What is human nature? v. And are we innately evil?

[Nixiam]

Just to clarify, I was paraphrasing an argument that peaked my interest from the vegan thread a while back.

Do I believe humans are altruistic? I dunno. Altruism comes from our ability to tell right from wrong, and that ability, I believe, is warped right now... evidently. Us not knowing what right and wrong is will always be an argument, but I think intlelectuals have a pretty good idea.

Do I think any animal with evolved conciousness and ability like us would be doomed to the same self destructive behavior? Probably not.

 

[Gnostic Bishop]

Just to clarify, I was paraphrasing an argument that peaked my interest from the vegan thread a while back.

Do I believe humans are altruistic? I dunno. Altruism comes from our ability to tell right from wrong, and that ability, I believe, is warped right now... evidently. Us not knowing what right and wrong is will always be an argument, but I think intlelectuals have a pretty good idea.

Do I think any animal with evolved conciousness and ability like us would be doomed to the same self destructive behavior? Probably not.

I do not agree.

What is our first and instinct and duty to our species? To reproduce right?

We, like any animal, will do so if we can.

When our environment, as in the days of the city states with finite resources, forces us to reduce or control our reproduction, we will.

Regards
DL

 

[Xorkoth]

Actually, very few animals have a sense of self. Few will examine themselves or recognize themselves in a mirror, which is one of the main tests if I recall correctly. It is a fairly unique trait, but yes, most sentient animals do think in some rudimentary way.

I don't buy the extreme reliance on the mirror test. It could easily just be that most animals are not intelligent enough to be able to abstract the idea of seeing the animal in the mirror as themselves, but still are having a conscious experience and an understanding that they are an entity separate from other entities.

 

[Gnostic Bishop]

I don't buy the extreme reliance on the mirror test. It could easily just be that most animals are not intelligent enough to be able to abstract the idea of seeing the animal in the mirror as themselves, but still are having a conscious experience and an understanding that they are an entity separate from other entities.

I agree and am sure they do. But that is not self-awareness as science describes it.

http://www.world-of-lucid-dreaming.com/10-animals-with-self-awareness.html

"Self awareness is a measure of intelligence in the animal kingdom. ... Of the hundreds of animals tested so far, only 10 animals (to date) have been proven to have any measurable degree of self awareness. ... Animals that fail the mirror test appear to assume the reflection is just another ..."

Regards
DL

 

[Xorkoth]

Right but I'm saying, just because they can't process that their reflection is themselves (a rather abstract concept, really) doesn't necessarily indicate a total lack of sense of self.

The mirror test certainly indicates a certain higher level of intelligence, though, a higher level of self-awareness even. But in my opinion it's not an either/or.

 

[Nixiam]

I do not agree.

What is our first and instinct and duty to our species? To reproduce right?

We, like any animal, will do so if we can.

When our environment, as in the days of the city states with finite resources, forces us to reduce or control our reproduction, we will.

Regards
DL

I'm having trouble connecting your post to mine What do you disagree with?

 

[Gnostic Bishop]

I'm having trouble connecting your post to mine What do you disagree with?

You said. "Do I think any animal with evolved conciousness and ability like us would be doomed to the same self destructive behavior? Probably not."

That I do not agree with.

How do you see a self-destruction when the population is still rising and we are mostly all being sustained by the environment and have not really felt the squeeze from what we have done to our environment?

We still have plenty of leeway and have not really felt any hardship in sustaining ourselves so far.

Regards
DL

 

[Nixiam]

Because us in the first world haven't felt strain does not mean it isn't self destructive. I fail to see why factory farms and land abuse, not to mention nuclear war and inappropriate waste disposal aren't self destructive.

Humans have a way of not learning from their mistakes, or not in time. Not saying we won't, but I merely feel another evolved being possibly won't fuck up like we do.

I think an immediate step up in evolutionary concious organisms from non concious organisms would do better than we, for they would probably have an immediate historical understanding of truly primitive, non self aware struggle. We hardly know our own history. What did the first humans record of they're predecessors?

Nothing iirc.

 

[tantric]

one of the classic tests for self awareness is the mirror test. the animal is exposed to a mirror, then a dot is put on the animal's head. if it reaches for the dot somehow, it understands the mirror. this works on the great apes, but when it was first tried on dolphins......the two in the tank promptly positioned themselves before the mirror and started having sex while watching themselves.

 

[Gnostic Bishop]

Because us in the first world haven't felt strain does not mean it isn't self destructive. I fail to see why factory farms and land abuse, not to mention nuclear war and inappropriate waste disposal aren't self destructive.

Humans have a way of not learning from their mistakes, or not in time. Not saying we won't, but I merely feel another evolved being possibly won't fuck up like we do.

I think an immediate step up in evolutionary concious organisms from non concious organisms would do better than we, for they would probably have an immediate historical understanding of truly primitive, non self aware struggle. We hardly know our own history. What did the first humans record of they're predecessors?

Nothing iirc.

Mankind is the step up in evolutionary concious organisms from non concious organisms so I cannot see why you would think another species would do better than we are. We are following our instinct to reproduce and you would have us try to control reproduction when, world wide, there is no need to do so. As yet.

one of the classic tests for self awareness is the mirror test. the animal is exposed to a mirror, then a dot is put on the animal's head. if it reaches for the dot somehow, it understands the mirror. this works on the great apes, but when it was first tried on dolphins......the two in the tank promptly positioned themselves before the mirror and started having sex while watching themselves.

Animal porn.

Just do not give them our modern technology or it will screw up their young males like it is doing to ours.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=sgAu1i6aChs

Talk about going off topic.

Regards
DL

 

[Nixiam]

What say we told another evolved species how we fucked up, or they saw for themselves?

 

[Ninae]

This could be approached in many ways.

You could say the higher, spiritual, self is good and the lower, wordly, self is evil. Or the ID/Unconsciousness is evil, the Ego/Consciousness something in between, and the Superconsciousness good.

"Evil" in humans is more instinctive and when we're divorced from our higher self. Then there's a lot of potential for evil, like violence and crime, rape, etc.

 

[Gnostic Bishop]

So many with half empty glasses who ignore that it is half full.

Check any of the stats for what most consider evil and you will note that we are enjoying a decline in all evil sectors.

Death by violence including war, criminality, hunger and poverty and slavery. Just to name a few.

Regards
DL

 

[Nixiam]

Yes, we are losing our primitive, disgusting traits. But we can still improve, many more people can be helped, and I'm sure that if you were a starving child in a third world country, you'd feel the same. Especially when that child is starving because of us.

America is 5% of the population and 25% of the world's resource consumers.

 

[belligerent drunk]

Especially when that child is starving because of us..

I wouldn't say that they're starving because of us, but rather that they could be not starving if we were to take appropriate action. We do not take away their food, but we could provide it if we felt like it.

 

[Nixiam]

The United Nations needs to get on that shit.

 

[Gnostic Bishop]

Yes, we are losing our primitive, disgusting traits. But we can still improve, many more people can be helped, and I'm sure that if you were a starving child in a third world country, you'd feel the same. Especially when that child is starving because of us.

America is 5% of the population and 25% of the world's resource consumers.

Yes but it is our consumption that is fueling the world economies and if we stop, all the other countries will lose jobs and more people will suffer.

You do know about balance of trade I hope. Every product we consume likely has parts and pieces from a dozen countries.

Regards
DL

I wouldn't say that they're starving because of us, but rather that they could be not starving if we were to take appropriate action. We do not take away their food, but we could provide it if we felt like it.

It is not so much feeling like it. It is mostly an issue of logistics and corruption in the target nation.

Regards
DL

The United Nations needs to get on that shit.

They are too busy giving the worse human rights offenders power in their human rights tribunal.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=UTdKxCz2FIQ

Regards
DL

 

[tantric]

What say we told another evolved species how we fucked up, or they saw for themselves?

we show them all the videos of firemen running into burning buildings to save cats, and they forgive us. besides, i talk to ultraterrestrials often - they are far more upset by what passes for pop culture

 

[swilow]

I feel like this quote is pertinent, there is a chance it has already been posted:

“Human life must be some kind of mistake. The truth of this will be sufficiently obvious if we only remember that man is a compound of needs and necessities hard to satisfy; and that even when they are satisfied, all he obtains is a state of painlessness, where nothing remains to him but abandonment to boredom. This is direct proof that existence has no real value in itself; for what is boredom but the feeling of the emptiness of life? If life—the craving for which is the very essence of our being—were possessed of any positive intrinsic value, there would be no such thing as boredom at all: mere existence would satisfy us in itself, and we should want for nothing.”

Emphasis mine. I don't think humans will ever attain anything as imperial and lustrous as evil. Its the base and accidental that define human.

 

[Cosmic Trigger]

Schopenhauer is the man.