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  • AADD Moderators: swilow | Vagabond696

The Refugees, the Army and the Boat...

My sentiments exactly Chaos.
While leaving them out their to die is wrong (and better not happen!), it is stupid to illegally allow them into this country if they can legally go to another islamic country (which is where they were before they decided to try to enter Australia). Coming to Australia was a case of want, not necessity, and that makes a huge difference.
Plazma, I accept the arguement is heated, but if we resort to name calling etc. we're no better than the politicians now are we?
"i tell you guys all i can... i give you the facts... but you stick heads in the sand of government propaganda..."
when you give us the facts we draw different conclusions to you, thats life and thats human nature, you should accept this and stop wondering how people can be so different to you.
Oh, and most of us aren't beleiving or spouting government propaganda, we are simply giving you our opinions (which I don't beleive are controlled by what the government has to say).
 
christ Moore... if only everyone else who opposed what i say was like you... but unfortunately many aren't... how do you form an opinion... you listen and learn... who to you listen to... ?
"who controls the past now, controls the future, who controls the present now, controls the past"
 
Another issue which I feel should be taken into account is the whole "whose responsibility is it anyway" argument. Firstly (as I understand it), the boat was within Indonesian waters, when it was spotted by an Indonesian aircraft. A Norwegian boat then picked up these people who were still in Indonesian waters, with the boat itself on its way into Indonesia. However, the boat then proceeded into Australian waters, in direct breach of our national sovereignty. It is my opinion that in this case the Australian government did what it had to.
Click to expand...
Sorry but this is all wrong... Both the Norweigian and refugee boat were in international waters, the Australian coast guard alerted the Tampa to the refugees whereabouts and requested that they assist them. At the pickup point, the Tampa was estimated to be 12 hours from the Indonesian port and 4 hours from Christmas Island. Maratime law and the Refugee Convention of 1954 dictate that the refugees be delivered to the nearest port, which in this case was Christmas Island. Australia is effectively ignoring its obligations under international law.
It seems to me a bit naïve to envisage these people as all being poor, war-torn, displaced, sad and innocent people, who are escaping from unjust prosecution, and intolerable hardships. If these people were really like that, and were really refugees don’t you think they would go somewhere a bit closer and somewhere that requires a far less perilous and expensive journey? I tend to wonder what these people are really escaping from; they’re obviously going a hell of a long distance to get away from something.
Click to expand...
Afghanistan is currently under the control of the Taliban, whose oppresive reigeme is centered on extreme fundamentalist Islam. There are many reasons for these people to be fleeing such a nation, after all it is where two Australian missionaries are facing a possible death penalty. However regardless, their stranded location on a container ship is not the place where one is to assess their refugee status. That is for descision on land in due process. Then perhaps refugee status can be granted/rejected in an objective manner.
[This message has been edited by -Thoth (edited 30 August 2001).]
 
This is a tough tough call!!!!!!!
First of all I don't want to see these people left out on the sea....it's cruel, nasty and doesn't solve any problems.
Indonesia simply cannot afford to take these refugees (even if Howard funds it!!!!!!!).
Has anyone ever been to the streets of Kuta or been anywhere in Indonesia for that matter???????? Well anyone who supports the refugees going back there obviously knows nothing, because at least half of Indonesia are starving to say the least!!!!! and they're as overpopulated as fuck!!!!!!!
These people obviously wanted to come to Australia because they wanted a better life, we should help as much as we can, but at the same time we need to help ourselves. What about the homeless people in the city or the drug addicts who half the time don't even know how to help themselves.....or the elderly pensioners who can barely afford to live!!!!!! What if one of those people were your family!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Funny that Australia always seems to ignore things that are staring them right in their face isn't it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Someone please answer this question for me!!!! For the amount of boats that we know about that have come here in the past few months....tell me how many do you think have come here that we don't know about????????
We have to stop this somewhere otherwise the whole boat situation is going to get ridiculous (if not already) and well Christmas Island will be all Christmased out (bad attempt of light humor).
**There is no easy answer for this**
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SILENCE!!!!!!!! Your insolence will not be tolerated - Dr Evil
 
This issue is heartbreaking. It is a tragedy that the people on board the Tampa are being used by the Australian government simply to make a point.
I won't go into how I feel, except to say that I wholeheartedly agree with Thoth (you are indeed the wise one), Pundi, Shadow, Nezo and Milkybar.
I will say however that I find it very difficult to understand the lack of compassion many of you have demonstrated for those who are less fortunate than we are.
I respect your right to have differing views to my own, but encourage you to explore both sides of this issue critically. Please don't accept blindly what you hear and see in the media.
-----------------------------
On a different note....
This thread will continue to be monitored very closely. Flaming will not be tolerated.
If you want to flame, expect to have your posting privileges removed.
Be nice to each other people.
Finn
smile.gif

[This message has been edited by Finn (edited 30 August 2001).]
 
^^^ that's what i've been trying to say Finn... but they don't listen to me... oh hang on... they might listen to you cuz you're a mod...
wink.gif
 
I have partially changd my stance on the whole issue over the last day, but only partially. I think now this boat load of people should be let onto Australian soil. But only due to the big cock up we Australians have made out of this whole ordeal. The people should be let onto christmas Island to save whatever peace is left between us and norway. When the people are ashore they should be fed cleaned rested then sent on the first boat back to where they came from. Then if they would like to try their little expidition again so be it. This was a bad time for Little Johny to pick to make a stand, having other countries involved has made Australia look in the wrong when we are quite simply trying to control an increasing problem of boat people landing on our shores and expecting to be accomodated no questions asked.
If they would like to come over on their little shabby boats smuggled in by some idiot trying to smuggle people into our country so be it, but they cannot expect not to be locked in detention centres and processed as slowly as they are.
I feel for the captain of the ship and the saftey of his crew and I think the boat should be landed to end this whole ordeal. Imaging the boat started sinking who out of the 400 plus on board would get to use the life rafts for less than 50 people. Australia has made its point we are not going to let anyone just waltz on into our country but lives will be lost if this isnt finished. But to maintain our position in this situation the refugees cannot be let to stay they must be reutrned as soon as possible.
 
The irony with BCR's reply is that if we return to Afghanistan, the chance that them being shot is a very real possibility. I know this just conjecture, but extremist governments do some crazy things.
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Shut up. If I wanted to listen to an arsehole, I would have farted.
 
Sorry but this is all wrong... Both the Norweigian and refugee boat were in international waters, the Australian coast guard alerted the Tampa to the refugees whereabouts and requested that they assist them. At the pickup point, the Tampa was estimated to be 12 hours from the Indonesian port and 4 hours from Christmas Island. Maratime law and the Refugee Convention of 1954 dictate that the refugees be delivered to the nearest port, which in this case was Christmas Island. Australia is effectively ignoring its obligations under international law.
Click to expand...
My apologies, it was perhaps not Indonesian territorial waters, BUT it was in Indonesia's sea rescue zone. Which means basically the exact same thing in reference to the point I was making...
And as another note, after just watching the news the vessel was originally spotted by an Australian aircraft, so I was wrong there too I'm afraid.
But my point still stands
I'm not too sure about the refugee convention of 1954, but from the information at hand I quote "the Law of the Sea convention, written in 1982, bound signatory nations such as Australia and Indonesia to establish search and rescue co-ordination centres, but did not spell out a country's responsibilities once a rescue had been effected". That is from Tuesday’s newspaper though. So this has maybe been dug up more recently.
Though as I understand it at the present moment anyway, the legal issue currently at the fore is that because the ship is being held in Australian waters, the argument is that the boat people be given rights to the Australian migration act.
 
It was a joke.....Jesus......
Fuck I'm not saying anymore
Just Chill dudes....
BCR
[This message has been edited by BayCityRolla (edited 30 August 2001).]
 
Is it just me or does anyone see the enormous similarities between this present policy and the white australia policy of the 50's?
Also... people seem to be ignoring the fact that by far the greatest number of "illegal immigrants" here are white... they do NOT get locked up...
Plus people seem to assume that these refugees if granted residency would just bludge for the rest of their days... i do not belive this to be true...
 
I apologise for the naivety of my previous post.
But regardless of the sustainability of most of our land , it's still uninhabited space. Something Indonesia does not have. And as long as people in unfavourable living conditions know that we have space to physically fit people, they will flock here. As more & more countries become overcrowded I can only assume it will be a short time before the unsustainable land in the centre of our country will still be a better option than many of theirs.
I agree that the expantion of our nation is a process that must be undertaken slowly & gradually, through legal procedures, but as noted before I don't believe that sending these people away will be much of a deterrant to others. "Boat people" have been coming for years, and will continue to come for years.`Therefore I refuse to trivialise these peoples' lives in the name of "seeing the big picture".
Just another 0.02, sorry if I've ignored any important facts
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Fuck you Remmy...All vietnamese are violent and no good. Thankfully, the friends that i have made in Perth do not think like you. And these friends are so-called "Australians" and i am Asian.
yes, I admit that they are violent and cause trouble, Greeks, Italians, English, Africans, Msians, Singaporeans and Australians are bloody angels i suppose??
Have you ever met any other vietnamese elsewhere in the world such as in melbourne OR vietnam for example? Do you know anything about their culture? Do you even know how much vietnamese IN PERTH contribute to the economy and the amount of money that they invest? Granted a MAJORITY of YOUNG Viets decide to make trouble but does that warrant your BROAD and GENERAL sweeping statement?
I read your response on page 3 and glanced through the rest of the discussion and decided to make a comment first. I am no angel but one thing i cannot stand are racist views. So unless i have misinterpreted your statement, piss off.
*wld not bother to apologise or say anything to that effect cos i am THAT pissed off*
 
Bay City Roller,
I know your comment was made as a joke. Unfortunately this doesn't make it any more acceptable.
The thing you need to remember, is that there are people who seriously believe that the people on board the Tampa SHOULD be shot.
While I don't believe that you think this way, your comment adds nothing to this discussion. In fact it devalues the plight of these people.
It's ok but, we still love you.
smile.gif

Finn
smile.gif
 
But regardless of the sustainability of most of our land , it's still uninhabited space. Something Indonesia does not have. And as long as people in unfavourable living conditions know that we have space to physically fit people, they will flock here. As more & more countries become overcrowded I can only assume it will be a short time before the unsustainable land in the centre of our country will still be a better option than many of theirs.
I agree that the expantion of our nation is a process that must be undertaken slowly & gradually, through legal procedures, but as noted before I don't believe that sending these people away will be much of a deterrant to others. "Boat people" have been coming for years, and will continue to come for years.`Therefore I refuse to trivialise these peoples' lives in the name of "seeing the big picture".
Click to expand...
You're quite right, but I still think some measures have to be taken. That said, I am not suggesting any measures, nor saying the current ones are right.
It is a very sticky situation, and I sure am glad I ain't the Prime Minister. Mind you, this move is probably a big vote winner.
[This message has been edited by Mr.Happ-E (edited 31 August 2001).]
 
Quote
Nezo- "So tell me again why should we send them back to these countries which we both agree will treat them worse than we will?!"
Valid point dude.... sorta makes you think of what the real problem is...the cause of all of this..... The governments of those countries in which they refugees come from.... I mean its obviouse (sp?) that these governments aren't doing the best they can to improve their country in which ever respect...what be it due to corruption, greed, religion etc etc....
From that point i dont feel that we could blame the Aust govt for this situation or of the way they handle the situation because if it weren't for other governments not doint their best then we wouldn't be here talking politics instead of peakingtics...
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It is however, unfortunate that these people have become sheep/puppets of both governments (aust and foriegn country) ... but such is life....the good and the bad.... and if it weren't for bad their would be no good....
 
second hand news from a reliable source at the abc.
  • polls indicate that howard is currently the most popular prime minister in australian history. i bet he'd love to have the election now.
  • going by our population ("per capitre" is it?), we take on the second highest number of refugees a year of any country in the world. only canada takes on a higher ratio of refugees/population.
i don't believe they should be let in. i don't believe we have any reason not to let them in.
i have nothing more to say.
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wisest is he who knows that he does not know...
 
this all begs the question: what do we do about religions and traditional ways of life that many have lived by for centuries, but that we see as inhumane?
 
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