, lol). Here's more info on that reaction: https://www.erowid.org/archive/rhodium/clandestine/methylamine/index.html

A side product of this methylamine synthesis, obviously enough, could easily be unconverted formaldehyde and it looks like MDDMA. Nice find, @ThreePointCircle
Ah very interesting, thanks for the link.

So we've got a couple of plausible ways that MDMA could be screwed up, and taking MDDMA as a maybe, a paper from my previous post highlighted impure methylamine as a source for MDDMA production, and then there's this formaldehyde route. What I'm interested to know is, how binary is doing a good job at MDMA synthesis? Is it either you're on top of your technique and use proper purification methods / or you produce trash? Or is it more of a continuum, with the amount of by-products/impurities being correlated with how bad the synth is?
 
What I'm interested to know is, how binary is doing a good job at MDMA synthesis? Is it either you're on top of your technique and use proper purification methods / or you produce trash? Or is it more of a continuum, with the amount of by-products/impurities being correlated with how bad the synth is?

Unodelacosa likely knows more than most, considering they claim to have bee involved in production in the 90s.

From what I understand from reading MAPS reports, it's a spectrum, and even with legalized and professional production routes, they've had to spend a lot of time mastering synthesis routes.
 
Ah very interesting, thanks for the link.

So we've got a couple of plausible ways that MDMA could be screwed up, and taking MDDMA as a maybe, a paper from my previous post highlighted impure methylamine as a source for MDDMA production, and then there's this formaldehyde route. What I'm interested to know is, how binary is doing a good job at MDMA synthesis? Is it either you're on top of your technique and use proper purification methods / or you produce trash? Or is it more of a continuum, with the amount of by-products/impurities being correlated with how bad the synth is?
Well so in both of these instances, you're talking about an impurity working its way into the synthesis via the side-synthesis of methylamine to be used in the reductive amination of the ketone intermediate, MDP-2-P (aka, PMK – piperonyl methyl ketone) to MDMA. There are different ways of accomplishing this. Personally, my favorite way was to form the methylamine in situ during an aluminum/mercuric chloride amalgamation reaction, the nitrogen atom donated by nitromethane for MDMA or nitroethane for MDE. Ammonia would technically be the choice for MDA, but I used an oxime intermediate route for this reaction because it was higher yielding, but I digress.

Usually methylamine synthesis involves the simultaneous synthesis of dimethylamine and trimethylamine, and these last two need to be separated from methylamine completely or they will introduce MDDMA and MDTMA—among potentially several other compounds— to the list of side-products produced. If this purification of methylamine is not carried out thoroughly and meticulously, inadvertent introduction of these impurities seems inevitable.

The trouble, as I see it, is that clandestine labs rarely make use of analytical tools to verify their syntheses' success, yield, and purity. So underground chemists are often in the dark as far as these matters are concerned. But before you going blaming the chemists for being lazy sociopathic miscreants, bear in mind these analytical tools are typically cost-prohibitive not to mention the fact that they will certainly draw unwanted attention if the feds catch wind of enough details. And as an added bonus, while the synthesis of methylamine is fairly straightforward, the stench that is put off from its manufacture cannot be understated. It is a powerfully noxious and nauseous odor that absolutely has to be dealt with in some fashion or it will attract attention as it truly smells like decomposing fish guts and whale flesh, or something along those lines, with a splash of chemical aroma just to make it really suspicious. So you can probably see where this poses several problems for the aspiring clandestine chemist.

To answer your question directly though, it is more of a continuum than a simple binary; however, some aspects of this are, themselves, binary in nature. For example, assuming MDDMA and MDMA interact in the brain the way we've guessed it might (shout-out to @indigoaura here), then it might not make much difference how much MDDMA is present just so long as it has covered a certain threshold that guarantees inhibition or 5-HT reuptake thus shutting down access to the 5-HT transporters for the MDMA that crossed the BBB. In order for MDMA to be active and do its thing, it must cross that transporter into the presynapse to trigger the massive flooding release of serotonin that is the hallmark of its effects. And it doesn't take much SSRI, for example, to blockade that action, so it's not unreasonable to consider that MDDMA might be the very same way with regards to cockblocking the effecstasy, as it were.
 
at a guess I would put it down to isomer if it tested positive via GC/MS.

MDMA's magic comes from the racemate mixture.

isomerically pure stuff sucks.

it is possible for those going through the hofmann to MDA and then methylation to MDMA

that they have a single isomer hence the test going positive as it is MDMA but

it still not being the same as a reductive alkylation of MDP2P

MDMA is a weird one like that and I think its the only amphet that is massively better as a racemate.

only way to tell would be chiral chromatography or via a polarimeter.
 
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Unodelacosa likely knows more than most, considering they claim to have bee involved in production in the 90s.

From what I understand from reading MAPS reports, it's a spectrum, and even with legalized and professional production routes, they've had to spend a lot of time mastering synthesis routes.
Hey I appreciate the shout-out, and btw I'm fine with "he/him" but good look on the progressive pronouns usage 🤜💥🤛

So a few things to add to what you're saying: the pharmaceutical industry will do research to master synthetic routes and discover the absolute most efficient synthesis possibly by running giant a/b and multivariate testing on every conceivable factor in a procedure, maximizing yields and purity along the way. So that part isn't surprising nor indicative of anything particularly challenging and inherent to the 3,4-methylenedioxymethamphetamine hydrochloride molecule and/or its isolated isomers.

What's more interesting is the story of how they've recently optimized the synthesis of psilocybin using cutting edge techniques in modern chemical engineering, especially considering how notoriously difficult its synthesis in the lab is.
 
at a guess I would put it down to isomer if it tested positive via GC/MS.

MDMA's magic comes from the racemate mixture.

isomerically pure stuff sucks.

it is possible for those going through the hofmann to MDA and then methylation to MDMA

that they have a single isomer hence the test going positive as it is MDMA but

it still not being the same as a reductive alkylation of MDP2P

MDMA is a weird one like that and I think its the only amphet that is massively better as a racemate.

only way to tell would be chiral chromatography or via a polarimeter.
Yeah except that's not really backed up by seized MDMA data analysis. See post #683 above from @Negi (shout-out for the data!): https://www.bluelight.org/xf/thread...-mdma-available-today-v2.895430/post-15235916

L.E. reports most seized MDMA as being racemic.

I completely agree with what you're saying regarding racemic MDMA being superior, btw, and have read about the potentiating effects the two isomers have on each other. However, clinically I understand there is interest in the isolated dextrorotatory isomer, the reducing of euphoric effects being pharmaceutically desirable.

The yields going from MDA to MDMA suck ass and you're basically just wasting a shitload of good MDA, from the clandestine chemist's perspective. I doubt many of them do this.

I think a more likely scenario is the one supported on this thread that says MDDMA is perhaps formed from reacting with formaldehyde and/or is introduced through using methylamine contaminated with dimethylamine during its clandestine production. And MDDMA would be hard to detect and delineate from MDE via GC-MS as it has the same atomic weight and nearly identical shape… ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

EDIT: oh and MDDMA has been shown to work as a 5-HT reuptake inhibitor under certain circumstances such as being paired with MDMA. The links are a few pages back in this thread…
 
To answer your question directly though, it is more of a continuum than a simple binary; however, some aspects of this are, themselves, binary in nature. For example, assuming MDDMA and MDMA interact in the brain the way we've guessed it might (shout-out to @indigoaura here), then it might not make much difference how much MDDMA is present just so long as it has covered a certain threshold that guarantees inhibition or 5-HT reuptake thus shutting down access to the 5-HT transporters for the MDMA that crossed the BBB. In order for MDMA to be active and do its thing, it must cross that transporter into the presynapse to trigger the massive flooding release of serotonin that is the hallmark of its effects. And it doesn't take much SSRI, for example, to blockade that action, so it's not unreasonable to consider that MDDMA might be the very same way with regards to cockblocking the effecstasy, as it were.

Obviously the test of what some of us are hypothesising is a good amount of reliable lab testing with the kind of methods that can detect and quantify MDDMA, or whatever the problem is, if it is there. But, I'm just trying to sort out whether a hypothesis I have is even remotely reasonable.

From my perspective, I've tried a different vendor each time I've bought, over 5 years, and all of the experiences have been lackluster (and very poor compared to when I did it years before). And the descriptions I've heard from others I know are pretty much identical experiences, even with new users. So the feeling I have is the the uk market, at least online, is all bad or near enough to that. The only way I can make sense of that is:

I saw a European report (sorry I didn't save the link) that gave the opinion that most European production was controlled by a small number of Dutch crime gangs (albeit at many production sites). Could this mean they are working to a production template and introducing a systematic impurity (e.g. MDDMA) which, although possibly variable, is consistently enough to exceed a threshold and cut of the MDMA experience?
 
Yeah except that's not really backed up by seized MDMA data analysis. See post #683 above from @Negi (shout-out for the data!): https://www.bluelight.org/xf/thread...-mdma-available-today-v2.895430/post-15235916

L.E. reports most seized MDMA as being racemic.

I completely agree with what you're saying regarding racemic MDMA being superior, btw, and have read about the potentiating effects the two isomers have on each other. However, clinically I understand there is interest in the isolated dextrorotatory isomer, the reducing of euphoric effects being pharmaceutically desirable.

The yields going from MDA to MDMA suck ass and you're basically just wasting a shitload of good MDA, from the clandestine chemist's perspective. I doubt many of them do this.

I think a more likely scenario is the one supported on this thread that says MDDMA is perhaps formed from reacting with formaldehyde and/or is introduced through using methylamine contaminated with dimethylamine during its clandestine production. And MDDMA would be hard to detect and delineate from MDE via GC-MS as it has the same atomic weight and nearly identical shape… ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

EDIT: oh and MDDMA has been shown to work as a 5-HT reuptake inhibitor under certain circumstances such as being paired with MDMA. The links are a few pages back in this thread…


there are many ways to methylate MDA some better than others.

just because the vespiary is having probs with does not mean that there is not a way.

try formamide of MDA then a vilsmeier reagent is formed from this and a zinc powder reduction.

or even the iodine borohydride reduction of the formamide of MDA.
 
To answer your question directly though, it is more of a continuum than a simple binary; however, some aspects of this are, themselves, binary in nature. For example, assuming MDDMA and MDMA interact in the brain the way we've guessed it might (shout-out to @indigoaura here), then it might not make much difference how much MDDMA is present just so long as it has covered a certain threshold that guarantees inhibition or 5-HT reuptake thus shutting down access to the 5-HT transporters for the MDMA that crossed the BBB. In order for MDMA to be active and do its thing, it must cross that transporter into the presynapse to trigger the massive flooding release of serotonin that is the hallmark of its effects. And it doesn't take much SSRI, for example, to blockade that action, so it's not unreasonable to consider that MDDMA might be the very same way with regards to cockblocking the effecstasy, as it were.

I don't think it is a simple binary, because MAPS detailed their difficulty and how even temperature changes in the room could throw off the synthesis. From their article, it did not sound like it was straight forward or binary, as they had a team of specialists and pure pre-cursors and they were having a hard time making a replicable set of steps for a consistent result. Scroll down to the graphic in the article to see info regarding how temperature impacted purity: https://maps.org/news/bulletin/arti...istry-of-mdma-from-research-to-patient-access

Also, I really cannot take credit for that MDDMA theory as it was detailed by researcher Walter Sandtner and then confirmed by him as being valid. So, based on in-vitro assays, a small amount of MDDMA would, in fact, block the action of MDMA.

I personally suspect there are multiple impurities with a blocking effect (as has been demonstrated in published research) and the problems that some people are noting may be due to various impurities or combinations of impurities. I would not be surprised if genetic variation plays a part in just how sensitive people are to the impurities, either due to methylation mutations, liver mutations, or otherwise.
 
there are many ways to methylate MDA some better than others.
Agreed.
just because the vespiary is having probs with does not mean that there is not a way.
Again, I agree, but I'm not basing my conjecture on the vespiary. I'm looking at published data like Basic and neutral route specific impurities in MDMA prepared by different synthesis methods Comparison of impurity profiles and Determination of synthesis method of ecstasy based on the basic impurities and I'm also basing it around my own experiences and take on manufacturing illicit MDMA, and maybe I'm way off here, perhaps I'm wrong, and perhaps you have some specific firsthand knowledge that I don't have into this happening, why and how it's so likely, etc., but from my vantage point? I just doubt it's very common for underground chemists to take a batch of perfectly good MDA and then methylate this to MDMA. I'd also like to point out the work of the DEA's own T.A. Dal Cason, An Evaluation of the Potential for Clandestine Manufacture of 3,4-Methylenedioxyamphetamine (MDA) Analogs and Homologs which, though dated now, is an intelligent insight into chemical possibilities w/r/t various psychoactive substances and the effects of their various substituted moieties at various locations, its impact on potency, and the likelihood and relative difficulty of clandestine production of same compounds.
try formamide of MDA then a vilsmeier reagent is formed from this and a zinc powder reduction.
I don't see much evidence pointing to a sudden wave in proliferation of the Vilsmeier-Haack reaction (nor Eschenmoser's salt for that matter), though I trust you on your convictions regarding its efficacy.
or even the iodine borohydride reduction of the formamide of MDA.
Regardless, does this not produce racemic MDMA?
 
at a guess I would put it down to isomer if it tested positive via GC/MS.

MDMA's magic comes from the racemate mixture.

isomerically pure stuff sucks.

it is possible for those going through the hofmann to MDA and then methylation to MDMA

that they have a single isomer hence the test going positive as it is MDMA but

it still not being the same as a reductive alkylation of MDP2P

MDMA is a weird one like that and I think its the only amphet that is massively better as a racemate.

only way to tell would be chiral chromatography or via a polarimeter.
Mate... have you read the thread?
 
Could this mean they are working to a production template and introducing a systematic impurity (e.g. MDDMA) which, although possibly variable, is consistently enough to exceed a threshold and cut of the MDMA experience?
I mean anything's possible of course but I highly doubt it. What would be the point anyway of all that effort? Doesn't make sense to me.

I'm not familiar with the U.K./Europe's dark net market scene, so can't say what that's like from experience. In the U.S., it's mostly been excellent MDMA since roughly 2016 from what I've seen. I guess I would continue to look far and wide for pure MDMA. Read up on purification techniques. You definitely should be capable of producing anhydrous acetone and then using that to rinse your MDMA clean. Also worth learning is how to recrystallize MDMA from boiling isopropyl alcohol. Perhaps experiment if you feel up to it?
 
there are many ways to methylate MDA some better than others.

just because the vespiary is having probs with does not mean that there is not a way.

try formamide of MDA then a vilsmeier reagent is formed from this and a zinc powder reduction.

or even the iodine borohydride reduction of the formamide of MDA.
Ruminating a bit further on this… what evidence is out there of clandestine operators manufacturing MDMA from MDA? Anyway, there are a bunch of ways around even the issue of how watched sassafras oil is… further reading…

I mean the thing is: one has to be willing to start from a beyond scratch, so to speak, but it's entirely possible to do this and stay off the radar completely. It's just HELLA TEDIOUS and the stakes are quite high.

Regarding perfect synthesis, what chemical engineers aim to do is optimize the algorithms running the machines that produce the end product. All purification techniques being equal and considered, the only thing this should affect is yield and purity is mostly determined by the skill of the clandestine operator at organic chem lab.
 
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