What is wrong with the MDMA available today? - v2

[ThreePointCircle]

I mean anything's possible of course but I highly doubt it. What would be the point anyway of all that effort? Doesn't make sense to me.

I don't mean purposely introducing the impurity, I mean that if the gangs came up with a quick and 'relatively' simple synth procedure that was more concerned with volume than quality, and then replicated to multiple sites, then I could see a proliferation of poorly synthesised product.

I'm not familiar with the U.K./Europe's dark net market scene, so can't say what that's like from experience. In the U.S., it's mostly been excellent MDMA since roughly 2016 from what I've seen. I guess I would continue to look far and wide for pure MDMA. Read up on purification techniques. You definitely should be capable of producing anhydrous acetone and then using that to rinse your MDMA clean. Also worth learning is how to recrystallize MDMA from boiling isopropyl alcohol. Perhaps experiment if you feel up to it?

Is your experience in the US from the dark markets? I got the impression from these two threads that its been creeping into the US over the last couple of years. I tried once (maybe twice?) ordering from US vendors but it was no better. I've heard from others on here that they can't find anything good on the US markets either. But, those that are finding good product seem to be mostly from the US, but I think they are buying locally, not online - I'm far from sure though.

I've tried acetone wash, AB extraction, and recrystallisation using isopropyl (there's a recent thread where I tried that). I may have rushed the recrystallisation, I'm not sure. It made it looks nicer but it performed the same in each case.

 

[prince_igor]

Mate... have you read the thread?

not all of it no sorry.

36 pages was a bit much so I read the question and answered.

sorry if I missed something.

 

[Negi]

36 pages was a bit much so I read the question and answered.

sorry if I missed something.

The information directly disproving your theory was literally on the exact page of the thread you made your post on. Did you really have zero curiosity about what the current state of the thread was, or what anyone else thought of the topic? It's getting pretty annoying to have people half read the thread title and then immediately do a drive by post.

 

[prince_igor]

why because you had some analysis to show that those pill were racemate.

does not prove that MDMA not could be isomerically pure and therefore give an effect

that is not inline with what people are used to.

Checking 97 samples seized in Germany from 2019-2020, MDMA was found to be extremely racemic.

I believe you are talking about.

97 samples hmmm.

I know that people have obtained and passed on optically pure substance from the hofmann reaction.

I also know that until much latter they did not know it was optically pure.

whether this is the case this time I don't know and never said 100% it was.

the optical purity changed in the substance I was aware of due to the move with china making

helional from catechol rather than hydroformylation of safrole.

I knew because some one at the factory in shanghai told me.

german gear is very differnt to the stuff we get.

If we see a europill it is sold for premium dollars.

I would think in germany as nitroethane is over the counter they would go through a henry condensation

then hydrolize to mdp2p.

that makes a racemate every time unless you do an optically pure reduction which I don't

know of any clandestine cook doing.

yep german gear is probably racemate.


finally when I posted the reply it was to the question so as I did not review all 36 pages

I did not read the last one where the post went to.

again I apologize.

but really what does 97 samples accross the whole worlds worth of ecstasy prove ?

still you are right I should have read the entire thread first I will not do that again.

 

[Negi]

but really what does 97 samples accross the whole worlds worth of ecstasy prove ?

97 samples across two years. Different form factors and batches.

MDMA specimens were seized either as tablets of various colors (n = 63), in crystalline form (n = 30), or as powder (n = 1). Some seizures contained both tablets and crystalline samples.

You might be aware of this, but the majority of the worlds MDMA is produced in Europe. I doubt every sample in the study was produced locally in Germany (or even the majority of them), the largest labs are in Belgium and NL. You can certainly find arrests where people are moving large quantities of MDMA across the border into Germany. Even the paper acknowledges this:

Amphetamine and MDMA on the German market originate mainly from the Netherlands, where it is synthesized from various non-pharmaceutical precursors

If you know how to read a box and whiskers plot, you can see how racemic all of the samples were. There aren't the outliers that would indicate the presence of even a single mildly enantiomeric sample. So yes, I think we can infer a few things about the racemic status of the mass market MDMA produced in Europe, especially the stuff produced in the labs located close to Germany that supply most of the world.

 

[prince_igor]

oh fuck it what am I trying to educate you for you know everything and obviously have been the industry

all your life.

 

[prince_igor]

MDMA Superlabs with Pictures (Follow on from Posters to make you stop taking E)

Something is wrong with this story. Are the police just trying to make themselves look effective, and not realizing their story doesn't make sense in the process? The story says the lab produced 100,000 pills per hour. They estimate that they produced, in total, up to 8,000,000 pills. That...

www.bluelight.org

mokbels labs made mdma

One of the largest MDMA labs ever uncovered in California - Shroomery News Service - Shroomery Message Board

Big ecstasy lab raided near Willits January 23, 2009 - PressDemocrat.com State and local law enforcement officials Friday seized a suspected ecstasy manufacturing lab northeast of Willits, calling

www.shroomery.org

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/breaking-bad-drug-lab-bust-600k-doses-of-ecstasy-found-in-mission-b-c-1.2762553

Alpena Twp. Woman Sentenced For Role In MDMA Drug Lab – WBKB 11

The second of two suspects has been sentenced after being convicted on charges related to...

www.wbkb11.com

Two men charged over 'sophisticated' Sydney drug lab

Bennett John Jolley and Belal Bill El Badar were manufacturing drugs worth millions of dollars at an industrial property in Moorebank, police allege.

www.smh.com.au

do I really have to find 97 refs it could be done but why bother.

the thing about chemistry you see is it can be practiced in any country.

of course now ive put up some refs I guess I can draw the conclusion that all mdma is not made in europe

as these refs say it is made else were.

the thing is the refs do not say anything about europe so even though I could say it I would be full of it.

so did that plot of yours tell about europe being the main producer in the world and that there studies

were definiative enough to draw that all MDMA is racemate.

yes the netherlands make a lot of mdma.

though they are far from the only producers.

europe is not the be all of drugs mate sorry but its just not the case.

to be honest ive only had a hand full of MDMA pills from europe.

though in my past I have seen a hell of a lot of it.

 

[psy997]

Are you still arguing without having gone back and read at least the first page of the thread, where two summaries of our research is summarized?

There is more evidence than the one piece of research that Negi is referencing that shows that isomers have nothing to do with the phenomenon and, that most MDMA is racemic.

 

[Negi]

do I really have to find 97 refs it could be done but why bother.

the thing about chemistry you see is it can be practiced in any country.

of course now ive put up some refs I guess I can draw the conclusion that all mdma is not made in europe

as these refs say it is made else were.

You don't need 97 refs, can you find a single non anecdotal ref that any of the labs you linked (or any labs anywhere) are producing enantiomeric MDMA?

 

[Tramalala]

why because you had some analysis to show that those pill were racemate.

does not prove that MDMA not could be isomerically pure and therefore give an effect

that is not inline with what people are used to.

Checking 97 samples seized in Germany from 2019-2020, MDMA was found to be extremely racemic.

I believe you are talking about.

97 samples hmmm.

I know that people have obtained and passed on optically pure substance from the hofmann reaction.

I also know that until much latter they did not know it was optically pure.

whether this is the case this time I don't know and never said 100% it was.

the optical purity changed in the substance I was aware of due to the move with china making

helional from catechol rather than hydroformylation of safrole.

I knew because some one at the factory in shanghai told me.

german gear is very differnt to the stuff we get.

If we see a europill it is sold for premium dollars.

I would think in germany as nitroethane is over the counter they would go through a henry condensation

then hydrolize to mdp2p.

that makes a racemate every time unless you do an optically pure reduction which I don't

know of any clandestine cook doing.

yep german gear is probably racemate.


finally when I posted the reply it was to the question so as I did not review all 36 pages

I did not read the last one where the post went to.

again I apologize.

but really what does 97 samples accross the whole worlds worth of ecstasy prove ?

still you are right I should have read the entire thread first I will not do that again.

Just want to say that I understand people don't want to read the whole thread, there is a lot of useless info too and a lot of repeating the same things. It's just a bit frustrating for the few of us that have read all of it and to keep seeing the same theories popping up that already have been debunked before.

But nonetheless thanks for bringing your thoughts on this topic to the thread! It's much appreciated.

Cheers!

 

[simstim]

i got 10 good mdma pills tonight. Took 2 and snorted 45mg BOD (excellent combo btw). I avoided this thread forever because I know there is still good MDMA out there and don't think griping is gonna help much if you can't find it. If you can't roll anymore something is going on for sure. Tolerance or your medication or something. MDMA definitely still good and around though. If MDMA not getting you there try 3 or 4 MMC, but I can say for sure good MDMA exists and I'm on some. lol.

 

[unodelacosa]

I've tried acetone wash, AB extraction, and recrystallisation using isopropyl (there's a recent thread where I tried that). I may have rushed the recrystallisation, I'm not sure. It made it looks nicer but it performed the same in each case.

I guess the next move up the purification ladder, so to speak, would be to run an analysis and identify all present compounds. Functionally, the next move would be liquid phase chromatography through a packed column. Either that or a fractional distillation of the freebase oil under a significant vacuum. The column certainly is easier to do logistically.

To me, I've seen no correlation between quality and location of source. I've found both fire-MDMA and weird analog donkey-rubbish that just feels like stimulant wonkiness, and I've found them both to be local and on the dark net markets. I suspect a common source for many local dealers is in fact the darknet markets, while at the same time the DNMs—or some semblance of same, w/r/t OPSEC technique—source their venders who get their wares from drug-producers/chemists & growers, or they're local dealers themselves looking to extend their marketplace beyond their local scene. There are numerous pros and cons to either, but I imagine there is a good deal of overlap between these markets, so I wouldn't necessarily give up on any particular avenue of pursuit, so to speak.

 

[ThreePointCircle]

I guess the next move up the purification ladder, so to speak, would be to run an analysis and identify all present compounds. Functionally, the next move would be liquid phase chromatography through a packed column. Either that or a fractional distillation of the freebase oil under a significant vacuum. The column certainly is easier to do logistically.

In a rush of experimental urges I did get myself a column and had a go. First time was a mess, second time was pretty good but I was very much in the dark as to what solvent system to use and how I would test the resulting fractions to know if I had separated things properly. I guess that if I could be confident that whatever in there would separate then I could simply use reagent tests to find the MDMA and ignore the rest, but I'm not the confident without having the original substance properly analysed.

At the moment my focus is on trying to find someone who is willing to perform an in depth analysis on samples sent to them. We know that the accessible labs like Energy Control can't (by their own admission) identify a range of impurities so I'm thinking of finding a willing researcher. The published papers we've been talking about on here go into a lot more depth profiling exactly what's in seized samples, often from a forensic perspective, and that would seem good enough to identify what is wrong was what I and others have got.

I'm going to try contacting a few researchers and see if any are willing to help. I'm struggling to quite come up with the best way to word the approach but I think I'm going to feature the harm reduction angle with the theory that bad product my have contributed to the proliferation of high strength pills (whether or not that is complete bs, I think it's a reasonable justification for at least looking at the problem).

 

[Negi]

At the moment my focus is on trying to find someone who is willing to perform an in depth analysis on samples sent to them. We know that the accessible labs like Energy Control can't (by their own admission) identify a range of impurities

From my understanding the issue with Energy Control was that their GCMS machines weren't set to the sensitivity level necessary to detect synthesis byproducts. If you have successfully separated them from the MDMA, that shouldn't be an issue.

 

[ThreePointCircle]

From my understanding the issue with Energy Control was that their GCMS machines weren't set to the sensitivity level necessary to detect synthesis byproducts. If you have successfully separated them from the MDMA, that shouldn't be an issue.

I'm no expert but I think it's a case of using the correct phase and then being able to interpret the final data correctly, rather than a sensitivity setting? Especially when the impurities have similarities with the MDMA (e.g. MDDMA).

Bottom line is, looking at the reports from Energy Control, Drugs Data, Wedinos, etc... they always report significantly fewer products than any of the papers we've looked at, that analysed seized samples. And I think in discussion with @indigoaura Energy Control said they weren't in a position to do a thorough analysis.

 

[Negi]

Bottom line is, looking at the reports from Energy Control, Drugs Data, Wedinos, etc... they always report significantly fewer products than any of the papers we've looked at, that analysed seized samples. And I think in discussion with @indigoaura Energy Control said they weren't in a position to do a thorough analysis.

That's because they weren't checking at the sensitivity level that those compounds are found at. I found the comment where indigoaura mentioned it.

The issue is that we do not know which impurities are present in the meh samples in comparison to the magic samples because the recreational labs like Drugs Data and IEC are not testing at that level of detail. I am not just hypothesizing this. International Energy Control has told me in writing that they do not usually run the machines at the sensitivity level required to identify byproducts left in the product. If I want that type of analysis run, they will have to change the settings on the machines.

I'm curious, what amount of MDMA did you run through your column and how large are the different fractions you got out?

 

[ThreePointCircle]

That's because they weren't checking at the sensitivity level that those compounds are found at. I found the comment where indigoaura mentioned it.

Ah nice find. I'm still not convinced its a matter of a sensitivity setting issue though (or just that), but maybe I'm wrong. Was it them, or Drugs Data, who were talking about the need of buying reference standards for every impurity they wanted to test for? Anyway, ultimately they're aren't producing the detail we need at the moment. Hopefully that will change. If these places did then @Le Junk would have got the info right at the beginning of the first thread.

I'm curious, what amount of MDMA did you run through your column and how large are the different fractions you got out?

I can't remember now. I think I started with something like 2g, extracted the freebase and then put that through the column. I basically kept putting solvent through the column and used small test tubes. Problem is, everything was colourless so I couldn't eyeball any transitions. My idea was to add HCL to each test tube to form a solution of the salt (if MDMA was present), evapourate each, and then any crystal that appeared test with reagents (with the assumption that the one testing as MDMA would now only contain MDMA). I didn't follow it all the way through though because I felt I was in the dark too much about what I was doing. I don't even know if that was a sensible way to do it, and whether my solvent was a good choice.

I'm happy to give it another go, but I always feel I'm behind the curve on things like this. For example, the recrystallisation I did recently made a lot of sense as a procedure but didn't change the product. I'm pretty sure I did it too fast but it could be that the MDMA and impurity co-crystallises so that method won't work (I believe I'm saying this right).

 

[unodelacosa]

i got 10 good mdma pills tonight. Took 2 and snorted 45mg BOD (excellent combo btw). I avoided this thread forever because I know there is still good MDMA out there and don't think griping is gonna help much if you can't find it. If you can't roll anymore something is going on for sure. Tolerance or your medication or something. MDMA definitely still good and around though. If MDMA not getting you there try 3 or 4 MMC, but I can say for sure good MDMA exists and I'm on some. lol.

Exactly.

Don't tell me this town ain't got no heart… you just gotta look around.

However, 3-MMC and 4-MMC, both, are separate chemicals probably best if not solely considered as "an alternative to MDMA" as they are their own things. Don't get me wrong—I really do appreciate a good Cathinone derivative, but it's important to note they mostly work as reuptake inhibitors, not releasing agents [EDIT/correction: oops, no, I was wrong about this; it happens that 4-MMC is indeed a more potent RA than RI, as corrected below courtesy of @simstim, sorry about that, folks!], and this is paramount to MDMA having its distinct effect.

 

[simstim]

Exactly.

Don't tell me this town ain't got no heart… you just gotta look around.

However, 3-MMC and 4-MMC, both, are separate chemicals probably best if not solely considered as "an alternative to MDMA" as they are their own things. Don't get me wrong—I really do appreciate a good Cathinone derivative, but it's important to note they mostly work as reuptake inhibitors, not releasing agents, and this is paramount to MDMA having its distinct effect.

Cathinones which are both alpha methyl and are usually either primary or secondary amines (methcathinone, 4-MMC, bk-MDMA, cathinone, etc.) will act like non beta keto amphetamine counterparts as releasing agents. Generally only certain substituted cathinones that have long alpha side chains and/or pyrole rings are going to be the reuptake inhibitors. Drugs like MDPV, PVP, MDPPP, Pentedrone, etc.

The actual stucture of cathinone is beta keto amphetamine and it is a releasing agent. Calling other drugs which are technically not amphetamines by virtue of not even being "alpha methyl" by the name "cathinone" is a bit misleading because it's structure is not technically that of bk-amphetamine. It would be better to call these chemicals substituted beta keto phenethylamines in my opinion but they are generally referred to as substituted cathinones instead.

3 and 4-MMC are both triple releasing agents like MDMA. If you want references just tell me as they're very easy to find. If you can't source MDMA or even if MDMA isn't working anymore 3 and 4 MMC more than fit the bill of replacement for me. I agree they feel a bit unique compared to MDMA but believe me they are both a very intense roll and certainly nothing at all like the reuptake inhibitors like MDPV and whatnot. Completely different class of drugs, despite both being substituted beta keto phenethylamines.

 

[simstim]

Also it's considered by many that the feel of MDMA isn't necessarily that unique and many drugs will substitute in animals. Just some food for thought. Please Don't poopoo cathinone triple releasers without trying them just because you've heard others do so. True they are distinguishably different from MDMA the effects can be on par with and even in a few cases may surpass the feeling of MDMA despite being a bit different. I think certainly bk-MDMA and 4-MMC have earned a special place in history on their own and are likely to continue to exist even in illegal markets at this point.