The Refugees, the Army and the Boat...

[-Thoth]

Fry-d- is that a statement of fact, or merely your assumtion. Such views strike me as defeatist, and the poor basis for any excuse. Study your politics and history, and you will see how narrow that is...
The fact is, many nations are poor due to them being stuck in a cycle of crippling debt to richer nations. Within Iraq people are starving due to trade sanctions, a move we employ to disloge Saddam and protect western oil interests (It is interesting to note that throughout the 80's America supplied Hussein with arms and money in order to fight a pointless war with Iran, they pretty much created the guy). Within Iraq, people are dying due to lack of essential trade resources. Consequently, they are trying their best to leave in an effort to survive. There is no Australian embassy within Iraq at which to apply for refugee status via the 'proper channels.' They come here, fleeing from the conditions our government helped to create in their homeland only to be turned away because apparently they are a 'drain on our resources.'
Please, this is not the "way the world is" this is quite simply self-serving politics and greed. These are people for God's sake. There is ALWAYS another solution. In our own way, we created the refugee problem in the first place... It seems we are hardly taking even some minimal responsibility for our actions.
[This message has been edited by -Thoth (edited 29 August 2001).]

 

[cancle]

The fact is, many nations are poor due to them being stuck in a cycle of crippling debt to richer nations.

What we need is a global jubilee year.

 

[MíkeySåmmy]

the real question is, do you want the government deciding who gets into Australia or the people smugglers who make a living this way..
a lot of the people are genuine refugees.. but we dont know who these people are.. theres a possibility that some of these people are criminals escaping the authorities in their countries. they have arrived without papers or anything.
its a tough situation and theres no easy answer.

 

[PsychoKitten]

a round of applause for the above post

and the one below, nice to know I'm actually listened to

[This message has been edited by PsychoKitten (edited 29 August 2001).]

 

[plazma]

ok i'm going to take some advice and step back a little...
mikeysammy... this is the government that gave us the GST... opposes gay marriage... and refuses to acknowledge the stolen generation... in point of fact... no i do not think they have the right to play god... and about the criminals... our justice system works on the principle that one is innocent until proven guilty...
[This message has been edited by plazma (edited 29 August 2001).]

 

[-Thoth]

People smugglers are just like drug traffickers... They spring up to exploit an ecinomic market. You cannot stop the people smugglers any more than you can win the war on drugs. The answer is to properly deal with the problem.
I agree this is a difficult situation to solve, and there is no 'magic bullet.' However in this instance, the governments actions seem remarkably callous... At the very least there are many on the ship that require urgent medical attention, 3 of them at last count were not responding to external stimulus and most are suffering from chronic dysentry. If you were the captain, would you not make an executive descision to preserve the lives of those onboard? Lets not forget, this ship is being essentially punished for following the law of the high seas and attending to a vessel in distress.
It seems as though the captain of this ship has more balls than our entire parliament.
Things like this depress the hell out of me.
[This message has been edited by -Thoth (edited 29 August 2001).]

 

[cancle]

Plazma- The veiws of our prime minister do not necessarily reflect the veiw of our goverment, they are different things.
And, if you are so busy criticising things, why don't you offer some solutions or suggestions.

 

[plazma]

i was referring to the views of the government cancle... and especially the honorable mr phillip ruddock MP...
solutions... like i said before... read my posts... there are solutions... but i'll reiterate... these people are probably educated... we need more educated people... doctors, teachers, etc... that's why these people are fleeing from the taliban and saddam hussein... hence we should accept them...

 

[simm]

what do you thinke of the missionaries arrested by the taliban for preaching christianity? it's wrong and they should be allowed to do that?
what do you think of the 440+ afgani refugee's on the tampa? these people should return to their own country?
i think i see some hypocrasy emerging.

 

[cancle]

Plazma-

this is the government that gave us the GST... opposes gay marriage... and refuses to acknowledge the stolen generation

I didn't know phillip ruddock felt this way.
The goverment has a responsibility to do what the majority of people want. Yes, it can be frustrating when you think it is the wrong thing to do but, you have to live with it.
I don't feel educated enough to pass a sensible opion but, Australia can only support about 22-23 million people. We are mostly desert. Yes, most of the people on the boat are educated, it costs a fucking shitload to pay to be smuggled to a country.
It would suck to be stuck on the boat.

 

[simm]

the government has not only the represent the public, but also to represent morality.
kim beazly correctly points out that what the goverment is doing at the moment is not illegal... but accepting the refugees would also be legal, and moral

 

[simm]

Q: What negative affects could result from allowing refugees into australia?
an increase in crime? these people fought for freedom and and justice in their countries.
saturation of our anglo-celtic population? are you afraid of multiculturalism?

 

[Mr.Happ-E]

I'm very much in two minds about this whole issue.
One reason is that relatives of mine have been trying for years and years to legally gain entrance to Australia. They are educated, they have money (what I mean by that, is that they will not be living off welfare), they already have large numbers of relatives living here, but despite all this they have had to sit in a very long queue, for a very long time.
They currently live in Africa, and their situation is getting steadily worse.
It seems very galling to me, for people to come in and "skip the queue" so to speak.
Some I realise are probably genuinely "deserving" I suppose, for lack of a better term. But as has been raised, if these people are running away, especially from their families and homelands when they are often coming from cultures which have extremely tightly knit family groups. It is I feel, very idealistic to assume that that they are not necessarily escaping from a fairly considerable crime.
I guess the old saying speaks true, "Nothing's a tragedy until it's your own tragedy". Hard to say what I would think of this if it wasn't such a personal issue.
One thing I will say though, although I haven't been home long tonight, and haven't as of yet had much of a chance to catch up with the news; so I am speaking from a less well informed position than is preferable. But it certainly seems to me, that our government has not handled this incident well at all. For foreign affairs sake if for no other.
But I might have a look at the situation in more detail then get back to you

[This message has been edited by Mr.Happ-E (edited 29 August 2001).]

 

[Bubbles]

ok, plazma. i agree that lot of these people have a genuine need for asylum here. The Australian government is accomodating to these cases. For example, how many 1000's of refugees did we accept during the Bosnian war a couple of years ago. They were people with a genuine need for asylum. We accept 1000s of other genuine cases every year. Are you forgetting that??
That's just it - the australian government, and the people of Australia, accepts those with a genuine need for refuge. But why should we accept every person that lands on aur shores, when a vast majority of them do NOT have a genuine need for asylum? i bet you didn't know that many of the 1000s of refugees that come here every year have been offered asylum in other countries, but refused it.
It is the government's responsibility to protect the citizens of Australia above all else, and for that reason, they simply can NOT let just anyone into our society.
These people are put in mandatory detention so that their cases can be assessed. There's good reason for this - cause we don't want dangerous people in our society. Would you want someone who's comitted murder living near you? What about someone who inspires violence?
Here's something else for you to think about plazma - hundreds of millions of dollars are spent every year in keeping these people in detention. That money could be going into our medicare system or education. It could go into aged care, or community services, or Centrelink - to help Australians that are in need.
A good percentage of the racial violence that we see in our communities is provoked by things that are happening on the other side of the world. I've seen this first hand, and why should I have to put up with that simply because these people are bringing their conflicts here.
I'm rambling a little, but i want to make it clear to you plazma that the Australian Governemnt looks after Australian Citizens first. This is our country not a big fucking refugee camp. If you think all these people should be let in - you pay for it, and you protect me, my family, my friends and my community from those of them that are dangerous.
[This message has been edited by Bubbles (edited 29 August 2001).]

 

[Fry-d-]

Exactly

 

[plazma]

I am sad that many of my fellow bluelighters do not have enough compassion

I am angry that so few choose to look past the propaganda >

I am inspired by the few that have compassion

Rest assured that history will judge us... and one day people will look back and condemn what is being perpetrated...
[This message has been edited by plazma (edited 29 August 2001).]

 

[Wet Musik]

Plazma, do u want Australia to become a nation that every other country and the people in them see that we are an easy option.
If we let these people in, we will get every person who is currently unhappy with life in their country, think, well Australia let 420 refugee's in, and they didn't even have to make it to Australian waters.
Why is all the pressure on Australia to take them anyway? Indonesia also has some responsiblity in this matter, but they get over looked to take these refugess?
The Government are doing the Austrlian public a favour for the future in not allowing this ship to drop off its unwanted passengers on our shores, i think its the right stance to take.
------------------
Bars.

 

[-Thoth]

I don't know, this is an issue of polarised viewpoints that is spiced by divisive race issues that inevitably are difficult to resolve.
Sometimes I think though, for every overloaded boat of people clinging to some vain hope that makes it here... How many fall victim to the seas and sink without a trace? This is a serious humanitarian problem that needs descisive action. Currently we are washing our hands of this problem, yet I fear that this is neither going to prevent asylum seekers arriving nor remedy their situation.
Perhaps if our nation better engaged in dialogue with the UN human-rights council instead of admonishing it, potential solutions could be worked through. We have to face the realities of Australias geographic location, and work to establish an international treaty-body with respect to dealing with refugees. Too often it is only the NGO's speaking out on these issues. Honestly, we can't keep pretending that this is not a problem we should have to deal with.
Australia used to have one of the most prestigious human-rights records and a reputation for upholding many ethical charters relating to international law. Lately this has slid dramatically, most notably with respect this and the previous governments cynical dealings with the UN on indigenous issues and the complicity Australia showed via the Indonesias inital and continued occupation of East Timor. Too often when Australia is accused of not acting in accordance with human rights by the international community, we point the finger at a bigger offender like China in order to excuse our actions. Such a rationale for our inactivity is not valid nor does it solve anything.
Either we can be proactive in finding solutions or we can simply founder down the same path, constantly passing the buck.
It is true that the governments primary job is to look after Australian citezens first, yet this comes from a government eager to involve itself in the free-trade 'globalisation' movement. It seems that while we view ourselves fit to join the global village and liberalise borders, we refuse to accept that this can extend to humanitarian concerns as well.
I think in many instances, our priorites are fucked right up. Awkward crises like this one seem to be symtomatic of this.
[This message has been edited by -Thoth (edited 29 August 2001).]

 

[De Quincey]

should they stay? yes, if they are genuine refugees. no, if they're just scamming their way in.
i don't know how much the government knows about where these people came from. maybe they've been tracking them and are sure they're just dodgy, hence won't let them into Aussie waters. or maybe they're just being pricks.
if they (the Federal Govt) don't know anything about the origins of this particular boatload, then i think we have a humanitarian responsibility to take them in until they can be assessed. some of these people are sick. i don't want blood on the hands of my country.
that is all.

 

[Pleonastic]

While I'd love to be involved in this debate, I'm afraid I can't be because this is one of the rare ones where I can't form an opinion. I agree with both sides, and if I chose to could argue pasionatly for either point of view. My mind is too torn between the sides that all I can add to the debate is "thank god it's not up to me".
Hopefully the story will have a happy ending, but for the life of me I can't tell who's right.