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The Refugees, the Army and the Boat...

This is peoples' lives we are talking about!
I realise that there are some valid points as to why this is not a clear-cut situation, but some of you people are talking as if you have done something to deserve a better lifestyle than these people. That because you were born on this soil, you have more right to it than another. I can't see the logic in this.
And using a Channel 10 viewers' pole to legitimise your standpoint is just plain wrong.
People are dying slow deaths off the coast of our country and some of you guys are getting upset about how bothersome they are. How they could be criminals. How presumptuous it is for them to assume they can live here. All we know about these people right now is that:
a) They were so desparate to leave their former situation they they would risk it all on a boat to come here.
b) Some of them are sick and dying
c) They have nowhere else to go
d) We can help them
I figure we could at least bring them to our shores and help their medical emergencies. Treat these people as potential friends, rather than potential enemies (and by housing them in prison-like detention centres doesn't relay this attitude to refugees well at all). Other, less urgent issues could be looked into afterwards.
There may be reasons I haven't heard that would render my 'plan of action' useless, but I'm yet to hear them. If anyone has any, please post
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I hope this doesn't sound too rambly :P
[Edit Note]>> I probably could have made this a fair bit shorter by saying "I agree with De Quincey", but he posted while I was writing (I went and got food in the middle of writing so it took a while
smile.gif
), so I didn't see it.
[This message has been edited by Toumbido (edited 29 August 2001).]
 
This is certainly a complex issue which unfortunately eludes my full comprehension at the present moment. However, after doing a bit of reading on the net, I'd tend to agree that humanitarian needs must take priority over economic ones especially since the Christmas Islanders actually got together and appealed to the government to let the refugees land (link here).
While I feel that complex matters such as these can only reach realistic resolutions in the long term, it is expedient that steps and proposals continue to be taken in the interests of reaching such a resolution instead of merely looking the other way and hoping that the problem will simply disappear or move somewhere else.
Yes.. I, too, wish I had more answers and less rhetoric. The only thing I'd say at this point concerns the discussion itself: I personally feel that we need to constantly pull ourselves back into objectivity and keep considering both sides of the argument. I'm not advocating constant fence-sitting... feelings and opinions are the whole point of discussions but losing ourselves in emotion and name-calling seldom yield constructive results. Please don't (anyone) take it personally... it's as much a reminder to myself as to anyone else.
Just a few links related to this topic for those who'd like to read up (don't know how long the links will stay):
theage.com.au
Stranded at sea
theaustralian.news.com.au
Refugees trapped at sea
Cargo of Human Misery
Countries may start to refuse entry
ALP conflict on refugee position
[This message has been edited by yaya (edited 29 August 2001).]
 
"hundreds of millions of dollars are spent every year in keeping these people in detention. That money could be going into our medicare system or education. It could go into aged care, or...."
Bubbles, "these people" as you call them are HUMANS! since we have the power, money, etc to help them, it is our job, as humans, to help them out as much as possible! when r we going to learn that living in this world is not just bout looking after our-own-selves!
OH and here's something else for you to think about Bubbles, we spend millions of dollars on people in prisons! we r talking bout murderers, rapers here! so PLZ lets not talk bout 'wasting' our money on people in detentions!
"This is our country not a big fucking refugee camp. If you think all these people should be let in - you pay for it, and you protect me, my family, my friends and my community from those of them that are dangerous."
Australia is _not_ a big fucking refugee camp, however, it is a country which has the facilities to help others in need! so it is our job to help out the ones we can as much as possible!
and PLEASE! the chances of you hurting urself while eating all them drugs at a party r way higher than u getting hurt by a refugee! seriously thou, u better chill cause the australian government does nough reaserch b 4 they give someone a refugee visa! so u and ur family r safe!
AND for all you ppl going on bout how we "look after" the boat ppl in those detension centres!
give me a break!
have you seen the conditions those camps r in???
the high security prisons have a fucking swimming pool, gym, t.v, library and etc!
these poor refugees (after going though all that shit in their own contry, having to leave all their friends and family) r living in these cells, with like 20 other ppl! with no windows! no t.v! no nothing! their health is in a very bad state! both mentally and physically! and they r constantly under pressure cause at any moment they can be deported back to their country where they'll probably get killed for leaving their country in the 1st place!
Oh and u say give us solutions, don't just complaine! well one thing we can do is not treating the ppl in detention centers like animals!
also we can try and find a way for ppl in contries which don't have an Australian embassy to apply for a refugee visa without having to come all the way here on a boat, not knowing wut to expect! (i don't know how we can do this! maybe my solution is not possible at all! but i'm sure there is something we can do?)
Anyways you guys have a fun weekend, party hard and don't bother thinking bout other human beings who r suffering in this world! cause it ain't our problem! plus we have nough issues of our own to deal with!
one thing thou, remember,
EVIL happens when GOOD men do nothing!
------------------
Hear not the sound of silence.
 
*wonders how many people who bitch and moan bout conditions in refugee camps and all the hardships faced by those who come here to start new lives are actually out there volunteering and DOING something to make a difference, instead of just sitting back and espousing opinions on how much better we should be doing*
Remember.....ACTIONS SPEAK LOUDER THAN WORDS!!!!
[This message has been edited by BlackMagicWoman (edited 30 August 2001).]
 
Updates as of this morning the 30th...
It seems that regardless of ones personal beliefs with respect to this matter, Australia's position is becoming rapidly untennable.
So far developments have included:
-Howard's attempts to rapidly pass new legislation allowing the forced removal of vessels from Australian waters has stalled in the upper house. Minor parties and the opposition have refused to ratify the bill citing unease with the sweeping powers it potentially endows. The legislation was to allow any vessel to be towed to international waters without recourse to the court-system. Howards motives for passing it were to cover all legal bases with respect to his plans for the Tampa.
-Norway has put forth a motion to the UN condemning Australias actions, citing them as a breach of international law. They are angered by Australias lack of action with regard to the asylum seekers, and the fact that the SAS has taken posesion of a ship regarded as their sovereign property. Norway is also preparing a submission to the international maritime regulatory body, and has not ruled out placing trade sanctions on Aust.
-According to the recognised charters of international law, Australia is currently in breach of its obligations. International law states that a nation is responsible for the human-rights of all induviduals within its territories, and does not make the distinction between wether they have entered lawfully or not. Since the Tampa is at this point currently morred within Australian waters, and under the control of the Aust. SAS and therefore our government by proxy, Australia is in breach of recognised international conventions.
-The captain of the Tampa insists that an additional sea voyage to either Indonesia or Norway is not possible, due to the fact that the container ship is only provisioned for 21 crewmembers none of which have any medical knowlege to treat those aboard. Additionally, the captian cites maritime laws in making his descision to go to an Australian port.
It seems as though Australia must logically at some point accept these refugees, there seems to be few other solutions... This is having a grave effect on Australias international standing from both nations and NGO's alike. With Howards legislation facing failure, he may not be able to wether the legal repercussions of sending the ship back into international waters.
This is becoming an increasingly messy affair, and is already causing stiff division amongst the community...
 
And btw.......if we're gonna start welcoming all refugees with open arms and set them up with new lives and provide them with everything they're gonna need, exactly where do you propose to get the huge amounts of money from that it would require???? Directing funding towards this would mean directing it away from programs that help Australians......maybe I'd be more sympathetic to this cause if we had massive amounts of money in surplus...but, I work in intergovernmental financial relations, and believe me there ain't much to spread around even for Australian causes.....
Hmmmm....how many of you would be happy to pay additional taxes in order to become a haven for every refugee who wants to come here?? If you're prepared to hand over money outta your paycheques for it, then that's groovy and you're entitled to say we should help.....but, those of you who say we should help, but wouldn't be prepared to volunteer, or give money, or help personally in any way...well, I don't put much stock in your words.......
And a lil message to everybody on here saying we should do something.....how many of you are planning on giving up your drugs for the next couple of months and donating the money towards the cause instead???
 
Please BMW... Assumption is the mother of all fuckups. With respect, you yourself have no comprehension with regard to wether people volunteer, or donate money... Despite this being somewhat irrelevant when discussing veiws over any particular issue.
Yes when refugees do arrive they are funded by taxpayer money, which has to come from somewhere... But when you consider that three quaters of the worlds population don't have access to clean water, you can see how disproportionate the allocation of resources is. Secondly, the current issue at hand is the situation aboard the Tampa. Obviously in a broader political context the refugee issue is much more complex, and thus must be approached as such. Advocating reform to our current legislation does not automatcally involve turning Australia into a 'refugee haven.' Obviously this is not ultimately practical, and not the only solution to such a problem.
Please folks, lets have a little less flaming on both sides of this debate, and remain focused on the issues.
 
Cant you people look at the bigger picture???
I think it is you Plasma and others that are being ignorant.
If this was solely about 400 starving people then yes, I wholeheartedly agree that Australia should allow them to disembark. But its NOT about that. Its about the message being sent to the thousands of others back in these countries that are contemplating making the same journey.
For fucks sake, open your eyes. We've made a stand and we need to stick to it.
Sometimes you need to be tough to protect your country!
 
Australia is a hypocritcal country. We impose trade sanctions on countries like iran and afghanistan, and then try and turn a blind eye when the consequences turn up at our doorstep. We complain when our people are arrested in these countries and now we tell people who are running from those same circumstances to fuck off.
We whinge when we recieve a thousand refugees in 14 days. Fuck when will we realise that countries like germany recieve hundereds of thousands of people each year. We must also realise that we need immigration at this point. The current birth rate in this country is 1.74 kids per woman. If we stop letting people in our population will go backwards and our economy will head south even faster. But that aside we have a global responsibility as a competent nation.
I think australias main problem at the moment is the cost of assessing refugees once they arrive. The current court set up is simply unable to deal with it in a prompt and clear cut manner. Rather than legislating to kick boats out of our territory we should be legislating to ensure a common sense approach to determining the legitimacy of a refugees claims.
I have no qualms about sending people back, but only once it has been determined they aren't a refugee. I think it's particularly un-australian to not accept someone with legitimate claims. I thought australia was all about giving everyone a fair go. It seems now I'm mistaken...
* I know people have differing views to this, and i agree with many of the points raised. This is just my opinion, nothing more *
 
Oh and yeah something that seems to have been largely 'overlooked' in the australian media. I feel sorry for the norwegian captain - bet he's getting a vacation sometime soon..
International groups have urged Australia to allow the would be migrants ashore, especially in the wake of revelations that the Australian coastguard asked the ship to pick them up from the distressed Indonesian ferry they were on.
source: cnn.com
Click to expand...
 
Can anyone tell me why they don't go to other islamic countries (such as Malaysia) which is where they set sail from (as they have free passage through these countries) but instead illagally enter another country, I mean couldn't they legally take refugee status in one of these countries? Or do they turn them away as well? And if so, why don't they accept refugees, why is it our responsibility?
Oh and plazma, I think it's pretty unfair the way you deem anyone without your view to be ignorant and beleiving propaganda etc etc. Allow people to have their own views and don't codemn them for not coming to the same conclusions as you.
Although you don't come out and directly attack people you have called them ignorant, beleivers of propaganda and generally put them down, I know you feel strongly about this, but this doesn't solve anything.
 
Everything I could say has been said.
As an individual case I think these poor people should be let in, I do think we should draw a line somewhere and there is room for a few more people in here.
I also like what mr e.moore said about plazma ;P
 
The Tampa rescued them and was on route to taking them to Indonesia, these refugees then said that they didn't want to go to Indonesia and said to go to Christmas Island instead, so someone explain to me why this is Australia's problem, just because these refugees ordered the captain to Australian waters?
Australia, second to Canada has the highest per capita acceptance of refugees in the world. I grant you, that the detention centre's could be better, but the line has to be drawn somewhere. A lot of these people claiming they're refugees don't have any papers to prove who they are, now why do you think that is?
I have no problem's accepting genuine refugees, people fleeing genuine persecution, but if they've just come here on boats, claiming they're refugees because the Australian way of life is better than the one they're currently living, then they should go through the proper channels and apply that way.
 
A fair few people have mentioned our per capita acceptance of refugees. But in light of the fact that we have such a small population compared to Australia's giant landmass, it's not a very strong point. It's much more interesting that countries such as Germany have a much smaller country, with a larger population, but still allow more refugees entrance than we do. We can't hoard all this spare land forever, nor should we try.
 
A question that often crops up:
"Why is it our problem?"
Because we can either pass the buck, or show some responsibility and deal with it. We have large ammounts of refugees that are arriving to Australia for one reason or another. The fact we exist in this geographic location is why it is "our problem." Nobody else is going to deal with it... Any potential solutions are up to us, and we should learn to come to terms with this...Fast.
As for the 'proper channels' argument, read the previous posts. The nations where these refugees are emigrating from do not posess Australian embassies, and therefore there is no possible way of pursuing such legitimate claims.
The reason the Capitain of the Tampa bought the refugees here was because after being instructed to pick them up by the Australian authorites, the refugees subsequently fearing potential reprisals on their return home announced their intention to commit suicide if the ship did not continue to Australia. Under such conditions, think it was not unreasonable for the capitain to act in the manner he did. Now that the boat is currently IN Australian waters, we have an obligation under international law to at least allow the ship to dock so those aboard can gain access to medical treatment, food and shelter. Obviously the process of assesing what future steps are to be taken can be worked through afterwards. Currently, this whole debacle is a travesty of basic human rights.
[This message has been edited by -Thoth (edited 30 August 2001).]
 
Plazma, your stupidity, lack of knowledge and immaturity far outweighs any burden that 500 odd refugees could make on our economy - so in support to your argument, I suggest we trade them for you!
 
Toumbido, if we are to accept more refugees, where are we to house them, housing costs money? we'd have to teach (some of) them basic skills and possibly English, skills cost money? where do we get the money? these are just a couple of problems
As the population of Australia grows, of course the more refugees we could accept, I don't think Australia's land mass is the defining problem, unless you want to put them in the desert which is a large portion of Australia.
The problem is that we are a small nation, population wise, and as such our budget is not the same size as Germany, which being a part of the G8, would have a much greater budget, hence would be able to fund helping a lot more refugees.
I think that's pretty impressive that we are second in the world per capita of accepting refugees, considering we are such a small country with a relatively small budget.
 
-Thoth, I grant you that Australia might not have embassies in the countries where these people are coming from, but are there no embassies in these countries?
Why not go to another country which does have an embassy in there country, or flee the border into a more sympathetic nation where they can claim refugee status without paying the exhorbitant fees to get on to these boats
The fact is that they are coming to Australia because of it's land size, we have a huge land mass for our population and as such would make it relatively easy to avoid the coast guard and get on to Australia without being dedected.
 
My grandparents fought to keep people out of this country who were trying to enter it illegally. Just because people are now are attempting to come in on rusty old boats instead of warships doesn’t mean that we should suddenly turn around and accept people who are trying to come here ILLEGALY!!
If people want to come to this country they should come through the proper legal channels. If we need more people in this country we should increase our intake under our legitimate immigration policy. But letting people in that have no regard for our laws right from the start is not on.
Yes, I know that most of these people don’t have the means or access to proper channels to enter our country legally. Well, stiff shit. We fought to make this country what it is, the personal cost of Australian wars on my family has been huge, we now should have the right to determine who comes in and who doesn’t on our own terms!!
The last thing we want is to wind up like the UK has with their racial problems. We have enough racial problems with the aboriginals to sort out.
Now Im going to be really politically incorrect: Besides aboriginals, who I beleive have a legitimate cause for being unhappy, the biggest trouble makers in my city of Perth are the Vietnamese. They came out as refugees and a large proportion of them amounted to nothing. We can’t risk that with any other refugees. We want people who, like the majority that enter here legally, are going to become productive Australian Citizens. Through legitimate immigration people can be screened to see if they will make good Australian citizens.
To those who go on about these refugees having no access to our legitimate immigration process, well that is something that should be addressed, I agree. But it should be looked at from the other end, the source, back in the countries of origin. We should put steps in place to allow people in all countries to have access to the system. But we shouldn’t accept them when they just roll up at our doorstep because that just encourages anyone and everyone to come, from political refugees to common criminals.
 
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