And "isoquinoline alkaloid of opium" are the NON-narcotic alkaloids in opium (morphine and codeine being the 2 narcotic alkaloids in opium). And even if they were narcotics, subsection (3) is still not authority for a pure hydrocodone pill being in schedule III.
-
OD Moderators: Keif’ Richards | Tryptamino
The hydrocodone controversy from lies to truth.
- Thread starter ChronicPAIN
- Start date
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Crimson Cloud
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Nope. Hydrocodone is derived from thebaine.ChronicPAIN said:
Chronic, you are misunderstanding the wording of the document you have provided. It doesn't prove anyone wrong, except for yourself.
Actually, this is really funny
. You have made yourself look like quite an ass. Please continue, I rarely laugh these days...
Negro-kitty
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This is by far the most intelligent and relevant comment in the entire thread...and absolutely true.
The only reasons there are APAP in opiate containing meds:
-legal/logistical reasons as others have explained
-to prevent (vainly of course) abuse
Although it is much more the former.
There is no good medical reason to combine APAP with hydrocodone. There is zero synergy or potentiation. APAP is utterly worthless as a painkiller compared to hydrocodone; the effects of the hydrocodone greatly overwhelm the effects of the APAP.
Well said, Negro-kitty. I don't claim to know eveything about every drug. I wouldn't know the first thing about lighting a joint, and I am clueless about stuff like X. But when it comes to opiates and the laws regarding them, I know quite a lot about this stuff... not to toot my own horn though.
I would disagree with one thing you said, Negro-kitty. The cynical truth is that the APAP is added to prevent abuse (which is why it becomes a "less abusive" schedule 3. So, it's the latter, not the former of the two reasons you mentioned. But everything else you said is dead on (of course it was, b/c you were quoting me LOL).
Anyway, Debates like this one are good because the truth will come out eventually and that helps people use drugs more safely. So mods, please don't close this thread until the answer is absolutely, unequivocally, proved and accepted by all.
Tyelnol is poison. I'd rather shoot dilaudid than take APAP. Seriously. The former, while surely more addictive, is a much safer drug. It can hook you, but it won't kill you (unless you don't practice safe injection routines or use way too high a dose. Learn before you try new, powerful things. I wish they'd teach first graders this stuff, rather than blabbering about how all drugs are all bad. The world is more complicated than that. Like fire, it is good but bad things can happen if used improperly.... but is anyone saying we should all "say no" to fire? Let's educate rather than propogandize bullshit.
So let's summarize the facts here.
1) APAP does not potentiate hydrocodone (nor any other opiate/opioid for that matter), nor does ibuprofen.
2) A pure hydrocodone pill, whether 1mg or 1000mg, is schedule II;
3) Up to 15mg of hydrocodone combined with certain other non-narcotic substances that are toxic in high doses can be excepted from schedule II and move over to schedule III.
ONLY HYDROCODONE COMBINED WITH OTHER STUFF (in other words, NOT PURE HYDROCODONE) and less than 15mg hydro per dose will fall into the schedule III exception.
Look, I'm a modest guy, I hate flame wars, and I know i'm relatively new here, but I'm *extremely* familiar with the controlled substances act, in particular the regulation of opiates/opioids within the statute. I will bet $100 cash that any pure hydrocodone pill, regardless of strength, is a schedule II. Of course, by "pure" we all mean not combined with anything else (except inactive ingredients such as binders like cornstarch and artificial colors).
I can honestly say there is no drug I know more about than opiates/opioids, both chemically, legally, and how they effect the body.
Mods: please don't lock this thread until we're all in agreement here. I think debate is a good thing, and it's the only way to arrive at the correct answer (which at this point should be quite clear). For some reason, opiates seem to be the most misunderstood of all drugs, and that's a real shame, because they're the most wonderful, safest (tylenol aside), effective medication we have.
I would disagree with one thing you said, Negro-kitty. The cynical truth is that the APAP is added to prevent abuse (which is why it becomes a "less abusive" schedule 3. So, it's the latter, not the former of the two reasons you mentioned. But everything else you said is dead on (of course it was, b/c you were quoting me LOL).
Anyway, Debates like this one are good because the truth will come out eventually and that helps people use drugs more safely. So mods, please don't close this thread until the answer is absolutely, unequivocally, proved and accepted by all.
Tyelnol is poison. I'd rather shoot dilaudid than take APAP. Seriously. The former, while surely more addictive, is a much safer drug. It can hook you, but it won't kill you (unless you don't practice safe injection routines or use way too high a dose. Learn before you try new, powerful things. I wish they'd teach first graders this stuff, rather than blabbering about how all drugs are all bad. The world is more complicated than that. Like fire, it is good but bad things can happen if used improperly.... but is anyone saying we should all "say no" to fire? Let's educate rather than propogandize bullshit.
So let's summarize the facts here.
1) APAP does not potentiate hydrocodone (nor any other opiate/opioid for that matter), nor does ibuprofen.
2) A pure hydrocodone pill, whether 1mg or 1000mg, is schedule II;
3) Up to 15mg of hydrocodone combined with certain other non-narcotic substances that are toxic in high doses can be excepted from schedule II and move over to schedule III.
ONLY HYDROCODONE COMBINED WITH OTHER STUFF (in other words, NOT PURE HYDROCODONE) and less than 15mg hydro per dose will fall into the schedule III exception.
Look, I'm a modest guy, I hate flame wars, and I know i'm relatively new here, but I'm *extremely* familiar with the controlled substances act, in particular the regulation of opiates/opioids within the statute. I will bet $100 cash that any pure hydrocodone pill, regardless of strength, is a schedule II. Of course, by "pure" we all mean not combined with anything else (except inactive ingredients such as binders like cornstarch and artificial colors).
I can honestly say there is no drug I know more about than opiates/opioids, both chemically, legally, and how they effect the body.
Mods: please don't lock this thread until we're all in agreement here. I think debate is a good thing, and it's the only way to arrive at the correct answer (which at this point should be quite clear). For some reason, opiates seem to be the most misunderstood of all drugs, and that's a real shame, because they're the most wonderful, safest (tylenol aside), effective medication we have.
ChronicPAIN
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Ok try this. Call your pharmacist monday. tell him this. That you got some Lortabs 10/500's and that you have a months supplie, tell him that your docter switched you to Lorcet 10/650, and ask him if your insurance will will still pay for it to be filled.. cause I know from medicade that they will only fill a perscription if it's early, is if the new prescription is stronger then the one you have..
ChronicPAIN
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- Nov 22, 2003
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If he tells you no that it's the same stength then i'll leave it be.
negrogesic
Bluelight Crew
I think the only thing we can agree on is that this person is incapable or too close-minded to be involved in a rational debate. Hydrocodone made from codeine, tylenol potentiates opiates? All of this is false here-say and conjecture. This is like convincing some e-tard that there is in fact no heroin in their triple stack mitsubishis (yea I know, PMA ).
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I agree. ChronicPAIN that website you showed was legitimate but by no means very technical and detailed, it was more of a guide for unknowledgeable people taking hydrocodone for pain. You misread it man, never did it say apap helps potentiate the effects of hydrocodone, it simply states that it helps make the medicine more effective at pain killing, apap does kill pain after all but not recreationally. But no way does it even imply that it increases and potentiates the effects of hydrocodone. I can't believe you are so relentless dude, you have been proven utterly wrong on most things you have said, and by some very knowledgeable bluelighters who get information from far more technical sources than webmd and the like. I really can't fathom how you are so adament about your misunderstandings. Maybe read over this thread a couple times with an open mind and perhaps you will see it....
negrogesic
Bluelight Crew
^^^For some reason, i think the person is a woman, not to be sexist, but it would explain a few things............
PattyOC14me
Bluelighter
I think most of us would agree that hydrocodone in large doses is just really freakin good.:D %)
Night night
Patty
Night night
Patty
Negro-kitty
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The guy is most definitely NOT a woman!!
Mean negrogesic.
Mean negrogesic.
Crimson Cloud
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LOL @ negrogesic! (no offense kitty
)
)
twgburst
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- Mar 6, 2003
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- 896
I just wanted to post the truth, but of course you have to be Mr.Know-it-all, even though you don't know dick. If you took half the time you took posting researching about hydrocodone, you would know that your full of shit. You can make fun of my spelling all you want, but I'm not the one making myself look like a newbie with every post arguing the schedule of hydrocodone. Just cause you read your entire DARE pamphlet doesn't make you an expert, so why don't you stop arguing with people that know more about the subject than you. You really are embarrassing yourself.ChronicPAIN said:
Crimson Cloud
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I beleive YOU were the one to prove yourself wrong. Kudos oh smart one.ChronicPAIN said:
K'dOUTinAZ
Bluelighter
ChronicPain, just give it up dude. You are obviouslly wrong and we have ALL known that from the very first post. I have not been afraid to post on this thread because of negrogesic, I have just refrained because you (ChronicPain) have been acting in ignorance with a very closed-mind, not to mention very contradicting of yourself. Your website provided is very simple knowledge for beginners and you can choose to stay on that level but you have to understand that there are some far more knowledgable bluelighters when it comes to opioid information.
ChronicPAIN
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lol.. yea twgburst.. I know dick ..and it's you..your one of those speed readers aren't you.. show me from my first post what your talking about and I'll show you that you didn't read my entire post.. well I can see that everyone hear knows so much about opiods.. even though I have been taking them for over 5 years every single day in high quantities.. see unlike the masses on here, who worry that because they have been abusing opiods for SO long, (btw, I would hate to see your guy's drug bills.. wow) I don't really have to go read a bunch of Bullshit post by a bunch of bullshit artist to know whats what.. If I want information on a drug and if I want to know how it works,
then I just call my doctor and ask him to write me a script. and if it's schedule III then I go pick it up from the pharmacy.. and if it's a schedule II then I go to my doctor and pick up the script.
I do not have to go to a clinic cause I was taking duragesic patches off of poor litte cats and dogs that had just been operated on by the vet I'm working for.. or steel his morphine to go shoot it up in the car on lunch break. I have never worked for a vet but can you guys guess who it is?
obviously you guy's have only read the dare pamplet so why do you think your experts.. but so be it.. I told kalt_kalt to call his pharmacy and ask him a simple question and I'd shut up.. all he had to do was make a post monday and just "claiming" he called his pharmy. and I would have just shut up (no matter if he really called or now).. but I have finally figured it out what there problem is.. They realize that there is a very serious possablity that I may be right and they want to convince me that I'm wrong so that they can sleep better at night feeling all comfy in know for sure finally that they are right simple by making me give up my thoughts.. I mean Kalt_ Kalt made a post saying that fenatanyl is a medication that you should not fuck with.. guess he is afraid of it.. obviously he is such an expert knowing this med will kill you.. I guess if you where to eat 10 mgs you would drop dead right kalt..? this medication scares the shit out of you.. well guess what.. a real opiod user would not drop dead from that much.. This I know.. negrogesic knows it to.. look at his name so close to duragesic (for all of you who don't know thats the duragesic transdermal system, it's fentanyl)
And all of you who claim about the pure hydrocodone tablet they do make that you have to go to a special pharmacy to get.. what do you guys call it?
but trusty me its bullshit.. I use to get a script written every month for hydrocodone 10mgs for 150. 5 times a day as needed.. and I asked about it like 5 months ago, the doctor and the parmaciset.
Now something else that's interesting to know and to look at on the contolled scheduling rules that I gave you to look at go down and look at the rules under shcedule V for narcotics. The rules there say that , and this is stated right at the top, not in the line with the narcotic as it does in narcotics scheduled III where it is listed in rule (4)
where it says in rule (3) that you do not have to have a non- narcotic mixer.
Taken from the scheduling page I gave you
"Schedule V narcotics containing non-narcotic active medicinal ingrediats
a compound, mixture, or preparation containing limited quantitis of any of the following narcotic drugs that also contain one or more nonnarcotic active medicinal ingredients in sufficient proportion to confer on the compoind, mixture or preparation valuable medicinal qualitis other than those possessed by the narcotic drug alone"
so forth and so on about list the milligrams.. but under shcedule V it leaves no room for contravesy at all .. in the top line before listing the medications, it tells you that these have to be combined.. so why not do this in schedule three narcotics? interesting?
so now here it says that you HAVE to combine all of these drugs with something if they are to fall under schedule V like 200 milligrams of codeine, no where here does it say
like in schedule three about codeine,
not more that 1.8 grams of codeine, or any of its salts, per 100 milliliters or not more than 90 milligrams per dosage unit, with an equal or greater quantitiy of an isoquinoline alkaloid of opium;(different expectations for codeine then hydrocodone on the number of isoquinoline rings expected.
btw that says it can be a pure codeine tablet as long as it doesn't contain more then 1.8 grams of codeine.. oh thats right that doesn't say that does in kalt kalt is says it has to be mixed with something doesn't it.. ( you know that is false.. Its talking about the puratiy of the codeine, and if your as well read as you say then you would know this.. you didn't though..) but we are going to assume that thats not what it is saying.. then why do they put it under rule (2) as saying point blank that on rule to you can make it schedule three if you mix it with a nonnarcotic ingredients in recognized therapeutic amounts;
why the two different rules to say the same thing as you claim.. why not just right the law the same way they did in schedule V.. interesting.. why would they do that so different.. your so smart explain it.. And I know your going to make up some bullshit answer just like earlier when I showed you that you where wrong but hey.. that's ok.. so tell me what rule one is saying.. what is it then
"isoquinoline alkaloid of opium" a non-narcotic?? is that what you told me earlier.. well if so what kinda non-narcotic is it then.. because its refearing to somthing specific.. funny, you say one time that isoquinoline ment non-narcotic.. and I never said what it ment,then I gave you the right info on it. I said it was a ring that you find in opium.. then you tried to tell me that alkaloid ment non-narcotic
not tylenol.. that would be under rule 4 where it said with one or more active nonnarcotic ingredients in recognized therapeutic amount..
inturesting how in rule 4 it says it has to me active.. well tylenol and all is active but in rule 3 .. what ever they are talking about (even though I explained what it ment.. you told me I was wrong) it doesn't have to be active.. inturesting.. isn't it.. seeing how all medications contain non-active ingrediants.. interesting..
Guess I'm dead.. negrogesic must be too.. that's umm false info man..Maybe it's true for you less experienced and knowledgable addicts..
If I listened to you then I never would have had the best opiod buzz of my life. . now I was on duragesic 75's and was taking 4 percocet number 10's a day for pain.
never tried fentanyl have ya? also you can take about 40mgs of methadone and have a really good buzz all day long. if your new to it . I'd
have to take about 15 percocet a day to get this kinda buzz.. Sorry 2.5 mgs of fentanyl will give you the buzz of probably about 4 number 10 percs.. and then some.
also, just to let you know.. there are alkaloids in a ton of plants.. while you are right that not all of them are narcotic.. we where talking about "alkaloinds of opium" which are mostly narcotic.. the ones that are not usually result in death.. there toxic.. highly
here is a decent sight for some better understanding for you
Morphine and Opium Alkaloids
domin.dom.edu/faculty/jbfriese/alkaloid/Opium_Alkaloids/Morphine.html
now you can you look at this page which covers alot of alkaloids but the one we are looking at (because we are looking at the alkaloids of opium)
The morphine alkaloids, which comes from the Papaver somniferum, which is opium poppy. or as the The Sumerians called it Hul Gil, 'flower of joy.'
So you will see that "isoquinoline alkaloid of opium" are quite narcotic.. while there are other alkoloids as you will see from this site (Opium contains about 24 alkaloids, but only 2, morphine and codeine, have much clinical use) so by what you have said that they have to either combine it with a non- narcotic (as per section 4, which I agree with.) you really need to study the secound statement I posted from the drug scheduling III section (3) because this has obviously confused you.. but unlike the others you have atleast looked at it.. but you realy need to look at the wording.. and look at the way narcotic scheduling under section V, and you will see that they word it in such a way as to leave no room for doubt.. If things where like you say they where then they would have worded scheduling III the same way.. but anyway this will educate you on the isquinoline alkaloid of opium (that site I just gave you) and please note that it says "of opium" means from the opium plant. you can't combine the hydrocodone with the alkaloid of another plant.. it has to be of the opium plant.. just read and understand
another good sight but you need to go down to the section where it say's the alkaloids of morphine, then it gives the plant name.
www.people.vcu.edu/~asneden/alkaloids.htm
negro. I appreciate you bringing your butt monkies to post here but twgburst's first post showed that he has not fully read this post.. or he would have some idea of what we are posting on.. not just a few words off the scheduling pages.. but multiple sections of the schduling laws. we have posted on chemical make up. .. among other things.. No one has showed me anything.. other then go look at my pages that I posted and said oh you read it wrong.. I believe you guys have read it wrong.(if you have even read it, or else you would be looking for other sites to prove me wrong cause there is no way that I got it wrong). so what I can make that argument.. that's to easy.. now show me where this law said it has to be combined with no exceptions! like I just told you to look under schedule V to show you where it says it has to be combined with somthing else for codeine .. no exceptions
this is scheduling III expecially for you people who have not fully read the post because you knew this was wrong when you got in to this thread.. and you just knew this because this as been argued over before.. these are two seperate laws concerning the use of hydrcodone and the exceptions of how to make it a schedule III narcotic
(3) 300 milligrams of dihydrocodeine (hydrocodone), or any of its salts, per 100 milliliters or not more than 15 milligrams per dosage unit, with a fourfold or greater quanity of an isoquinoline alkaloid of opium;
this does not say it has to be combined with anything.
(4) not more than 300 milligrams of dihydrocodeinone (hydrocodone), or any of its salts, per 100 milliliters or not more that 15 milligrams per dosage unit, with one or more active, NONNARCOTIC ingredients in recognized therapeutic amounts;
(4) not more than 300 milligrams of dihydrocodeinone (hydrocodone), or any of its salts, per 100 milliliters or not more that 15 milligrams per dosage unit, with one or more active, NONNARCOTIC ingredients in recognized therapeutic amounts; now I'll break this down for you on what this statement means and there are two pages up there that will help you understand this, I know it's going to be hard for some of you.
now this said it 15 mgs hydrocodone with one or more ACTIVE, nonnarcotic ingredients. law 3 does not say that it is combined with anything active or nothing about another ingredient.. What it does say is that it has to have a fourfold (which means 4 times) or greater quantity (or more then four times) of an isoquinoline (this is a isoquinoline ring, in the chemical structure, that is found in such medications as morphine, codeine, hydrocodone etc... look at the first page I posted with domain.dom to see this in ring in morphine just go down to the structure of morphine and read the stuff up under the structure.) alkaloid (also refear to either page to see this. (I have put a definition futher down of alkaloids) it will tell you what the alkaloids of opium are) of opium(this is what tells us where to look for these rings. that you are comparing to, in this case opium)
so in other words on a chemical structure level. the hydrocodone has to have four times the number of isoquinoline then whats found in opium.
here is a site that tells you about isoquinoline
www.books.md/I/dic/isoquinoline.php
keep this in mind when you look at the first page I gave you about opium. as this is a defanition of isoquinoline taken from an online page.
[url]www.books.md/A/dic/alkaloids.php[/URL]
this is the true defanition of alkaloids,
now kalt_kalt you will really know what these words that are confusing you mean.. as your definitions you gave me earlier where way off..
this is what you said "And "isoquinoline alkaloid of opium" are the NON-narcotic alkaloids in opium (morphine and codeine being the 2 narcotic alkaloids in opium). And even if they were narcotics, subsection (3) is still not authority for a pure hydrocodone pill being in schedule III."
now if this statement where true then why do you find these isoquinoline rings in morpheine? because its simple.. there in all kinds or alkoloids that come from plants.. but you need to pay attention to what the usable alkaloids are in opium and as the statement is made we are looking at the alkaloids in opium. if you look at the law under schedule III for codein you only need the number of isoquinoline alkaloid of opium to be equal to opium, why, cause codeine and morphine are pulled straight from the plant these are refered to as "naturals", where others like hydrocodone are made from these "natural" opiods..
because the others are derived from the naturals they contain more of these isquinoline rings. atleast four in the case of hydrocodone. If there are any non narcotic drugs dirived from opium ( "isoquinoline alkaloid of opium" does not mean these, you really need to read these pages to stop spreading these lies) then that would have to be posted in the law, that these non narcotic opium derivatives, have to be used .. but pretty much from what I have gathered, (while not really possible as most of the other drugs they pull from opium are toxic, other then very addictive anxiety medications(which is narcotic and a derivative of morphine), which have been outlawed as they where to addictive and there where other less addictive medications that could be used.. why take an anti-anxiety medication thats as addictive as morpheine.. And there is a tranquilizer they make from it that they use on large animals.. elephants.. just an example) any of these other alkaloids have high levels of toxic chemicals in them.. so they would kill you pretty much.
ok last thing here.. as if you look at the information I have given you.. and you truely want to get to the truth as you claim then you will see that allot of the statements you have made are incorrect. I honesly believe by how inacurate your statement where you went and tried to just look up a few of these words and pulled a conclusion together with out truely doing any research.. not to be insulting.. but you are positive you know something and went and looked at these things in the wrong context, and it seemed to make sense for what you wanted.. but you have to really read and get to the fact of the matter.. also here is a sight about alkaloids.. there are all kinds.
www.botanical-online.com/alcaloidesangles.htm#LIST
ok here is the last thing on the tylenol thing and if you don't want to agree then that's ok but if you look down through this page it says that it increases the effects of hydrocodone.. scroll down to the part with the heading "What is acetaminophen and hydrocodone?".. It does not say it potentiate the narcotic (and I didn't say that) what it does say is this
Acetaminophen is a less potent pain reliever that increases the effects of hydrocodone.
go look where I said
my.webmd.com/content/drugs/1/4046_1371.htm?lastselectedguid={5FE84E90-BC77-4056-A91C-9531713CA348}
sorry Its taken me so long.. coming down with the flu I think.. went and had a flu shot the other day, so much for that shot.. told my GF that these didn't work to good.. lol
then I just call my doctor and ask him to write me a script. and if it's schedule III then I go pick it up from the pharmacy.. and if it's a schedule II then I go to my doctor and pick up the script.
I do not have to go to a clinic cause I was taking duragesic patches off of poor litte cats and dogs that had just been operated on by the vet I'm working for.. or steel his morphine to go shoot it up in the car on lunch break. I have never worked for a vet but can you guys guess who it is?
obviously you guy's have only read the dare pamplet so why do you think your experts.. but so be it.. I told kalt_kalt to call his pharmacy and ask him a simple question and I'd shut up.. all he had to do was make a post monday and just "claiming" he called his pharmy. and I would have just shut up (no matter if he really called or now).. but I have finally figured it out what there problem is.. They realize that there is a very serious possablity that I may be right and they want to convince me that I'm wrong so that they can sleep better at night feeling all comfy in know for sure finally that they are right simple by making me give up my thoughts.. I mean Kalt_ Kalt made a post saying that fenatanyl is a medication that you should not fuck with.. guess he is afraid of it.. obviously he is such an expert knowing this med will kill you.. I guess if you where to eat 10 mgs you would drop dead right kalt..? this medication scares the shit out of you.. well guess what.. a real opiod user would not drop dead from that much.. This I know.. negrogesic knows it to.. look at his name so close to duragesic (for all of you who don't know thats the duragesic transdermal system, it's fentanyl)
And all of you who claim about the pure hydrocodone tablet they do make that you have to go to a special pharmacy to get.. what do you guys call it?
but trusty me its bullshit.. I use to get a script written every month for hydrocodone 10mgs for 150. 5 times a day as needed.. and I asked about it like 5 months ago, the doctor and the parmaciset.
Now something else that's interesting to know and to look at on the contolled scheduling rules that I gave you to look at go down and look at the rules under shcedule V for narcotics. The rules there say that , and this is stated right at the top, not in the line with the narcotic as it does in narcotics scheduled III where it is listed in rule (4)
where it says in rule (3) that you do not have to have a non- narcotic mixer.
Taken from the scheduling page I gave you
"Schedule V narcotics containing non-narcotic active medicinal ingrediats
a compound, mixture, or preparation containing limited quantitis of any of the following narcotic drugs that also contain one or more nonnarcotic active medicinal ingredients in sufficient proportion to confer on the compoind, mixture or preparation valuable medicinal qualitis other than those possessed by the narcotic drug alone"
so forth and so on about list the milligrams.. but under shcedule V it leaves no room for contravesy at all .. in the top line before listing the medications, it tells you that these have to be combined.. so why not do this in schedule three narcotics? interesting?
so now here it says that you HAVE to combine all of these drugs with something if they are to fall under schedule V like 200 milligrams of codeine, no where here does it say
like in schedule three about codeine,
not more that 1.8 grams of codeine, or any of its salts, per 100 milliliters or not more than 90 milligrams per dosage unit, with an equal or greater quantitiy of an isoquinoline alkaloid of opium;(different expectations for codeine then hydrocodone on the number of isoquinoline rings expected.
btw that says it can be a pure codeine tablet as long as it doesn't contain more then 1.8 grams of codeine.. oh thats right that doesn't say that does in kalt kalt is says it has to be mixed with something doesn't it.. ( you know that is false.. Its talking about the puratiy of the codeine, and if your as well read as you say then you would know this.. you didn't though..) but we are going to assume that thats not what it is saying.. then why do they put it under rule (2) as saying point blank that on rule to you can make it schedule three if you mix it with a nonnarcotic ingredients in recognized therapeutic amounts;
why the two different rules to say the same thing as you claim.. why not just right the law the same way they did in schedule V.. interesting.. why would they do that so different.. your so smart explain it.. And I know your going to make up some bullshit answer just like earlier when I showed you that you where wrong but hey.. that's ok.. so tell me what rule one is saying.. what is it then
"isoquinoline alkaloid of opium" a non-narcotic?? is that what you told me earlier.. well if so what kinda non-narcotic is it then.. because its refearing to somthing specific.. funny, you say one time that isoquinoline ment non-narcotic.. and I never said what it ment,then I gave you the right info on it. I said it was a ring that you find in opium.. then you tried to tell me that alkaloid ment non-narcotic
not tylenol.. that would be under rule 4 where it said with one or more active nonnarcotic ingredients in recognized therapeutic amount..
inturesting how in rule 4 it says it has to me active.. well tylenol and all is active but in rule 3 .. what ever they are talking about (even though I explained what it ment.. you told me I was wrong) it doesn't have to be active.. inturesting.. isn't it.. seeing how all medications contain non-active ingrediants.. interesting..
Guess I'm dead.. negrogesic must be too.. that's umm false info man..Maybe it's true for you less experienced and knowledgable addicts..
If I listened to you then I never would have had the best opiod buzz of my life. . now I was on duragesic 75's and was taking 4 percocet number 10's a day for pain.
never tried fentanyl have ya? also you can take about 40mgs of methadone and have a really good buzz all day long. if your new to it . I'd
have to take about 15 percocet a day to get this kinda buzz.. Sorry 2.5 mgs of fentanyl will give you the buzz of probably about 4 number 10 percs.. and then some.
also, just to let you know.. there are alkaloids in a ton of plants.. while you are right that not all of them are narcotic.. we where talking about "alkaloinds of opium" which are mostly narcotic.. the ones that are not usually result in death.. there toxic.. highly
here is a decent sight for some better understanding for you
Morphine and Opium Alkaloids
domin.dom.edu/faculty/jbfriese/alkaloid/Opium_Alkaloids/Morphine.html
now you can you look at this page which covers alot of alkaloids but the one we are looking at (because we are looking at the alkaloids of opium)
The morphine alkaloids, which comes from the Papaver somniferum, which is opium poppy. or as the The Sumerians called it Hul Gil, 'flower of joy.'
So you will see that "isoquinoline alkaloid of opium" are quite narcotic.. while there are other alkoloids as you will see from this site (Opium contains about 24 alkaloids, but only 2, morphine and codeine, have much clinical use) so by what you have said that they have to either combine it with a non- narcotic (as per section 4, which I agree with.) you really need to study the secound statement I posted from the drug scheduling III section (3) because this has obviously confused you.. but unlike the others you have atleast looked at it.. but you realy need to look at the wording.. and look at the way narcotic scheduling under section V, and you will see that they word it in such a way as to leave no room for doubt.. If things where like you say they where then they would have worded scheduling III the same way.. but anyway this will educate you on the isquinoline alkaloid of opium (that site I just gave you) and please note that it says "of opium" means from the opium plant. you can't combine the hydrocodone with the alkaloid of another plant.. it has to be of the opium plant.. just read and understand
another good sight but you need to go down to the section where it say's the alkaloids of morphine, then it gives the plant name.
www.people.vcu.edu/~asneden/alkaloids.htm
negro. I appreciate you bringing your butt monkies to post here but twgburst's first post showed that he has not fully read this post.. or he would have some idea of what we are posting on.. not just a few words off the scheduling pages.. but multiple sections of the schduling laws. we have posted on chemical make up. .. among other things.. No one has showed me anything.. other then go look at my pages that I posted and said oh you read it wrong.. I believe you guys have read it wrong.(if you have even read it, or else you would be looking for other sites to prove me wrong cause there is no way that I got it wrong). so what I can make that argument.. that's to easy.. now show me where this law said it has to be combined with no exceptions! like I just told you to look under schedule V to show you where it says it has to be combined with somthing else for codeine .. no exceptions
this is scheduling III expecially for you people who have not fully read the post because you knew this was wrong when you got in to this thread.. and you just knew this because this as been argued over before.. these are two seperate laws concerning the use of hydrcodone and the exceptions of how to make it a schedule III narcotic
(3) 300 milligrams of dihydrocodeine (hydrocodone), or any of its salts, per 100 milliliters or not more than 15 milligrams per dosage unit, with a fourfold or greater quanity of an isoquinoline alkaloid of opium;
this does not say it has to be combined with anything.
(4) not more than 300 milligrams of dihydrocodeinone (hydrocodone), or any of its salts, per 100 milliliters or not more that 15 milligrams per dosage unit, with one or more active, NONNARCOTIC ingredients in recognized therapeutic amounts;
(4) not more than 300 milligrams of dihydrocodeinone (hydrocodone), or any of its salts, per 100 milliliters or not more that 15 milligrams per dosage unit, with one or more active, NONNARCOTIC ingredients in recognized therapeutic amounts; now I'll break this down for you on what this statement means and there are two pages up there that will help you understand this, I know it's going to be hard for some of you.
now this said it 15 mgs hydrocodone with one or more ACTIVE, nonnarcotic ingredients. law 3 does not say that it is combined with anything active or nothing about another ingredient.. What it does say is that it has to have a fourfold (which means 4 times) or greater quantity (or more then four times) of an isoquinoline (this is a isoquinoline ring, in the chemical structure, that is found in such medications as morphine, codeine, hydrocodone etc... look at the first page I posted with domain.dom to see this in ring in morphine just go down to the structure of morphine and read the stuff up under the structure.) alkaloid (also refear to either page to see this. (I have put a definition futher down of alkaloids) it will tell you what the alkaloids of opium are) of opium(this is what tells us where to look for these rings. that you are comparing to, in this case opium)
so in other words on a chemical structure level. the hydrocodone has to have four times the number of isoquinoline then whats found in opium.
here is a site that tells you about isoquinoline
www.books.md/I/dic/isoquinoline.php
keep this in mind when you look at the first page I gave you about opium. as this is a defanition of isoquinoline taken from an online page.
[url]www.books.md/A/dic/alkaloids.php[/URL]
this is the true defanition of alkaloids,
now kalt_kalt you will really know what these words that are confusing you mean.. as your definitions you gave me earlier where way off..
this is what you said "And "isoquinoline alkaloid of opium" are the NON-narcotic alkaloids in opium (morphine and codeine being the 2 narcotic alkaloids in opium). And even if they were narcotics, subsection (3) is still not authority for a pure hydrocodone pill being in schedule III."
now if this statement where true then why do you find these isoquinoline rings in morpheine? because its simple.. there in all kinds or alkoloids that come from plants.. but you need to pay attention to what the usable alkaloids are in opium and as the statement is made we are looking at the alkaloids in opium. if you look at the law under schedule III for codein you only need the number of isoquinoline alkaloid of opium to be equal to opium, why, cause codeine and morphine are pulled straight from the plant these are refered to as "naturals", where others like hydrocodone are made from these "natural" opiods..
because the others are derived from the naturals they contain more of these isquinoline rings. atleast four in the case of hydrocodone. If there are any non narcotic drugs dirived from opium ( "isoquinoline alkaloid of opium" does not mean these, you really need to read these pages to stop spreading these lies) then that would have to be posted in the law, that these non narcotic opium derivatives, have to be used .. but pretty much from what I have gathered, (while not really possible as most of the other drugs they pull from opium are toxic, other then very addictive anxiety medications(which is narcotic and a derivative of morphine), which have been outlawed as they where to addictive and there where other less addictive medications that could be used.. why take an anti-anxiety medication thats as addictive as morpheine.. And there is a tranquilizer they make from it that they use on large animals.. elephants.. just an example) any of these other alkaloids have high levels of toxic chemicals in them.. so they would kill you pretty much.
ok last thing here.. as if you look at the information I have given you.. and you truely want to get to the truth as you claim then you will see that allot of the statements you have made are incorrect. I honesly believe by how inacurate your statement where you went and tried to just look up a few of these words and pulled a conclusion together with out truely doing any research.. not to be insulting.. but you are positive you know something and went and looked at these things in the wrong context, and it seemed to make sense for what you wanted.. but you have to really read and get to the fact of the matter.. also here is a sight about alkaloids.. there are all kinds.
www.botanical-online.com/alcaloidesangles.htm#LIST
ok here is the last thing on the tylenol thing and if you don't want to agree then that's ok but if you look down through this page it says that it increases the effects of hydrocodone.. scroll down to the part with the heading "What is acetaminophen and hydrocodone?".. It does not say it potentiate the narcotic (and I didn't say that) what it does say is this
Acetaminophen is a less potent pain reliever that increases the effects of hydrocodone.
go look where I said
my.webmd.com/content/drugs/1/4046_1371.htm?lastselectedguid={5FE84E90-BC77-4056-A91C-9531713CA348}
sorry Its taken me so long.. coming down with the flu I think.. went and had a flu shot the other day, so much for that shot.. told my GF that these didn't work to good.. lol
inimical
Bluelighter
ChronicPAIN chill dude, nice post. Informative, but why?!
twgburst
Bluelighter
- Joined
- Mar 6, 2003
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- 896
I don't read your entire posts cause they are a waste of my time. I don't care if you took every opiate/opioid on earth over the past 50 years, the fact remains that you are wrong about the scheduling about hydrocodone.
Here is what erowid says
http://www.erowid.org/pharms/hydrocodone/hydrocodone_law.shtml
"Pure hydrocodone and dihydrocodeine or products which contain more than 15mg per dosage unit are Schedule II in the US.
Products which contain less than 15 mg hydrocodone per dosage unit are federally schedule III in the United States. Almost all prescriptions hydrocodone is prescribed in Schedule III dose units (Vicodin).
Schedule II drug prescriptions may only be refilled with a written prescription, Schedule III pharmaceuticals may be refilled using phoned prescription (thanks to Dr J Moses)."
Why don't you stop spreading misinformation, you are wrong about this, just listen to everyone else. A lot of these people are experts and do know their shit, unlike you who thinks they know their shit. Also, experience and knowlege are not the same thing.
Here is what erowid says
http://www.erowid.org/pharms/hydrocodone/hydrocodone_law.shtml
"Pure hydrocodone and dihydrocodeine or products which contain more than 15mg per dosage unit are Schedule II in the US.
Products which contain less than 15 mg hydrocodone per dosage unit are federally schedule III in the United States. Almost all prescriptions hydrocodone is prescribed in Schedule III dose units (Vicodin).
Schedule II drug prescriptions may only be refilled with a written prescription, Schedule III pharmaceuticals may be refilled using phoned prescription (thanks to Dr J Moses)."
Why don't you stop spreading misinformation, you are wrong about this, just listen to everyone else. A lot of these people are experts and do know their shit, unlike you who thinks they know their shit. Also, experience and knowlege are not the same thing.
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