What evolutionary reason does the poppy have for producing morphine/other opioids?

[smackem]

Then you've missed the point of why plant produce alkaloids in the first place. It's not a disadvantage. It's an evolutionary advantage.

Well, it is now that humans cultivate it, but what about before that? Why is it an advatange? (Besides the fact that humans now cultivate them.)

 

[New]

Well, it is now that humans cultivate it, but what about before that? Why is it an advatange? (Besides the fact that humans now cultivate them.)

Heroin tastes horrible. A heroin molecule is simply two morphine molecules bound together. By association, morphine would taste horrible. Would you in your right mind EAT something that tasted that horrible, especially in its natural state with all that plant matter to work through as well?

 

[Captain.Heroin]

Heroin tastes lovely, though I will admit it's a taste not everyone can love.

 

[stringtheory]

Then you've missed the point of why plant produce alkaloids in the first place. It's not a disadvantage. It's an evolutionary advantage.





Anyway, everything is an accident.

That is certainly one view. But you can look at things from the perspective that everything is an accident or that nothing is. And I don't mean that from a religious standpoint so much as a mechanical one.

If you look at the earth and the solar system and beyond as a machine with interdependent parts and functions, the universe in general and this planet in particular began to look a bit different. The real interesting point is what Cane pointed out, and that is the lock/key scenario. Having a form of morphine produced by a plant in nature is a wonder unto itself, but to have the same basic chemical as well as the receptors for it produced in our own brains certainly complicates the connection.

 

[New]

That's ridiculously mindblowing. You'd be doing calculation after calculation using the basic building blocks of the universe as your variables...oh. I get it.

 

[ghostbalm]

The most obvious answer seems to be the taste of the alkaloid. IMHO it's possible that the plant initially produced a completely different alkaloid that just tasted awful, and over time, various mutations caused it to produce something psychoactive. Nasty taste + nausea & sedation is obviously a deterrent superior to nasty taste alone.

But honestly, there's no real way to know. Perhaps the stuff serves some unknown dual or triple purpose in the internal chemistry of the plant, or perhaps, because of other chemistry taking place in the plant, this stuff is the easier to make than other alkaloids that wouldn't benefit the plant as much. Why do humans produce dopamine? Why not use aspirin as a neurotransmitter instead? It's just not the evolutionary path we took, and the reasons for it are far too complex for anyone here to fully consider.

 

[kidamnesiac]

^yep, mostly. it is impossible to speculate on.

as said, there are thousands of shitty tasting molecules, morphine is mighty complex to make to just taste bad.

It is possible that they are some sort of signaling molecule that the entire papavaer genus uses as most of them make complex morphine-like molecules.

Also, it may be possible that it serves some invaluable function for forming the latex that is excreted when the pod is scratched or punctured. Then again, that latex sure tastes shitty.

@Samael-where the hell did you come up with heroin is two morphine molecules linked together? it is diacetyl morphine, a morphine with two acetyl groups on the hydroxyls of morphine. people here tend to believe the mods above others so please don't go espousing off misinformation.

 

[blau1005]

as said, there are thousands of shitty tasting molecules

I don't know why, but I lol'd. Maybe it was just the use of a colloquial adjective to make a scientific point

 

[garuda]

A corollary that might help this make sense is the hot pepper genus, capsacin developed because it gave the plants with it an evolutionary advantage, it made their fruit and seeds unpalatable to mammals specifically rodents.

Therefore birds would consume more of their fruit and seeds, and birds would consume the seeds whole and defecate them out whole helping to spread the high capsacin genes. Rodents chew up seeds, rodents eating your seed doesn't spread your genes. Give it millions of years and the plants with genes for no capsacin die out.

Eventually humans discover they enjoy the sensation of capsacin and they use selective breeding to sky rocket the capsacin content beyond what would evolve naturally. This is basically the story of somniferum, the only missing puzzle piece with somniferum is we have never found a surviving wild ancestor poppy.

 

[New]

@Samael-where the hell did you come up with heroin is two morphine molecules linked together? it is diacetyl morphine, a morphine with two acetyl groups on the hydroxyls of morphine. people here tend to believe the mods above others so please don't go espousing off misinformation.

Well. Thank you for correcting me.:D

I appreciate that you took the time to do that.

The chemical structure name makes more sense in my head now after you put it like that.

 

[a100unitSHOT]

Just like THC in weed, psilosybin in shrooms, mescaline in the cactus, and poisons in other plants, etc... it's supposed to act as protection from animals eating it. Humans are like the only exception when it comes down to the fact that if most animals ate one of these plants, and they experienced its effects, they wouldn't eat it again.

 

[CretiNation]

the bitter alkaloid taste and intoxicating effects are very strong negative reinforcers. the effects decrease an organisms chance of survival by predation or OD. human cultivation of the plant has helped it survive.

none of these reasons are mutually exclusive of each other. so i don't understand why people are making an argument about this. the plant has probably been around far, FAR longer than humans have ever been.

i think it is SO cool to imagine the unknown amount of proto-poppy plants that the modern poppy is descended from. they would have had not quite as complex biosynthetic processes as making morphine and i can only imagine the precursors that nature produced that led up to the biosynthesis of morphine. and of course the plants that developed mutations that changed the metabolic pathway so instead of morphine or codeine, made molecules just not quite good enough at stopping them from being eaten by animals. after all, 99.9% of all species that have ever existed on this planet have gone extinct (or evolved into what is here as i write this).

 

[smackem]

the bitter alkaloid taste and intoxicating effects are very strong negative reinforcers. .

I am pretty sure morphine is a postitive reinforcer. There are ALL KINDS of self administration studies with morphine and mammals do self administer it.

 

[johanneschimpo]

^ When you're a wild animal, you don't want to eat the plant thats going to make you nod while a lion bites your head off. That is not the best way to live and produce offspring. Animals self-administering morphine in captivity (aka total safety) is a different idea. You have to look at it in a very broad sense, and also forget the "omg I love morphine lol" part.

 

[garuda]

I am pretty sure morphine is a postitive reinforcer. There are ALL KINDS of self administration studies with morphine and mammals do self administer it.

I suggest you google "rat park", read the articles.

Basically it was a study that asked what happens when instead of being kept isolated in a tiny boring cage, rats are kept in a large enviroment with many other rats and lots of room for exploring and searching for food.
Turns out when rats have a interesting enviroment with other rats to socialize with they do not compulsively self administer morphine, they prefer regular water instead of morphine water.

Some food for thought.

 

[Bojangles69]

I've had an evolutionary psych and an evolutionary bio class and Id be so curious to hear what my professors would say.
But Ill put it this way, anytime a student had a "theory" the professor would falsify the theory in about 2 seconds.
I have to say till this day the evo psych class was the most mind blowing class Ive ever taken, its like I learned SO MUCH but I actually didnt learn anything.

But I do recall a lot of talk about how the environment weeds out traits of the gene. A variety of genes are produced and certain ones "accidentally" survive due to the relative random climate/condition of the environment.
You also NEVER just look at one trait which is what a lot of you are doing.

This may have nothing to do with the alkaloids in the plant but the general growing behavoir of the plant. Every knows poppies grows rampid like a weed in so many different environments. And Id venture to say its survival has little to do with its alkaloids, Id say its POPULARITY has everything to do with the akaloids however.

But even w/out the alkaloids theres a good chance poppies would be prevalent in a lot of parts of the world simply because of its growing behavior, short cycle times or w/e Im trying to say. To determine the reproductive success/potential of a gene you must take into account all traits of that gene, not just one.

 

[Valium]

Anyone got an idea on this? Is it to protect the plant from other animals eating it? If it is, the poppy coulda chose a better chemical than sweet sweet morphine.. however; I guess it does ensure the survival of the species as long as humans are around.

such a question cannot be answered i think...for its too 'deep', ...something for god to explain to us when he decides to finally break his scandinavian silence...

but i think...its known that humans have used papaver since earliest times of homo sapiens existence...and when you pick the plant and use it, since its such a valuable thing, a painkiller - and what do humans despair about more than physical pain...usually nothing. physical pain is pretty much the main reason for people wishing to have an assisted suicide or prompted death [by means of morphine usually], and the plant has been used and abused ....and when you shake it while you carry it back to your cave, seeds fall out and germination for the poppy is a very simple process, its not a capricious plant...it grows like a weed, everywhere, always, only depending on climate and moisture to a degree much less severe than most other plants. so by producing more morphine, the particular plant will have success in reproduction and survival of its species. this is what seems reasonable to me anyway.

a related thing to ponder on....why has cannabis become more potent over the last 30 years? because we disturb the plants that we know are best for our purpose, and plants reproduce by being disturbed..distributed, moved about etc.

what a complicated question, my god.

 

[Valium]

, its like I learned SO MUCH but I actually didnt learn anything.

hehe. welcome to the world of psychology mindf*cking. you learn, you study for days on end, you dont sleep, you lose weight, you think and think and write and write but then one professor hails you and another debases you for your idiocy and simplicity in thought....

its actually, this field, very similar to the field of anthropology which was what i studied extensively before i discovered the glorious world of psychopathology and clinical methods of all sorts. this field, this study is built on uncertainty and argument. and i think, therefore, it is so progressive...argument and doubt is what drives us forward...of course, only argument with good polemic, but i've seen many a face get punched to a bloody little mess over the oddest disagreements.

psychology is the most interesting thing in the world. hands down.

 

[garuda]

I've had an evolutionary psych and an evolutionary bio class and Id be so curious to hear what my professors would say.

I wish they would stop talking to the media, their quotes and papers are often badly interpreted.

One big thing is the public doesn't understand what evolution is, a common misconception is that there is some force behind it, or that evolution is some kind of upward march.

 

[Desdenova]

I've had an evolutionary psych and an evolutionary bio class and Id be so curious to hear what my professors would say.
But Ill put it this way, anytime a student had a "theory" the professor would falsify the theory in about 2 seconds.
I have to say till this day the evo psych class was the most mind blowing class Ive ever taken, its like I learned SO MUCH but I actually didnt learn anything.

But I do recall a lot of talk about how the environment weeds out traits of the gene. A variety of genes are produced and certain ones "accidentally" survive due to the relative random climate/condition of the environment.
You also NEVER just look at one trait which is what a lot of you are doing.

This may have nothing to do with the alkaloids in the plant but the general growing behavoir of the plant. Every knows poppies grows rampid like a weed in so many different environments. And Id venture to say its survival has little to do with its alkaloids, Id say its POPULARITY has everything to do with the akaloids however.

But even w/out the alkaloids theres a good chance poppies would be prevalent in a lot of parts of the world simply because of its growing behavior, short cycle times or w/e Im trying to say. To determine the reproductive success/potential of a gene you must take into account all traits of that gene, not just one.

I think this is an extremely important point that nobody is taking into account

People are talking like morphine production is the sole reason for the poppy's pre-human sucess, when in fact there is absolutely no reason to think this is the case, and the reality is morphine could very likely have absolutely nothing to do with it

It's a weed that spreads like wildfire and grows with ease in many climates. Morphine only comes into play when humans discover it and purposefully cultivate it, thereby rendering the evolutionary aspects moot