What is human nature? v. And are we innately evil?

[Gnostic Bishop]

And yet I presented evidence otherwise. Humans are capable of it under certain conditions. That seems evident. You don't have to accept it however.

My opinion is that we are not inherently evil but rather weak and fear driven. When conditions exist where fear and weakness are not prominent due to circumstance we can work together in peace without leaders. We can lead ourselves in concert with others. I do believe however that modern man has lost the battle with fear and weakness and it will very likely mean our end along with much of the current life on earth.

Pie in the sky.
You have not produced any evidence of any community that does not have leadership or a hierarchy.

Even the smallest community of one man and one wife is a hierarchy even if the leadership role changes.

Regards
DL

 

[Nixiam]

All people on earth have been wiped out except two men. That is the last of society. Both men have equal attributes and the same personality, and both are the drop of a pen from being dead.

These last two beings form society, and neither is its leader nor in any position to form a hierachy.

Maybe that?

 

[Cosmic Trigger]

I think one could come up with several examples of such happening.

 

[Cosmic Trigger]

Pie in the sky.
You have not produced any evidence of any community that does not have leadership or a hierarchy.

Even the smallest community of one man and one wife is a hierarchy even if the leadership role changes.

Regards
DL

Then why in the fuck did it state this?

The Penan's society is egalitarian and non-hierarchical. Traditionally, they depend entirely on the forest for their existence, their culture and their belief

 

[Nixiam]

Evidence

Egal for the win

 

[tantric]

I don't know where to begin either with a guy who ignores all the science and mainstream religions that agree with evolution and the big bang.

i have no idea what you mean by this. most science supports the big bang all some form of evolution, of course. but what mainstream religions do? aren't all christian, jewish and muslim religions based on divine revelation, via whatever book? most buddhists do - we're expected to accept anything scientifically proven.

As to what I mean with the word instincts. Try Webster's Dictionary. I do not redefine words that are already well described.

I did not see anything listed for the non-hierarchical primate you hinted at. Care to list it?

Regards
DL

noun
1an inborn pattern of activity or tendency to action common to a given biological species.

how do you get that humans don't have these?

Meantime, we find that in anger the brows are wrinkled, the face ordinarily crimson, the veins gorged and prominent, the nostrils dilated, the lips drawn back and the teeth set, the hands clenched, the body tense, and the voice harsh. In extreme fear we meet with pallor and trembling, spasm of the heart, diarrhoea, the appearance of goose-flesh, cold sweat, bristling of the hair, dryness of the mouth, choking, paralysis of the voice, or hoarse screaming, together with tendencies to flight, coupled with a feeling of weakness. These reactions are called out precisely as the instinctive reactions in animals, i. e., by the presence of appropriate stimuli. So far as consciousness is involved in them, the striking thing is the headlong fashion in which we find ourselves plunged into a vortex of intense impulsive feeling, compelling us to acts the consequences of which, in their first expressions, anyhow, are wholly unforeseen.

as for the nonhierarchical primate, offhand - orangutans

Orangutans live a more solitary lifestyle than the other great apes. Most social bonds occur between adult females and their dependent and weaned offspring. Adult males and independent adolescents of both sexes tend to live alone.[34] Orangutan societies are made up of resident and transient individuals of both sexes. Resident females live with their offspring in defined home ranges that overlap with those of other adult females, which may be their immediate relatives. One to several resident female home ranges are encompassed within the home range of a resident male, who is their main mating partner.[35]

Transient males and females move widely.[34] Orangutans usually travel alone, but they may travel in small groups in their subadult years. However, this behaviour ends at adulthood. The social structure of the orangutan can be best described as solitary but social. Interactions between adult females range from friendly to avoidance to antagonistic. Resident males may have overlapping ranges and interactions between them tend to be hostile.[35]

During dispersal, females tend to settle in home ranges that overlap with their mothers. However, they do not seem to have any special social bonds with them.[36] Males disperse much farther from their mothers and enter into a transient phase. This phase lasts until a male can challenge and displace a dominant, resident male from his home range.[37] Adult males dominate sub-adult males.[38]

Both resident and transient orangutans aggregate on large fruiting trees to feed. The fruits tend to be abundant, so competition is low and individuals may engage in social interactions.[35] Orangutans will also form travelling groups with members moving between different food sources.[37] These groups tend to be made of only a few individuals. They also tend to be consortships between an adult male and female.[35]

oh, and the Pirahã people

As far as the Pirahã have related to researchers, their culture is concerned solely with matters that fall within direct personal experience, and thus there is no history beyond living memory. Pirahã have a simple kinship system that includes baíxi (parent, grandparent, or elder), xahaigí (sibling, male or female), hoagí or hoísai (son), kai (daughter), and piihí (stepchild, favorite child, child with at least one deceased parent, and more).[4] (pp86–87)

Daniel Everett states that one of the strongest Pirahã values is no coercion; you simply don't tell other people what to do.[5] There appears to be no social hierarchy; the Pirahã have no formal leaders. Their social system can thus be labeled as primitive communism, in common with many other hunter-gatherer bands in the world, although rare in the Amazon because of a history of agriculture before Western contact (see history of the Amazon).

 

[Gnostic Bishop]

Then why in the fuck did it state this?

As I said above, many have become Muslin and subjugate themselves to an imam. That is a hierarchy.

i have no idea what you mean by this. most science supports the big bang all some form of evolution, of course. but what mainstream religions do? aren't all christian, jewish and muslim religions based on divine revelation, via whatever book? most buddhists do - we're expected to accept anything scientifically proven.

In the past, yes.

Today.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-447930/Pope-Benedict-believes-evolution.html

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart...cept-evolution-and-big-bang-180953166/?no-ist

noun
1an inborn pattern of activity or tendency to action common to a given biological species.

how do you get that humans don't have these?



as for the nonhierarchical primate, offhand - orangutans

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orangutan

"Dominant adult males have distinctive cheek pads"

If they have dominant males, then their is a hierarchy. Right?


oh, and the Pirahã people

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pirahã_people

Pirahã have a simple kinship system that includes baíxi (parent, grandparent, or elder), xahaigí (sibling, male or female), hoagí or hoísai (son), kai (daughter), and piihí (stepchild, favorite child, child with at least one deceased parent, and more).

Kinship is described as, --- "These social ends include the socialization of children and the formation of basic economic, political and religious groups."

To my way of thinking, kinship show a deference to the elders, then parents etc. I define that as a hierarchy.

Regards
DL

 

[tantric]

no - because they NEVER tell each other what to do. that's what hierarchy is about - who orders who around.

 

[Gnostic Bishop]

no - because they NEVER tell each other what to do. that's what hierarchy is about - who orders who around.

Parents do not tell their children what to do!

Ok.

Regards
DL

 

[Cosmic Trigger]

As I said above, many have become Muslin and subjugate themselves to an imam. That is a hierarchy.

Boy are you scrambling to be right IMO. Two things are wrong with your above statement. First they had not been living with a hierarchy for a long period before any conversion to whatever religion has been forced down their throats in recent times and secondly not all have converted. So my point remains.

 

[Nixiam]

Hey man, he has evidence of non hierarchical society^

Less an agument can be made how it isn't truly hierarchical, which at that point would be twisting definitions.

 

[Gnostic Bishop]

Boy are you scrambling to be right IMO. Two things are wrong with your above statement. First they had not been living with a hierarchy for a long period before any conversion to whatever religion has been forced down their throats in recent times and secondly not all have converted. So my point remains.

Your point is refuted just by the fact that people recognize kinship and the hierarchies they produce.

I am better served by being wrong, as then I learn something.

I was hoping you would have something to teach me but I do not see it as yet.

Do you respect your elders etc. and does that not make even you family elders a part of your social hierarchy?

Regards
DL

Nixiam

"Less an augment can be made how it isn't truly hierarchical, which at that point would be twisting definitions."

I do not twist the definition.

I just bring it down to the components of any social hierarchy, the individual and how he interacts with the family. And then I add in all the families along with their political and religious views and it is easy then to see that all the individuals look to either a chief or shaman for guidance.

The only way man would not live in a hierarchy, is to rid ourselves of the help of others when born. The fact that we are so helpless at birth, forces us to rely on others and be a part of a hierarchy right from birth.

Regards
DL

 

[Cosmic Trigger]

No I do not respect my elders at all and never have unless forced to pretend. I respect the truth. You better explain your first sentence better and give examples because to me it sounds like obfuscation.

 

[Nixiam]

Your point is refuted just by the fact that people recognize kinship and the hierarchies they produce.

I am better served by being wrong, as then I learn something.

I was hoping you would have something to teach me but I do not see it as yet.

Do you respect your elders etc. and does that not make even you family elders a part of your social hierarchy?

Regards
DL

Nixiam

"Less an augment can be made how it isn't truly hierarchical, which at that point would be twisting definitions."

I do not twist the definition.

I just bring it down to the components of any social hierarchy, the individual and how he interacts with the family. And then I add in all the families along with their political and religious views and it is easy then to see that all the individuals look to either a chief or shaman for guidance.

The only way man would not live in a hierarchy, is to rid ourselves of the help of others when born. The fact that we are so helpless at birth, forces us to rely on others and be a part of a hierarchy right from birth.

Regards
DL

Right from birth dependence is a necessity, yes. Non hierarchical doesn't mean every man for himself. A child HAS to have help, doesn't mean he doesn't have as many rights to go about how he wants.

So as long as there are children there is a hierarchy? What if the parents don't tell children what to do, as the children simply watch eachother and follow what typically happens, and parents only give help when needed? Even the act of helping a person whom has every right to go and do something on their own demands the title of "hierarchy"?

 

[Gnostic Bishop]

No I do not respect my elders at all and never have unless forced to pretend. I respect the truth. You better explain your first sentence better and give examples because to me it sounds like obfuscation.

A question might clear it up for you when you answer it.

Did you always disrespect your elders and not do as bid by them?

You, like most, likely did head them to some extent That would place you below them in the hierarchy you grew up in.

You would have been under the same compulsion with bosses and your government.

Regards
DL

Nixiam

"children simply watch each other and follow what typically happens,"

Often, yes. But note that when you follow another, you are in a hierarchical chain with some above you that you emulate and some behind or below you who will emulate you.

Somewhere, in whatever you are following, their is one who has set the pattern that you follow.

"They found that different brain areas are activated when a person moves up or down in a pecking order".

https://www.nih.gov/news-events/news-releases/human-brain-appears-hard-wired-hierarchy


If we did not have minds that seek our position in the hierarchy, such results could not be found.

Regards
DL

 

[tantric]

by your logic, any species that cares for its young is hierarchical - but that is not what is meant by a hierarchical social system. i'm talking about dominance hierarchy in the context of animal behavior.

Dominance hierarchy arises when members of a social group interact, often aggressively, to create a ranking system. In social living groups, members are likely to compete for access to limited resources and mating opportunities. Rather than fight each time they meet, relative relationships are formed between members of the same sex. These repetitive interactions lead to the creation of a social order that is subject to change each time a dominant animal is challenged by a subordinate one.

 

[Gnostic Bishop]

by your logic, any species that cares for its young is hierarchical - but that is not what is meant by a hierarchical social system. i'm talking about dominance hierarchy in the context of animal behavior.

From you.
"These repetitive interactions lead to the creation of a social order that is subject to change each time a dominant animal is challenged by a subordinate one."

A subordinate animal or human does not challenge another unless there is a prize. The prize is to become the dominant one in the hierarchy that produces the subordinate one in the first place.

Subordinate and dominant indicate a hierarchy.

Regards
DL

 

[tantric]

yes, but parents and children are not a part of that. i'm talking science - ethology, . yes, parents controlling their offspring is a hierarchy in the lay sense. but it is NOT a dominance hierarchy in the technical sense. for one thing - who is dominant, parent or child? you think the parent, guess again. the parent is a machine for making offspring, and it will do whatever is required of it to do so. children are a nightmare burden - one that drastically decreases your basic survival fitness. but we don't, can't look at them like that. we don't say 'wow, what a messy noisy useless hunk of flesh that fell out of my vagina, take it away, kill it with fire'. nope - those hormones kick in and you are the rugrat's slave.

 

[Nixiam]

Thus a different kind of Oxy is made. No not Oxycodone, but Oxytocin.

 

[tantric]

it is way past time for some recreational drugs that target that receptor