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  • TDS Moderators: AlphaMethylPhenyl | paranoid android

took sub this morning, copped H this afternoon . WTF?

ControlDenied said:
the idea of relapsing due to a craving while detoxing off subs makes me want to actually commit suicide.
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I know exactly what you are saying. But once you actually detox, and are faced with the paws, if you have to relapse don't feel too bad about it. The last few days of paws I was thinking the same thing, "If I have to go back to sub I'll kill myself", and then a couple days later it turned into "if I don't go back to sub I WILL KILL MYSELF". So I went back to sub so I can devise a better plan for paws.
I had a solid plan for tapering which made tapering go relatively smooth. But my plan for paws was just to "deal with it". The problem is that for some people dealing with paws can drive them straight into a serious depression, so don't think that dealing with it is always the only choice. At this point I'm just trying to stay on sub for a few more weeks, till I get a strong anti-d and a bunch of neurontin in my possession.

Neurontin helps A LOT for paws, but does nothing for depression which is where the anti-d comes in. I plan on staying on them both for 6 months, then tapering off them for another 3 months and I truely believe at that point my brain will be ready enough to face sobriety. Thats all I really feel I have to do. Get on a non-opiate med that can address the symptoms for 6 months, then taper off slowly and bye bye paws.
Last time I got off opiates, I was on lexapro for the first year, and it seems to have covered up every single aspect of paws. I stopped the lex, and felt "normal" once the lex wds were over. I didn't feel like I had a permanent alteration in my brain anymore that I had to struggle with, so I'm going a very similar route this time.
People always use to say don't worry about wds worry about paws, and I always use to say "fuck that if I can get through wds I KNOW FOR A FACT I can get through paws", but oddly enough wds were fairly easy with tapering, but paws were an utter nightmare.
Just a matter of being patient imo and planning for everything you can.
 
jake99 said:
totach i take k pins every day i need them , i have real bad anxiety , control denied i was seeing a sub doc for a few months but it was really expensive and i would just end up using becuse i knew i had a sub stash to fall back on..............so so far today i had a sub yesterday 6 mg woke up kinad crappy this morning but also had taken mad zanex last night ..........made it to class, then copped a bun .............now i have half a sub left 4 mg.............oh the joys of opiate addictions
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So how's copping a bun go along with wanting to stay clean? I just don't think it's right for you to ask people to help you "get clean" on here when you're forced to take sub or stop dope for a couple days cause you're broke but you dont really want to stop if you say if you had the money you would keep using. If you really wanted to get clean you'd do everything in your power to do that, and not make excuse after excuse for not doing it.
 
Bojangles69 said:
I know exactly what you are saying. But once you actually detox, and are faced with the paws, if you have to relapse don't feel too bad about it. The last few days of paws I was thinking the same thing, "If I have to go back to sub I'll kill myself", and then a couple days later it turned into "if I don't go back to sub I WILL KILL MYSELF". So I went back to sub so I can devise a better plan for paws.
I had a solid plan for tapering which made tapering go relatively smooth. But my plan for paws was just to "deal with it". The problem is that for some people dealing with paws can drive them straight into a serious depression, so don't think that dealing with it is always the only choice. At this point I'm just trying to stay on sub for a few more weeks, till I get a strong anti-d and a bunch of neurontin in my possession.

Neurontin helps A LOT for paws, but does nothing for depression which is where the anti-d comes in. I plan on staying on them both for 6 months, then tapering off them for another 3 months and I truely believe at that point my brain will be ready enough to face sobriety. Thats all I really feel I have to do. Get on a non-opiate med that can address the symptoms for 6 months, then taper off slowly and bye bye paws.
Last time I got off opiates, I was on lexapro for the first year, and it seems to have covered up every single aspect of paws. I stopped the lex, and felt "normal" once the lex wds were over. I didn't feel like I had a permanent alteration in my brain anymore that I had to struggle with, so I'm going a very similar route this time.
People always use to say don't worry about wds worry about paws, and I always use to say "fuck that if I can get through wds I KNOW FOR A FACT I can get through paws", but oddly enough wds were fairly easy with tapering, but paws were an utter nightmare.
Just a matter of being patient imo and planning for everything you can.
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i meant relapsing on my drugs of choice - i.v. H, M and D. but im scared to shit of what ive read about suboxone WDs. they sound worse! ive only been on it for 10 days. should i start weaning right away off 16 mg? im not experimenting with myself BTW: its all prescribed/controlled by a doctor at a clinic. why do some people seem to be saying sub WDs and relapsing on subs is worse than with other opioids especially IV? this sound kind of crazy... and scary since the idea is to use subs to quit opiates right? can someone please explain this to me as it scares me quite a bit. i meant the idea of relapsing on needle opiates not subs which i am taking for maintenance while i get rid of craving and habits until im weaned off.
 
People say that for good reason.
Heroin is only 1 1/2 - 2 times more potent than morphine.

Suboxone is regarded to be 30-40 times stronger than morphine.
Although the dose you would take of sub is much lower, you are still trying to ward off full agonist wds with a partial agonist (an absurdly strong one at that). "Matching" those 2 different types of drugs can ultimately result in people being not only on high doses of sub, but doses that can cause a lot more trauma to the brain than something like heroin would.

Sub concretes itself to your receptors with much higher affinity, and I believe this results in a much greater stress/trauma to the receptors. It will raise your tolerance through the roof, while signaling much quicker and much more intensely for your receptors to shut down.

Just because its partial agonist doesn't mean that it doesn't create stronger and more long terms rebounds and paw phases.
This is just my nonprofessional opinion (which is always open to criticism) but I personally believe sub causes much longer lasting alterations to the brain off opiates than something like heroin could.
The misconception is often associated to heroin being worse simply because thats usually the users DOC, which they most likely abused much longer term than the suboxone.
Say one user slams diesel for 10 years, then sub for 3, and gets slammed with paws that last for 5 years, that user is much more likely to assume the heroin created those long lasting changes.
But in terms of strength and affinity, sub puts most opiates to shame. So my question is, how does this NOT create much more severe and long lasting changes to the brain?

Sub is still somewhat a new drug. Heroin and morphine are not. We are still adding to the list of sideeffects on this drug.
Who knows if 10 years from now people are gonna find out that sub not only shuts down receptors but damages them permenently? My point being, a lot of people voice "weird" side effects from sub. I know damn well I have experienced them. And I don't think scientists can really properly document its impact on the brain till 20 years have passed and enough people have either been fucked up, or NOT fucked up.

But my reason to say sub is bad, is not based on that speculation. Its based on the power of it alone. And reasoning would tell people with commonsense that its prob a good idea to be a little more cynical towards the idea of using it to "get clean". I believe sub has uses, but not in the culture/manner its being used now. Theres simply no reason for members on this forum to be on it for 24 months straight. They are OBVIOUSLY not addressing a single aspect of their addictions or doing any talk therapy if they think 2 years on sub has made them "clean". It just sounds more like infantile thinking than the true harsh reality that they are only using sub for that long, because they lack coping skills to avoid going back to dope the second they come off it.
Sub nurtures denial like no other drug I've ever seen.

Rather than people quitting dope and going to see a psychtherapist to learn to accept/cope with the harsh realities of sober life, they stay on sub indefinitely and become apathetic towards their addictions. They are essentially the same exact drug addicts they were the day they stopped dope.
How have they learned to cope with sobriety and life in general by simply transitioning to another even stronger opiate?

Its your life. And I'd rather not impose anymore of my own bias/beliefs on you. But I think if you DO NOT start weaning immediately, everyday that passes by will make you more and more apathetic towards the idea of actually doing it. Unless everyone whos on sub just plans on just switching back and forth for life between opiates, there comes a time where anyone ACTUALLY TRYING to get "clean" will get off all opiates completely and face the demons that drive them to use in the first place.
I just think the whole "sub detox" from heroin plan was something largely financed and manipulated by pharmaceutical industries which is not really helping people like they think. You WILL find people on sub for years who will tell you they "love it", but I guarantee if you asked those same people if they still love sub a year after getting off their answer would NOT be the same.
 
I just want to say to everyone on here that is kicking me while im down screw you . Do you forget what its like to want to stop so bad but get so sick you just cant take it ? And dont tell me i havent tried. Ive been trying the last year or so to get clean .................
 
Who knows if 10 years from now people are gonna find out that sub not only shuts down receptors but damages them permenently? My point being, a lot of people voice "weird" side effects from sub.
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I doubt that. It has been being used for a long time in France, and as other preparations. I dont think it is anymore damaging than a full agonist would be and that is again debatable if there is even damage but your right you never know.

peace.
seedless
 
the sub tapers just dont seem to work because you are ok but once sub is gone your still sick
 
(@bag) Doesn't the strength and affinity of sub somewhat scare you at to what its most likely doing to your receptors?
Heroins a STRONG drug, but sub makes it look like aspirin. I think some people forget that just because they can't feel their sub doesn't mean its not wreaking mass havoc on their receptors.
If people getting off heroin can claim to never feel right again for as long as they are clean, and heroin is 1/20th as strong as sub, it just makes me assume that it IS more damaging than a full agonist.
Subs partial activity on the u-receptors is still 20times stronger than heroins full activity.
And subs an asburdly strong antagonist at the k-receptors. My point is this. By antagonizing the k-receptors it essentially deactivates your u-receptors (the get high ones) while STILL attaching to them and traumatizing them to a level far beyond diesel.
So you are getting MORE trauma to the u-receptors with LESS effect.

Sub is hitting the receptors in a way where you don't feel how fucked up your u-receptors are untill you get off, it stops antagonizing k, and the u-receptors never come back because subs partial activity was STILL light years ahead of heroins full activity.
I really think people are miscomprehending implications from the neurochemistry. A stronger opiate WILL greatly trigger much more long term changes regardless of it being partial. The fact that its so much stronger partially, and deactivates u-receptors by antagonizing k, creates a the perfect scenario for unrealized/long term damage.

You're prob right, maybe its NOT more damaging, but I'm still going with my gut 100% for personal reasons. It doesn't mean I won't use sub, but it DOES mean I will never use it long term.

edit: I also want to mention I'm looking for a study I was reading the other day about sub and its "unique" phase of paws in people who used it for specific shortterm/longterm durations. And what the study clearly suggested was that people using sub for 2 years or more were experiencing much longer phases of paws than other opiate users. To the point where users even using it for just 2 years were experiencing paws more than 2 years long. Other users reporting paws still at the time of the study (I think it was 5 years long). Think about it, 2 years on sub and some people are getting 5 years of paws symptoms?

I need to find this study cause it clearly supports my point lol
 
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(@bag) Doesn't the strength and affinity of sub somewhat scare you at to what its most likely doing to your receptors?
Heroins a STRONG drug, but sub makes it look like aspirin. I think some people forget that just because they can't feel their sub doesn't mean its not wreaking mass havoc on their receptors.
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I was never able to get out of heroin use for a long time so truthfully I have never dealt with direct extended w/d from heroin. Bupe did pull me out semi easy though, I think. Only at 6 months though.

peace.
seedless
 
Ok thats interesting to know.
I do have more facts than my own random speculation I'm looking for a specific study now but don't remember if it was my schools research pool or online/somewhere else. Yet at the same time even if I do submit it its gonna wind out freaking out everyone whos on sub right now (if you take to research as dogma which a smart person definitely shouldn't).
 
hey jake, This is ur suport thread so dont pay mind to people that are putting u down. I do believe tho that most of them dont mean harm there just tryin 2 help n when they c there not helping i guess it can b alittle frustrating. Hang in there man as long as u want to stop hopefully eventually u will just as long as ur not thinking i wanna use the rest of my life i think ur making progress. Honestly for me when i make the switch back 2 subs after a binge the hardest days for me are day 1,2,3 n thats cuz i always say fuck it i hav no clean time anyways ill just start 2morow. Once i get 2 day 3 i think the opposite im like fuck if i use now that means i suffered the last 3 days for nuthing n it keeps me clean i really dont know y i always go back but hey its a working progress.

hey BOJANGLES i hav a ? mayb u can anser for me as i am really curious 2 know
why is it that suboxone does not show posotive on a drug test if it is a opiate that is 40 times stronger then heroin. I dont think this ? is against the rules im not trying to pass a drug test i was just curious y it is that such a strong opiate wouldnt show on a drug test.
 
Hey totach as far as I know drug tests only test for a predetermined amount of opiates/natural opiate metabolites.
What I mean is the employment offices/parole are only meant to identify the most common opiates abused like heroin/oxy/codiene etc. There are prob a lot more opiates besides suboxone that they don't test for. Like tramadol for one. I never hear people failing drug tests for tram.
Now in the situation where the person testing you KNOWS you abuse a specific drug, that the majority of the population doesn't abuse (like tram/sub) they can still get a specific opiate test that test only for that drug.
So it really has nothing to do with the power of the opiate. It has more to do with testing for opiates that have the highest abuse potential. And the standard opiate test prob leaves out like 30 other opiates for all I know.
It would cost WAY TOO MUCH money to buy the strips (for testing) if the strips were designed in the lab to test for 100 different opiates, so instead they only test for like the 4 or 5 most abused opiates.
Its funny because if the person taking the test has any background in chemistry, they can go in high everytime and not fail a single drug test just by avoiding the few specific drugs standard tests identify.
 
that makes sense cuz i also used to wonder why drug tests hav 3 diffrent opiate strips one for oxy,opiates,methadone now it makes sense. I guess if they test for methadone its only a matter of time till suboxone gets there. Thanx for the reply.
 
isnt there anyone who kicks a few days with subs or is that only ppl with small habits
 
that really depends on the person as u know ive bin doin dope for almost 6 years heavy and i can still kick the really bad w/d wit subs. Like a month ago i went to vegas for a week with only 4mg of subs n i woulda bin in full blown w/d if not for the subs i was shooting between 1 to 2 buns a day. By the way thats y im so desperate to b clean now cuz in all my 6 years of using i only turned to shooting in the last couple months n its scaring me. Basically even someone with a really bad habit can kick wit subs for a week n stop but there chances for relapsing is probably 100 times greater like alot of people say its not the w/d thats the hard part its the paws. Im sure someone will probably say the opposite of what i said but that is how i feel it works for me.
 
agree. i can make it a few days on subs but when they wear off i feel depressed as hell and if i have money ill end up using
 
Jake~
If you can make it a few days on subs why dont you just keep going on the subs? You say that you end up buying a bundle but couldnt you just spend that money on a sub doc or even get them off the street? You should seriously give subs a try for 2-3 weeks. I just did it and I felt fucken fantastic. I wish you could let yourself get this far and experience those feelings cuz it gives me hope. It's corny but it does get better; slowly but surely....
 
ya i know man its really a bitch i think im really gonna try giving sub maintnence a try fuck it how much worse can it b then dope w/d i only take less then 1mg a day anyways.
 
does anyone know if 2 weeks of ~16 mg a day on subs can cause these crazy-long WD and PAWs from it? i wasnt even an iv user for more than a year; and only the last 3 months were in any way me being "Wired" and only mildly at that (the dilaudid WDs were bad but not that bad). my last sub dose was 8 mg sublingual yesterday. later i felt physical wd's. today i feel depressed. i know they fucked my receptors. question is how will i handle 6 months of this if thats how long the withdrawal from subs is? ridiculous cure really

btw subs was only sublingual
 
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