The Refugees, the Army and the Boat...
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plazma
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ROTFL@haste
don't worry haste boyo... this country... with people in it like you... don't worry matey... i'm leaving... i'm leaving...
as for everyone else...
THE FACTS:
The vast majority of "illegal immigrants" who are here in this country putting a burden on us are caucasian (europeans and americans who overstay their visas) they are conspicuously absent from the detention centres... and THEY are the real drain upon the economy if one holds that illegal immigrants are a drain...
These "illegal immigrants" are refugees... at the moment we have a system in australia called "natural justice" which rules that one is innocent untill proven guilty... thus it would be reasonable to say that these people are refugees until proven otherwise... and offer them the humanitarian aid that they need as human beings...
The calling of these people "queue jumpers" does nothing to assist anyone's integrity... as i have explained before... the places that the majority of these people come from (Iraq, afghanistan etc) have NO diplomatic contact with australia... there IS NO QUEUE TO JUMP!...
Lastly but definately not least... We are not talking about the long term policies of the Howard government here (although i admit i detest them). We are talking about the fact that these poor people need assistance and help... not a bunch of SAS to force them back to wherever they came from (to quite considerable threat)... The taliban just locked up some caucasians for preaching christianity... think what these refugees may face...
sorry to anyone who i've made think... i know it's probably quite a shock to you to have to use that grey matter... you'll get over it...
as for actually doing something about it... BMW! how does going to work for the UN sound... that could be a nice lifetime goal...
don't worry haste boyo... this country... with people in it like you... don't worry matey... i'm leaving... i'm leaving...
as for everyone else...
THE FACTS:
The vast majority of "illegal immigrants" who are here in this country putting a burden on us are caucasian (europeans and americans who overstay their visas) they are conspicuously absent from the detention centres... and THEY are the real drain upon the economy if one holds that illegal immigrants are a drain...
These "illegal immigrants" are refugees... at the moment we have a system in australia called "natural justice" which rules that one is innocent untill proven guilty... thus it would be reasonable to say that these people are refugees until proven otherwise... and offer them the humanitarian aid that they need as human beings...
The calling of these people "queue jumpers" does nothing to assist anyone's integrity... as i have explained before... the places that the majority of these people come from (Iraq, afghanistan etc) have NO diplomatic contact with australia... there IS NO QUEUE TO JUMP!...
Lastly but definately not least... We are not talking about the long term policies of the Howard government here (although i admit i detest them). We are talking about the fact that these poor people need assistance and help... not a bunch of SAS to force them back to wherever they came from (to quite considerable threat)... The taliban just locked up some caucasians for preaching christianity... think what these refugees may face...
sorry to anyone who i've made think... i know it's probably quite a shock to you to have to use that grey matter... you'll get over it...
as for actually doing something about it... BMW! how does going to work for the UN sound... that could be a nice lifetime goal...
"My grandparents fought to keep people out of this country who were trying to enter it illegally. Just because people are now are attempting to come in on rusty old boats instead of warships doesn’t mean that we should suddenly turn around and accept...."
is this a JOKE?!?! cause it just made my day!
My dear Remmy, can't you see/understand the difference between people who just simply want to have the right to live a normal/safe life and people who want to fight australians and to take over the country?
BMW, i agree that talking doesn't solve anything and we need to actually do something to help these situation! which is what i -am- doing! i'm part of a small organisation where we volunteer our time to help out a few refugee families! so before you go judging people, it's good to ask 1st!
plus i agree with -Thoth this whole argument is somewhat irrelevant when discussing veiws over any particular issue.
is this a JOKE?!?! cause it just made my day!
My dear Remmy, can't you see/understand the difference between people who just simply want to have the right to live a normal/safe life and people who want to fight australians and to take over the country?
BMW, i agree that talking doesn't solve anything and we need to actually do something to help these situation! which is what i -am- doing! i'm part of a small organisation where we volunteer our time to help out a few refugee families! so before you go judging people, it's good to ask 1st!
plus i agree with -Thoth this whole argument is somewhat irrelevant when discussing veiws over any particular issue.
nezo
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Regardless of how you feel about the issue, please don't throw personal insults around. It only serves to undermine your argument, not to mention making you sound like a dickhead.
It's good to see that everyone feels that these people need to be helped, it's just how and the extent which is being debated.
I don't think anyone here would deny these unfortunate people (irrespecitve of sex, race, criminal record - living in a container is unfortunate) food, water, medical treatment. However, the question is - what do we do next?
I'm not going to proffer an answer simply because it's an issue which is too complex for a worthless vietnamese refugee like myself to answer.
But please do have sympathy for these people, put yourselve in their place and just imagine the terror they are going through. My heart goes out to them. To escape a country scarred by war only to be faced by soldiers of another country that doesnt' want them must be a nightmare I wouldn't wish on anyone.
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Shut up. If I wanted to listen to an arsehole, I would have farted.
It's good to see that everyone feels that these people need to be helped, it's just how and the extent which is being debated.
I don't think anyone here would deny these unfortunate people (irrespecitve of sex, race, criminal record - living in a container is unfortunate) food, water, medical treatment. However, the question is - what do we do next?
I'm not going to proffer an answer simply because it's an issue which is too complex for a worthless vietnamese refugee like myself to answer.
But please do have sympathy for these people, put yourselve in their place and just imagine the terror they are going through. My heart goes out to them. To escape a country scarred by war only to be faced by soldiers of another country that doesnt' want them must be a nightmare I wouldn't wish on anyone.
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Shut up. If I wanted to listen to an arsehole, I would have farted.
Yes shaddow I do see/understand the difference between people invading Australia with armed force and those attempting to settle illegaly and I agree the difference is a large one. But it seems that you dont understand the similarities either!
Both scenerios involve people coming here illegaly against the will of the majority of the current population.
You may say, oh, but its only 400 odd people. Well if we let this boat come ashore there will be alot more than that on the way.
Look what happened to the UK when it opened up its doors and lapsed its strict immigration policy. Now you have race riots occuring all over England.
Dont get me wrong, I dont beleive this is a race issue. I just want to see that the right people are allowed into this country, selected through the proper channels, not just anyone who rolls up on the doorstep being let through, which seems to be what alot of people writing in this thread are argueing for.
If we want to be moral we should look at opening up avenues for these people to apply to be let into Australia back in their countries of origin. We should make the necessary application processes available to them. But we shouldnt just let them rock up on our doorstep.
Im sorry if my views seem a little extreme, I like to think of myself as a good person, I dont like offending people and I dont claim to be on the moral high ground on this issue. But I do beleive in protecting what we have in Australia, and I honestly beleive our current way of life could come under threat if we are not careful.
Both scenerios involve people coming here illegaly against the will of the majority of the current population.
You may say, oh, but its only 400 odd people. Well if we let this boat come ashore there will be alot more than that on the way.
Look what happened to the UK when it opened up its doors and lapsed its strict immigration policy. Now you have race riots occuring all over England.
Dont get me wrong, I dont beleive this is a race issue. I just want to see that the right people are allowed into this country, selected through the proper channels, not just anyone who rolls up on the doorstep being let through, which seems to be what alot of people writing in this thread are argueing for.
If we want to be moral we should look at opening up avenues for these people to apply to be let into Australia back in their countries of origin. We should make the necessary application processes available to them. But we shouldnt just let them rock up on our doorstep.
Im sorry if my views seem a little extreme, I like to think of myself as a good person, I dont like offending people and I dont claim to be on the moral high ground on this issue. But I do beleive in protecting what we have in Australia, and I honestly beleive our current way of life could come under threat if we are not careful.
The_Fuel
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You got to be joking...... the people (no names need to be mentioned) who believe that they are right and no one elses answer could be right seriously need to take a step back...
but on the topic
You can't honestly believe that we should take the resposiblity for other country's problems.....what with our own problems that we have.... it is unfortunatly time for australia to take care of number one before we start taking on more crap from other countries..
You also can't honestly believe that the majority of Australians wants to let them in...... It is my feeling that it is the VAST majority who DONT want them here.... it is the Australian way for everyone to have a fair go.... so in that light... i dont feel the Australian public will sympathise with the people who are cheating the system.... you full well know that the majority of them are not refugees....
Lastly... something for everyone to think about..... lets put it into reverse.... say for example i wanted refugee status in one of their countries....Vietnam, China, Iraq, Iran, Afganistan etc.... how many of those countries do you think i would be allowed to stay in for a long period....If they didn't let me sink and die in the ocean first...If they dont send me back on the first boat/plane out of their country...or if they don't throw me in jail first.... how many of them do you honestly think would actually set me up in a palace situation such as a villawood detention centre (granted these places aren't a palace situation from our perspective but compared to what other countries would supply... i think you would call them palaces aswell..) ..
And by the way.... all of the above are my opinions ONLY... i don't not claim that only they can be right.... they are what i believe wether they are right or wrong... hence the term OPINION
but on the topic
You can't honestly believe that we should take the resposiblity for other country's problems.....what with our own problems that we have.... it is unfortunatly time for australia to take care of number one before we start taking on more crap from other countries..
You also can't honestly believe that the majority of Australians wants to let them in...... It is my feeling that it is the VAST majority who DONT want them here.... it is the Australian way for everyone to have a fair go.... so in that light... i dont feel the Australian public will sympathise with the people who are cheating the system.... you full well know that the majority of them are not refugees....
Lastly... something for everyone to think about..... lets put it into reverse.... say for example i wanted refugee status in one of their countries....Vietnam, China, Iraq, Iran, Afganistan etc.... how many of those countries do you think i would be allowed to stay in for a long period....If they didn't let me sink and die in the ocean first...If they dont send me back on the first boat/plane out of their country...or if they don't throw me in jail first.... how many of them do you honestly think would actually set me up in a palace situation such as a villawood detention centre (granted these places aren't a palace situation from our perspective but compared to what other countries would supply... i think you would call them palaces aswell..) ..
And by the way.... all of the above are my opinions ONLY... i don't not claim that only they can be right.... they are what i believe wether they are right or wrong... hence the term OPINION
Mr E. Moore
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"The calling of these people "queue jumpers" does nothing to assist anyone's integrity... as i have explained before... the places that the majority of these people come from (Iraq, afghanistan etc) have NO diplomatic contact with australia... there IS NO QUEUE TO JUMP!..."
When we say queue jumpers we are talking about being allowed into Australia while thousands of people from other countries wait for their legal chance to enter Australia.
If we allow these people to enter then why don't we allow everybody who has legally applied in?
I think they have just as much right as the illegal people to be here, if not more!
Also Afghan people can go to islamic SE Asian countries like Malaysia, however they choose to go there first, then they choose to try to enter Australia and it is my belief they choose to make the trip from these countries to Australia because we are considered to have a higher standard of living than countries like Malaysia, not because it is the only option they have (as you seem to beleive if I am not mistaken).
"sorry to anyone who i've made think... i know it's probably quite a shock to you to have to use that grey matter... you'll get over it..."
again Plazma, thats a cheap shot, no one is critisizing you in this way, why do you feel it necessary to put us down with attacks like this? simply because we hold a different view to the one that you hold, grow up, childish attacks make us respect your arguements less, not more.
When we say queue jumpers we are talking about being allowed into Australia while thousands of people from other countries wait for their legal chance to enter Australia.
If we allow these people to enter then why don't we allow everybody who has legally applied in?
I think they have just as much right as the illegal people to be here, if not more!
Also Afghan people can go to islamic SE Asian countries like Malaysia, however they choose to go there first, then they choose to try to enter Australia and it is my belief they choose to make the trip from these countries to Australia because we are considered to have a higher standard of living than countries like Malaysia, not because it is the only option they have (as you seem to beleive if I am not mistaken).
"sorry to anyone who i've made think... i know it's probably quite a shock to you to have to use that grey matter... you'll get over it..."
again Plazma, thats a cheap shot, no one is critisizing you in this way, why do you feel it necessary to put us down with attacks like this? simply because we hold a different view to the one that you hold, grow up, childish attacks make us respect your arguements less, not more.
-Thoth
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It seems once again people are continuing to miss the point. Currently there is a freighter moored wihthin our waters and subject to our responsibility as per international law. They have not yet recieved any medical treatment, proper food, or shelter. Regardless of your stance on refugees, leaving them out there to fester on a vessel only provisioned & seaworthy for 23 crew is a negation of human rights. For christs sakes... While we sit here and talk rhetoric, these people are running out of time. Just give them some dry land some food and a Goddam doctor while it is decided what action to take! Sending in the SAS is madness.
Sometimes, humanity goes on trial.
Sometimes, humanity goes on trial.
i see this as a very touchy topic - the following is a matter of opinion.
also, please note i don't blame one, single person for their involvement or opinions on this... from john howard to the people on the tampa or any other asylum seekers, economic refugees, etc...
there are two types of refugees we are dealing with here - political and economic. seems like a small border for definition, but it's a substantial difference.
economic refugees are people who seek a better life (as human nature drives us to do) through more stable economic conditions than what exist in their country. australia must look like a prime place to be in terms of living conditions. these people must enter the country through legal means and take care of themselves... if we were to let them in through the "boat people" method, there would be a rush of people from all over the world expecting to be taken care of...
does anyone remember hundreds of "refugees" complaining about having to walk to their bathrooms in the cold? i'm not sure of the date... i'll look it up soon. if they truly were refugees in need of asylum to keep them alive, they wouldn't be looking for and actively protesting for, as they did, higher living standards - they'd be happy to have food, water, beds and be rid of the life threatning situation which drove them to seek asylum.
political refugees are the types who have been forced to leave their country, for any reason amounting to the fact their life in their country was under threat/not sustainable for any longer (namely fighting/gun fire motivated by religious disagreements, koos, international relations, etc). the reason i say "political" refugees, is that in all the cases i can think of it's problems on a political scale which have lead to their refugee status. these people need and deserve asylum through any means in my opinion.
i see these "boat people" we are currently dealing with as mostly economic refugees... they do not need refugee status in australia, but they desire it to improve their sometimes very poor lives through it... but we can't help everyone.
what shits me stiff about these people who are, i think, cheating the system, is that they are ruining the hospitality we offer to real refugees by clogging the system, feigning their illnesses and hence making the seriousness of their situations extremely hard to assess... also making real refugees situations not look as unfortunate through possible lieing.
on another note, howard allowing these people in would result in utter chaos - people would flood to australia!
-thoth, my fear is that after solving the problems you have brought up and taking them on (shelter, food, water, possible medical attention), they will expect more... i don't have time right now, but they could complain about walking to the bathroom in the cold, for example. this would lead to more cries of how inhumane australia is.
humanity has been on trial for a long time, and in much worse cases than this.
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wisest is he who knows that he does not know...
the not so artistic artist formerly known as nostalgic...
[This message has been edited by apollo* (edited 30 August 2001).]
also, please note i don't blame one, single person for their involvement or opinions on this... from john howard to the people on the tampa or any other asylum seekers, economic refugees, etc...
there are two types of refugees we are dealing with here - political and economic. seems like a small border for definition, but it's a substantial difference.
economic refugees are people who seek a better life (as human nature drives us to do) through more stable economic conditions than what exist in their country. australia must look like a prime place to be in terms of living conditions. these people must enter the country through legal means and take care of themselves... if we were to let them in through the "boat people" method, there would be a rush of people from all over the world expecting to be taken care of...
does anyone remember hundreds of "refugees" complaining about having to walk to their bathrooms in the cold? i'm not sure of the date... i'll look it up soon. if they truly were refugees in need of asylum to keep them alive, they wouldn't be looking for and actively protesting for, as they did, higher living standards - they'd be happy to have food, water, beds and be rid of the life threatning situation which drove them to seek asylum.
political refugees are the types who have been forced to leave their country, for any reason amounting to the fact their life in their country was under threat/not sustainable for any longer (namely fighting/gun fire motivated by religious disagreements, koos, international relations, etc). the reason i say "political" refugees, is that in all the cases i can think of it's problems on a political scale which have lead to their refugee status. these people need and deserve asylum through any means in my opinion.
i see these "boat people" we are currently dealing with as mostly economic refugees... they do not need refugee status in australia, but they desire it to improve their sometimes very poor lives through it... but we can't help everyone.
what shits me stiff about these people who are, i think, cheating the system, is that they are ruining the hospitality we offer to real refugees by clogging the system, feigning their illnesses and hence making the seriousness of their situations extremely hard to assess... also making real refugees situations not look as unfortunate through possible lieing.
on another note, howard allowing these people in would result in utter chaos - people would flood to australia!
-thoth, my fear is that after solving the problems you have brought up and taking them on (shelter, food, water, possible medical attention), they will expect more... i don't have time right now, but they could complain about walking to the bathroom in the cold, for example. this would lead to more cries of how inhumane australia is.
humanity has been on trial for a long time, and in much worse cases than this.
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wisest is he who knows that he does not know...
the not so artistic artist formerly known as nostalgic...
[This message has been edited by apollo* (edited 30 August 2001).]
nezo
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The_Fuel - I had a think about it..and I think the question is moot. Face it, no one is going to want to immigrate to those countries so it's not really a fair request to reverse the situation.
However, if I take your point and run with it, yes - it's likely they're not going to sent to dentention centres if the situation was reversed. So tell me again why should we send them back to these countries which we both agree will treat them worse than we will?!
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Shut up. If I wanted to listen to an arsehole, I would have farted.
I agree with thoth & plazma. We should let them in and reform our immigration policy a little.
It's a pity some felt the need to degenerate this into a racial issue. It's one world, ppl, one planet. The fact that there are different countries in it is just due to tectonic plate movement and a few hundred million years - nothing more. They're our fellow human beings - they shouldn't be left to die in the middle of the ocean because we're scared to lose our "White Australia".
The Telegraph recently reported that we're taking in less immigrants than our allowable quota and only 1/2 as many as we were in the '80s.
I seriously doubt increasing our amount of refugees would have any impact at all on any Bluelighters' lives. It would make a huge difference to theirs.
[This message has been edited by Milkybar (edited 30 August 2001).]
It's a pity some felt the need to degenerate this into a racial issue. It's one world, ppl, one planet. The fact that there are different countries in it is just due to tectonic plate movement and a few hundred million years - nothing more. They're our fellow human beings - they shouldn't be left to die in the middle of the ocean because we're scared to lose our "White Australia".
The Telegraph recently reported that we're taking in less immigrants than our allowable quota and only 1/2 as many as we were in the '80s.
I seriously doubt increasing our amount of refugees would have any impact at all on any Bluelighters' lives. It would make a huge difference to theirs.
[This message has been edited by Milkybar (edited 30 August 2001).]
nezo
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One more point before I call it a day:
Irrespective of what the autralian government chooses to do regarding the Tampa, I do believe that it will have little impact on the number of people who will attempt to enter australia both legally and illegally.
When someone makes the decision to leave friends / family / their country, it's a decision based on the hope that a better live awaits. It's going to take more than a video about crocodiles and one boatload of refugees who've been turned back to stop people from hoping for a better life. As long as there's hope for these people, they will continue to try, try and try again.
[This message has been edited by nezo (edited 30 August 2001).]
Irrespective of what the autralian government chooses to do regarding the Tampa, I do believe that it will have little impact on the number of people who will attempt to enter australia both legally and illegally.
When someone makes the decision to leave friends / family / their country, it's a decision based on the hope that a better live awaits. It's going to take more than a video about crocodiles and one boatload of refugees who've been turned back to stop people from hoping for a better life. As long as there's hope for these people, they will continue to try, try and try again.
[This message has been edited by nezo (edited 30 August 2001).]
plazma
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Once more unto the breach dear friends...
Ok Moore... it may have been a cheap shot... but some of the opinons going around are downright racist and selfish... this issue seems to bring out the WORST in a lot of people (i'm not exempting myself)... and i'm sick of having to say the same things over again merely to be ignored... i tell you guys all i can... i give you the facts... but you stick heads in the sand of government propaganda...
and milkybar shadow and thoth... thanx for the support...
-plaz out-
i'll be back though... so watch it...
Ok Moore... it may have been a cheap shot... but some of the opinons going around are downright racist and selfish... this issue seems to bring out the WORST in a lot of people (i'm not exempting myself)... and i'm sick of having to say the same things over again merely to be ignored... i tell you guys all i can... i give you the facts... but you stick heads in the sand of government propaganda...
and milkybar shadow and thoth... thanx for the support...
-plaz out-
i'll be back though... so watch it...
Chaos Butterfly
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ok... my take on this issue... well it's a bit complex, i agree with a lot of what everyone is saying, but the thing that stands out the most is the fact that these Afghanistani people left Afghanistan and came to Malaysia, a different country.
different meaning not theirs, meaning a place where they will not be persecuted, a place without the oppression of their home land... that's right they were out and they were fine. was that enough? no. they decided to come here to Australia. to me that shows that the people on board are not just political refugees, as any political refugee would be happy to be out of their situation.
granted malaysia does not have the same standard of living that australia does, but it is a lot better than the situation back in Afghanistan.
but that said, although this should not have been Australia's problem, it now is because they are in our waters. i do not know one thing about the people on that boat or the motives that they had to come here. no one can know that unless they are on the boat or have had communication with the people on board. something must be done about this, i do not know what.
there have been various ideas brought up in this thread about what should be done, espicially in light of the humanitarian aspects involved with the situation. i think that any and all aid should be given to these people short of letting them in without any reason. i would have absolutely no problem with allowing the ship to be re-supplied, and leaving personnel on board to deal with any medical situation, and sending them to any Islamic country. they do not have to go to Afghanistan, but as has been said before about them having access to any islamic asian country, i don't know the specifics of this though, but from what i have read, that is what i understand...
these are my views, they are an opinion, and i have offered a potential solution, at the moment this is all that i can give. do these "refugees" have the right to ask any more from me?
different meaning not theirs, meaning a place where they will not be persecuted, a place without the oppression of their home land... that's right they were out and they were fine. was that enough? no. they decided to come here to Australia. to me that shows that the people on board are not just political refugees, as any political refugee would be happy to be out of their situation.
granted malaysia does not have the same standard of living that australia does, but it is a lot better than the situation back in Afghanistan.
but that said, although this should not have been Australia's problem, it now is because they are in our waters. i do not know one thing about the people on that boat or the motives that they had to come here. no one can know that unless they are on the boat or have had communication with the people on board. something must be done about this, i do not know what.
there have been various ideas brought up in this thread about what should be done, espicially in light of the humanitarian aspects involved with the situation. i think that any and all aid should be given to these people short of letting them in without any reason. i would have absolutely no problem with allowing the ship to be re-supplied, and leaving personnel on board to deal with any medical situation, and sending them to any Islamic country. they do not have to go to Afghanistan, but as has been said before about them having access to any islamic asian country, i don't know the specifics of this though, but from what i have read, that is what i understand...
these are my views, they are an opinion, and i have offered a potential solution, at the moment this is all that i can give. do these "refugees" have the right to ask any more from me?
Ok guys some of you really need to look at the genuine issues here I think.
It is apparent that a lot of you have never studied Geography in much detail before.
Carrying Capacity: Anyone ever heard of this? It is the capacity of an area to accommodate a population in a sustainable manner. Yes Australia is large, and has a very low population density, but that doesn't mean shit. All estimates today that I have seen claim that Australia has either already reached, or already exceeded its carrying capacity for the simple reason that we have (comparatively) very, very little sustainable land.
So this business of "It's not like we don't have plenty of room" is rubbish in all honesty.
Another issue which I feel should be taken into account is the whole "whose responsibility is it anyway" argument. Firstly (as I understand it), the boat was within Indonesian waters, when it was spotted by an Indonesian aircraft. A Norwegian boat then picked up these people who were still in Indonesian waters, with the boat itself on its way into Indonesia. However, the boat then proceeded into Australian waters, in direct breach of our national sovereignty. It is my opinion that in this case the Australian government did what it had to. Destination aside, this boat is really not Australia’s responsibility, yes it was Australia who informed the Tampa of the problem, but this was as I understand it in relaying information for Indonesia. We advised the ship to take these people with them to Indonesia, NOT into Australia. I really question whether we should allow admittance after such a major slap in the face to our state and territory.
It's fine to get idealistic, but you really have to look at the bigger picture. Think of the implications this sort of thing can have for our government and state if it goes without intervention or some sort of punishment.
I outlined my opinions, and I thought showed ample reasoning...but
This brings me to another point which I feel is important. Possibly the most important, someone was wise enough to touch on it before, though I feel we should possibly go into it a little further. I believe I am correct that these people are from Afghanistan? You look at a map; there are an awful lot of countries a damn sight closer than Australia in which these people could have claimed a refugee status. I doubt that these people (at least the vast majority) are really refugees in the true sense of the word at all (at least in the colloquial). Doesn’t anyone else find it somewhat suspicious that these people are threatening to jump overboard if the ship goes back to Indonesia, a predominantly Muslim country (%90 or something)? It seems to me a bit naïve to envisage these people as all being poor, war-torn, displaced, sad and innocent people, who are escaping from unjust prosecution, and intolerable hardships. If these people were really like that, and were really refugees don’t you think they would go somewhere a bit closer and somewhere that requires a far less perilous and expensive journey? I tend to wonder what these people are really escaping from; they’re obviously going a hell of a long distance to get away from something.
Don’t get me wrong, I don’t doubt that some of these people are probably honest, with nothing more for their motives than trying to find a better way of life, and in many respects I am all for giving them “a fair go”, but how do you distinguish between the two? The fact of the matter is that I don’t really think you can.
Okay, that is my opinion. Disagree with me if you will, but lets try not to flame, we should be able to hold some sort of mature discussion without resorting to insults. If I got anything wrong please tell me (it wouldn’t really surprise me), but I think I got the theme at least of what I am trying to say across, so maybe lets just think about it.
It is apparent that a lot of you have never studied Geography in much detail before.
Carrying Capacity: Anyone ever heard of this? It is the capacity of an area to accommodate a population in a sustainable manner. Yes Australia is large, and has a very low population density, but that doesn't mean shit. All estimates today that I have seen claim that Australia has either already reached, or already exceeded its carrying capacity for the simple reason that we have (comparatively) very, very little sustainable land.
So this business of "It's not like we don't have plenty of room" is rubbish in all honesty.
Another issue which I feel should be taken into account is the whole "whose responsibility is it anyway" argument. Firstly (as I understand it), the boat was within Indonesian waters, when it was spotted by an Indonesian aircraft. A Norwegian boat then picked up these people who were still in Indonesian waters, with the boat itself on its way into Indonesia. However, the boat then proceeded into Australian waters, in direct breach of our national sovereignty. It is my opinion that in this case the Australian government did what it had to. Destination aside, this boat is really not Australia’s responsibility, yes it was Australia who informed the Tampa of the problem, but this was as I understand it in relaying information for Indonesia. We advised the ship to take these people with them to Indonesia, NOT into Australia. I really question whether we should allow admittance after such a major slap in the face to our state and territory.
It's fine to get idealistic, but you really have to look at the bigger picture. Think of the implications this sort of thing can have for our government and state if it goes without intervention or some sort of punishment.
I outlined my opinions, and I thought showed ample reasoning...but
But there is, unless I am quite mistaken, these "refugees" are still filling the immigration quotas into the country.
This brings me to another point which I feel is important. Possibly the most important, someone was wise enough to touch on it before, though I feel we should possibly go into it a little further. I believe I am correct that these people are from Afghanistan? You look at a map; there are an awful lot of countries a damn sight closer than Australia in which these people could have claimed a refugee status. I doubt that these people (at least the vast majority) are really refugees in the true sense of the word at all (at least in the colloquial). Doesn’t anyone else find it somewhat suspicious that these people are threatening to jump overboard if the ship goes back to Indonesia, a predominantly Muslim country (%90 or something)? It seems to me a bit naïve to envisage these people as all being poor, war-torn, displaced, sad and innocent people, who are escaping from unjust prosecution, and intolerable hardships. If these people were really like that, and were really refugees don’t you think they would go somewhere a bit closer and somewhere that requires a far less perilous and expensive journey? I tend to wonder what these people are really escaping from; they’re obviously going a hell of a long distance to get away from something.
Don’t get me wrong, I don’t doubt that some of these people are probably honest, with nothing more for their motives than trying to find a better way of life, and in many respects I am all for giving them “a fair go”, but how do you distinguish between the two? The fact of the matter is that I don’t really think you can.
Okay, that is my opinion. Disagree with me if you will, but lets try not to flame, we should be able to hold some sort of mature discussion without resorting to insults. If I got anything wrong please tell me (it wouldn’t really surprise me), but I think I got the theme at least of what I am trying to say across, so maybe lets just think about it.
Oh ye gods!
About nine posts were made in between that one I just made, stupid long arse message
So umm yeah the last message I had read when I made that was Nezo's post about 3 posts ago, so if I said anything daft because it was already covered I apologise...
_______________
Edit:
Yeah, well said apollo*, you too Chaos Butterfly.....
Shame I didn't see your posts earlier but...oh well
[This message has been edited by Mr.Happ-E (edited 30 August 2001).]
About nine posts were made in between that one I just made, stupid long arse message
So umm yeah the last message I had read when I made that was Nezo's post about 3 posts ago, so if I said anything daft because it was already covered I apologise...
_______________
Edit:
Yeah, well said apollo*, you too Chaos Butterfly.....
Shame I didn't see your posts earlier but...oh well
[This message has been edited by Mr.Happ-E (edited 30 August 2001).]