Veganism/vegetarianism and "ethical" lifestyle choices

[What 23]

I understand your sentiment .

 

[swilow]

You're talking to yourself now?

Good to hear i am not the only one who disregards basically all of what23's stimulant rants

 

[murphythecat]

excuse me if I don't take your word for it, I don't find incredulous rebuttals very convincing as I have already implied I disagree with your opinion. Please show me some contigency plans from a working, credible, and reliable source.

your the one claiming it cant be done..
your the one who should show evidence as to how and why it cant be done.
your whole basis of your argument is not based upon morality, but based on assumption that it couldnt be done.

 

[What 23]

I don't take stimulants, willow. Yerba Mate, caffeine- yes. But I'm "this way" without caffeine. (And) Attacked for being on meth.

This "misguided" fellow actually knows who she was referring to, also, and it wasn't me. Wake up. Pay attention. Maybe take a stimulant. Haha.

 

[RichardMooner]

I don't really believe that eating animal based products is ethical, nor unethical, on an individual basis. If making individual contributions to the unethical practices of globalized industries and oppressive systems is also considered unethical, it is absolutely impossible to refrain from unethical practices while living in a westernized society. Simply my existence as a white, sis, male-- makes a contribution to the systemic oppression of ethnic minorities, women, the impoverished, the LGBTQ community, etc..etc.. Does that make my existence unethical? I don't believe so.

The meat industry has had a terrible and massive impact on the environment, via deforestation. Brazil is ranked fourth place for climate pollution, and 75% of their green house gas discharge can be attributed to deforestation of the Amazon for cattle ranching. More than one half of the Earth's rainforest cover has been destroyed, and God knows how many species have gone extinct, or are endangered because of it. 80% of the deforestation for crop farming can be attributed to the meat industry as well. All in all, the meat industry is a massive detriment to the environment, but so is the burning of fossil fuels, and I guarantee that the vast majority of the people here....even the vegetarians.....still drive their cars, still use petroleum based products, still use indoor heating, and still use electricity. In fact, I guarantee that everyone here uses electricity.

You could say that you don't eat meat because of how the animals in the meat industry are treated, but hundreds of thousands of innocent middle easterners have been victims of mass genocide due to a war over the oil industry. So where does that leave us?

As far as nutrition goes, I think that our inevitable death is mainly determined by genetic factors. Not to say that eating a shit ton of fast food isn't going to hurt you, but I don't think that cutting meat out of your diet is going to effect your long term health significantly.

To answer the OP's original question, vegetarianism/veganism is great, but I think that it is more symbolic than anything.

Great topic, by the way.

 

[Ninae]

It might be more symbolic in the context of just one person, but when there are millions and millions it makes a real differerence, and it's also a growing trend so it will continue to make a difference. What makes it easy to excuse for most is that they see it only in the context of themselves so they say it wouldn't make any difference either way, but when there are many who think like that they could make a difference. That's how differences are really made, one at a time.

 

[RichardMooner]

It might be more symbolic in the context of just one person, but when there are millions and millions it makes a real differerence, and it's also a growing trend so it will continue to make a difference. What makes it easy to excuse for most is that they see it only in the context of themselves so they say it wouldn't make any difference either way, but when there are many who think like that they could make a difference. That's how differences are really made, one at a time.

I would like to think that it would be that easy, but there are too many countries that are dependent on agriculture for everyone to just stop eating meat and shut down the meat industry.

We need to get to the root of the problem ie; capitalism. We can't reduce it to it's parts and try to solve problems individually because they don't exist in a vacuum. The meat industry is just a pawn on a chessboard.

 

[Ninae]

I disagree, I think eating meat or not is more of a personal issue. The feeling of not wanting to contribute to the killind of animals or feeling revulsion at the the thought of eating flesh is quite real and can enable you to make many sacrifices.

And like I keep saying, we have to start somewhere. Anywhere is better than nothing. What we need is for more people to start somewhere. You can't just think it must all be fixed at the same time or nothing because it can't happen that way. We don't need to wait for capitalism to end before doing something for animals. That's a cop-out.

Excuses, excuses. By the way, I should be a politician. Turns out I'm not actually that bad when I turn my mind to serious topics like that. Could cause some grief in the Politics section, I reckon, if I could be bothered.

 

[turkalurk]

your the one claiming it cant be done..
your the one who should show evidence as to how and why it cant be done.
your whole basis of your argument is not based upon morality, but based on assumption that it couldnt be done.

yes, I am making inferences about the implications of your call for revolution to change everyone's diet in the name of your personal moral duty based on premises only assumed to be true. But, that's all any of us can do, is it not? You seem to agree that my premises are accurate because you said farming would just be the lesser of two evils. I would rather find a real solution not just change the dynamics of the problem.

Shouldn't it be up to the one who expects the world to change to be the one to prove that it can work?

Let me reiterate. we have a huge population of animals. populations left unchecked expand exponentially until they run out of resources. We are also expanding exponentially. There is only so much space and resources. Where are these animals and their expanding populations going to live when we clear their homes to make room for all the farming it would take to feed the entire world population?

 

[turkalurk]

I don't take stimulants, willow. Yerba Mate, caffeine- yes. But I'm "this way" without caffeine. (And) Attacked for being on meth.

This "misguided" fellow actually knows who she was referring to, also, and it wasn't me. Wake up. Pay attention. Maybe take a stimulant. Haha.

he was confused because I edited my post to include the quote I had forgotten.

I just realized she didn't quote me and you were between our posts so she could have been talking to you. I thought she quoted me.

 

[What 23]

She posted about a minute after my post. You quoted yourself, above my post. Deduction, Jack.

 

[murphythecat]

I see you havent even read any of my links nor tried to do some research on your own
do some research and all your answers will be answered

yes, I am making inferences about the implications of your call for revolution to change everyone's diet in the name of your personal moral duty based on premises only assumed to be true. But, that's all any of us can do, is it not? You seem to agree that my premises are accurate because you said farming would just be the lesser of two evils. I would rather find a real solution not just change the dynamics of the problem.

Shouldn't it be up to the one who expects the world to change to be the one to prove that it can work?

Let me reiterate. we have a huge population of animals. populations left unchecked expand exponentially until they run out of resources. We are also expanding exponentially. There is only so much space and resources. Where are these animals and their expanding populations going to live when we clear their homes to make room for all the farming it would take to feed the entire world population?

 

[What 23]

I didn't catch it, Murphy, but did you fix the links? The first three or so (that I checked) were dead.

 

[turkalurk]

I see you havent even read any of my links nor tried to do some research on your own
do some research and all your answers will be answered

click in your links and you will see what I meant by you need to update them.

 

[RichardMooner]

I disagree, I think eating meat or not is more of a personal issue. The feeling of not wanting to contribute to the killind of animals or feeling revulsion at the the thought of eating flesh is quite real and can enable you to make many sacrifices.

And like I keep saying, we have to start somewhere. Anywhere is better than nothing. What we need is for more people to start somewhere. You can't just think it must all be fixed at the same time or nothing because it can't happen that way. We don't need to wait for capitalism to end before doing something for animals. That's a cop-out.

Excuses, excuses. By the way, I should be a politician. Turns out I'm not actually that bad when I turn my mind to serious topics like that. Could cause some grief in the Politics section, I reckon, if I could be bothered.

The first part of your post kind of reinforces my original point....choosing to eat meat or not is a personal choice, not an efficient one.

We do start somewhere, but it can't start with the destruction of the meat industry because that also entails the destruction of the economies that are dependent on it. We start by changing the development of civilization and industry as a whole because it will always overpower a reductionistic approach to individual problems.

I'm not "copping out", I'm just being pragmatic.

 

[turkalurk]

The first part of your post kind of reinforces my original point....choosing to eat meat or not is a personal choice, not an efficient one.

We do start somewhere, but it can't start with the destruction of the meat industry because that also entails the destruction of the economies that are dependent on it. We start by changing the development of civilization and industry as a whole because it will always overpower a reductionistic approach to individual problems.

I'm not "copping out", I'm just being pragmatic.

thanks for your contributions to the discussion! good points!

 

[swilow]

^Yes indeed, Richard always has a lot of good to contribute to these sort of threads. I hope he continues.

At least they sell cage-free eggs at the grocery store.

Cage free, barn laid:

I told you how to address my points. Post some studies done.

Studies on what? How can you study the benefits of non-existence vs existence? Bear in mind, you bought that up, not anyone else. You made the claim that suffering and alive is better then not. I am highly sceptical of such claims, but they fall well outside the paramaters of plausible enquiry.

You keep acting like eating meat is inherently wrong which has little to do with inhumane business practices.

I haven't once said that eating meat is inherently wrong. I think causing suffering to others is inherently wrong, and I believe that modern agricultural practise causes suffering to animals, to the environment and, therefore, to humans. I think that this could be done ethically and sustainably and economically but until people get over feeling they have the right to cheap meat.

I have stated from the get go my goal is to present an argument that it can be ethical to eat meat

But your first post said:

"In other words, I respect all the varying opinions to varying degrees, but veganism is less ethical because it cannot withstand the scrutiny of Kant's universalization".

Are you trying to say that meat eating can be done ethically or that veganism/vegetarianism is less ethical then eating meat? Now you've said both. Which is why I guess you are mistakenly seeing condemnation from me towards your choices, of which there has been none. There is a tendency to see behaviours in others we are exhibiting (I guess I could be doing this too )

FWIW, I don't really understand why you keep referring to Kant so I hope you would explain this some more. I am not overly familiar with his writing myself.

I don't take stimulants, willow. Yerba Mate, caffeine- yes. But I'm "this way" without caffeine. (And) Attacked for being on meth.

This "misguided" fellow actually knows who she was referring to, also, and it wasn't me. Wake up. Pay attention. Maybe take a stimulant. Haha.

Sorry, it was wishful thinking. I guess I find your attitudes so inconsistent and detached from reality that I assumed you were on drugs, in the same way you keep assuming that people in this thread who display feelings towards animals that are different to your own must be on, or effected by, psychedelics. So I'm sure you can understand my presumption And I wasn't attacking you for it; perhaps it might even help to order your thoughts and even edit them somewhat? But sorry for assuming that about you, it is a bit stupid...

 

[RichardMooner]

Sorry, it was wishful thinking. I guess I find your attitudes so inconsistent and detached from reality that I assumed you were on drugs, in the same way you keep assuming that people in this thread who display feelings towards animals that are different to your own must be on, or effected by, psychedelics. So I'm sure you can understand my presumption And I wasn't attacking you for it; perhaps it might even help to order your thoughts and even edit them somewhat? But sorry for assuming that about you, it is a bit stupid...

Bluelight is great for stims! I should probably be studying as of current, but I'm coming down and don't have any good downers at hand, and Bluelight is a great distraction....So here I am. Haha.

 

[What 23]

Sorry, it was wishful thinking. I guess I find your attitudes so inconsistent and detached from reality that I assumed you were on drugs, in the same way you keep assuming that people in this thread who display feelings towards animals that are different to your own must be on, or effected by, psychedelics. So I'm sure you can understand my presumption And I wasn't attacking you for it; perhaps it might even help to order your thoughts and even edit them somewhat? But sorry for assuming that about you, it is a bit stupid...

Detached from reality, as if you have a proper grip on it?

I have a spectrum of feelings on issues. Bluelight however is flooded with people who are hyper-liberal-leftist, so I have to fight it. Murphythecat also admitted he is a psych user (which, psychs do dissolve borders/boundaries, somewhat, and can leave people feeling rather raw and sensitive, in my experience, but I'm still ignorant and probably shouldnt have said it...).

I have never said and have always denied sans the possibility of it being in ecstasy back in the day, that I have used meth.

I'm the kind of person that feels bad keeping animals inside houses. I hate seeing birds inside of cages in facilities I service. There are no windows. No fresh air. Just a glass cage and fake stuff. They are just there to entertain people that do nothing but watch TV and eat and eat medication. My one question about them to a nurse was if they get out ever, and supposedly they are cycled every month or three, and go to live in sanctuaries of sorts. This brought me relief. So don't assume I don't have "feelings".

And you really wonder why I wish 99.93% of humans would just be dispatched? I mean, do you? Humans can take the hit. The planet can't take much more of us. I tire of our stroking ourselves for saving Africans that are trying to illegally cross the Mediterranean into Europe. I tire of the guilt people place on each other and expectation of natural empathy and identity for ones family to extend to other tribes (and if not, you are evil bigoted racist!!!). In ways I like that the world is talking... In ways I want to be like God and scatter it.

I am active.

It is not wrong to eat meat. Our current state is out of balance.

That being said, I wish I could live off of solar energy. And I was a robot. I'd sit on a mountain and soak the rays, and probably wouldn't move for 10,000 years. Maybe Iguana my head about and dance sometimes. I don't know.

 

[murphythecat]

It is not wrong to eat meat.

I see violence, lack of compassion and suffering when killing a innocent animal.

dont you think violence is wrong?