The hydrocodone controversy from lies to truth.

[ChronicPAIN]

www.tdh.state.tx.us/bfds/dmd/documents/statutes/state/archives/SCHED199.pdf

Open this web page to see the info I've given here in black and white.

Ok.. I have been told that I was giving out false info about this by just about everyone on this board. (not really everyone, a lot of people have pm'ed me agreeing but didn't want to say anything because of a particular individual). It was said that I was giving out false info and telling people stuff that was just basically lie’s, and that I was pretty much an idiot. So here is the proof.. Now if you want to read this and be educated, or if you would just like to remain an idiot don’t bother. First off I took this from the Texas state scheduling archives. Remember that, while a state can change this to be harder on some drugs. They CAN NOT change it to be easier on a drug (I.e. make oxycodone a scheduled III narcotic).. Remember California made it ok for doctors to prescribe medical marijuana, but they could not change the laws so that under federal guidelines it would be legal. They just said we, as a state, will not prosecute you. Same thing in Arizona.

Now here is where the confusion comes in.. and while I tried to explain it. Everyone here was “way” smarter then I was.. And that made there opinion true and my facts false. Btw you may want to open the page and follow alone.

Schedule II

Schedule II substances, vegetable origin or chemical synthesis the following substances, however produced, except those narcotic drugs listed in other schedules:
(1) Opium and opiate, and a salt, compound, derivative, or preparation of opium or opiate, other than thebaine-derived butorphanol, naloxone and its salts, naltrexone and its salts, and nalmefene and its salts, but include
Codeine,
ethyl morphine,
Ethorphine hydrocloride,
Granulated opium,
Hydrocodone,
Hydromorphone,
Metopon,
Opium extracts,
Opium fluid extracts,
Oxycodone,
Oxymorphone
Powdered opium,
Raw opium,
Thebaine,and
Tincture of opium,

Now what does this mean basically? These drugs are scheduled II if it’s in this list, unless there are rules that it falls under in another scheduling section. Also there are quatitie limitations as you will see is schedule III under narcotics. Sections 1,2,3,4,5,6,7 and 8.
Now I know a lot of you are thinking why not put this in schedule I. If this where schedule I no one can legally have it unless they have special permission from the government to experiment for useful qualities. Basically anything in schedule I, the government has said, they have no useful qualities or that the useful qualities are way out weighed by the bad (Quaaludes are an example of this).

Schedule III narcotics

A material, compound, mixture or preparation containing limited quantities of any of the following narcotic drugs, or any of their salts: Now sections one and two cover codeine in doses of 1.8 grams or less…

(3) not more then 300 milligrams of dihydrocodeinone (hydrocodone), or any of its salts, per 100 milliliters or not more that 15 milligrams per dosage unit with a fourfold or greater quantity of an isoquinoline alkaloid of opium;

Now that states that a 15mg tablet could be produced under schedule III narcotic rules, and section 4 covers the tablets that we get now.. Lorcet, lortabs, vicodien etc,..

(4) not more than 300 milligrams of dihydrocodeinone (hydrocodone), or any of its salts, per 100 milliliters or not more that 15 milligrams per dosage unit, with one or more active, NONNARCOTIC ingredients in recognized therapeutic amounts;

So they do have a law to cover non-combination forms of hydrocodone. Now why don’t they make it.. Simple hydrocodone by its self is a pretty week medication.. You would probably need 30 milligrams to get a very good pain relief affect. You can only make a 15 milligram tablet and keep it in schedule III. And why make a 20 or 30 mg hydrocodone table that will be scheduled as II that would never be prescribed when you have oxycodone as schedule II that is much more effective. As I have stated before, Tylenol improves the strength of codeine based medications. That is why you always get Tylenol (aspirin works in this way also but not ibuprophen which is why vicoprophen is used mostly for headaches and toothaches) with your hydrocodone, and . (I have a site that tells you how they make hydrocodone from codeine and how Tylenol works to carry more of the narcotic medication to the opiate receptors in the brain but I was told this by tathra the following:
info.
rhodium doesn’t want his sites posted on bluelight because it always ends up with him being hassled by idiots one way or another. please do not link his sites again. Thanks
tath


And I will respect being told this by a moderator. But if you want the site message me and I’ll send you the site. If tath tells me that it is ok to do.. If she doesn‘t tell me that it‘s ok then you will simple have to find it on your own) So I assume he gets hassled by some of the same idiots that I have been hassled by which has basically lead to me doing all of this and making this post.. And including this web page so you can see that I “don’t go around spreading false information nor do I simple make shit up and believe (like apparently others do) that the government does things just to take away your fun. I have been a major pain suffer for quite a few years now. And when you have a hard time getting doctors to help you, then you tend to start doing your own research.

So the final message is this.. Hydrocodone can be written as a 15mg or less tablet in pure form. And still be a schedule III narcotic. someone mentioned a pharmacy these and them being a schedule II well that would be true if the quantities where over 15mg.


Thanks,

ChronicPain.

 

[kalt_kalt]

"Tylenol works to carry more of the narcotic medication to the opiate receptors in the brain..."

This is not true at all. The tylenol is itself an analgesic and will provide some pain relief in addition to the hydrocodone, but it in NO WAY potentiates the hydrocodone. Xmg of hydrocodone provides the same exact buzz as Xmg hydrocodone + Ymg APAP.

The reason hydrocodone by itself is a schedule II whereas hydrocodone combined with certain other substances is a schedule III is because the addition of those substances make the pills less abusable. Read the entire controlled substances act and you'll see that schedules are based on the potential for abuse (higher the potential = lower the schedule, e.g. schedule II is more prone to abuse than schedule IV).

So why is hydrocodone + tylenol less abusable than pure hydrocodone? Because tylenol is toxic to your liver, as we all (hopefully) know. It sounds cynical to say they put the APAP in hydrocodone pills to "kill you" if you take too much of it, but that's exactly why it is there. It's a check on the potential abusability of the pill.

A *pure* hydrocodone pill, whether it be 5mg or 15mg, is Schedule II. A hypothetical 16mg hydrocodone pill with any amount of APAP will be a schedule II as it's over 15mg hydro per pill. This is how it is, and you're reading the CSA incorrectly.

Why are there no pure hydrocodone pills? It's quite simple. It would be a schedule II and if the doctor is going to write a triplicate, there are much better painkillers (such as oxycodone) than hydrocodone. So from a business standpoint it makes no sense for a company to manufacture pure hydro pills for commercial distribution. A pharmacy can custom-make (if they do compounding) a pure hydrocodone pill for you per a prescription, but it would require a schedule II... so it would be a triplicate (or whatever your state does). Why bother?

Legal and commercial reasons, not medical/chemical ones, are why there is no pure hydrocodone pill commercially produced in the USA.

 

[K'dOUTinAZ]

"Remember that, while a state can change this to be harder on some drugs. They CAN NOT change it to be easier on a drug"

This is so not true, you realize they just changed Marinol from a schedule II drug to a schedule III drug recently?

What you provided is VERY basic information

"A *pure* hydrocodone pill, whether it be 5mg or 15mg, is Schedule II. A hypothetical 16mg hydrocodone pill with any amount of APAP will be a schedule II as it's over 15mg hydro per pill. This is how it is, and you're reading the CSA incorrectly.

Why are there no pure hydrocodone pills? It's quite simple. It would be a schedule II and if the doctor is going to write a triplicate, there are much better painkillers (such as oxycodone) than hydrocodone. So from a business standpoint it makes no sense for a company to manufacture pure hydro pills for commercial distribution. A pharmacy can custom-make (if they do compounding) a pure hydrocodone pill for you per a prescription, but it would require a schedule II... so it would be a triplicate (or whatever your state does). Why bother?"

THIS is correct information

 

[negrogesic]

^^^^True

Ok.. I have been told that I was giving out false info about this by just about everyone on this board. (not really everyone, a lot of people have pm'ed me agreeing but didn't want to say anything because of a particular individual). It was said that I was giving out false info and telling people stuff that was just basically lie’s, and that I was pretty much an idiot. So here is the proof.

What is the point of this post? To whom and what are you trying to prove? If you dont like bluelight, and you feel like you are not liked by other bluelighters, then why spend your time here trying to prove something? There are many other forums, and message boards

 

[ChronicPAIN]

Actually negrogesic The reason for the post was because so many people said, through messages, that they didn't say anything on these sites cause of you. That you think your some messiah of the Other Drug users. no what I gave you was fact.. but I knew you guys would still argue with me and was not worried about it.. cause you can't show me where you have any facts.. simple as that.. Um I do have a site that show's how tylenol and aspirin carries hydrocodone (well it says all codeine based pain killers) to the opiate receptors . but like I said I was told I can not post it.. It's from a chemist stand point and I believe him to be more knowledgeable then you guys.. also On the scheduling you need to read under schedule II it says that these medications are schedule II (including hydrocodone and codeine) unless it is covered by rules in another scheduling section (which it is, in schedule III) that why I pointed that out to everyone.. but I guess some people can't put two and two together. Also the only way you can combine hydrocodone is with one or more active, NONNARCOTIC ingredients in recognized therapeutic amounts; this means you can not combine it with something.. (by law) unless it's helpful by combining it with another substance.

Didn't say I didn't like bluelighters.. just a couple of you don't post anything helpful. you just try to go around and argue over simple comments made by other people (and now I am pointing out why you are wrong through facts and laws and not just an opinion). trust me negrogesic, I have seen several of your post that where very inaccurate.

as far as triplicate goes you would be right.. if it's over 15 mg.. other wise it would be schedule III.

and your right.. they consider anything over 15mg to fall into the higher potential for abuse so then it's schedule II. It's right there in black and white.. and I'm the one who said why would they make a dose like a 20mg tablet (hydrocodone) if its going to fall into the schedule II when you could just wright a oxycodone medication instead(cause its a much better painkiller).. so you read some.. and you just reposted my thought.

so let me break it down to simply. hydrocodone is a schedule II narcotic but it has rules that fall under schedule III and those rules state this. That you can make a hydrocodone tablet that will keep it in schedule III if you do not make a tablet that contains more then 15mgs or hydrocodone, and they restate this same rule but state in the second rule that you can make a 15 mg hydrocodone tab that is combined with non-narcotic medication is it has proven facts that it will be helpful combined like that. but even this pill can not have more then 15 mgs of hydrocodone. Nonnarcotic anagelesic would include tylenol, aspirin, etc...

the funny thing is that you guys will argue about this when it say's you can make a non mixed pill under 15 mgs. But I understand why you think like this.. because you want that 15 mg tab so that you can snort it or abuse it.. but the fact is you need about a 30mg tab of pure hydrocodone to be really effective when not combined with something to help it .

go hear and scroll down to where it say's :What is acetaminophen and hydrocodone?
now there you will find this information: • Acetaminophen is a less potent pain reliever that increases the effects of hydrocodone.
http://my.webmd.com/content/drugs/1/4046_1371.htm?lastselectedguid={5FE84E90-BC77-4056-A91C-9531713CA348}

peace out,
ChronicPAIN.

P.S. before you get mad at me and start flaming my, I already know I can't spell so want do much good to mention is. Cause I know I can't spell and don't care if you can. Big whoopie.

 

[kalt_kalt]

ChronicPAIN, you said:

"So the final message is this.. Hydrocodone can be written as a 15mg or less tablet in pure form. And still be a schedule III narcotic."

No it cannot. Pure hydrocodone (i.e. no APAP or ibuprofen) is a schedule II, regardless of how many milligrams it is. A 1mg pure hydrocodone pill would be schedule II (and completely worthless, hehe).

Tylenol has analgesic effects when combined with a narcotic (because it's an analgesic and it works differently than a narcotic), but it does not potentiate the narcotic. Sorry, taking APAP with your opiates will not give you a better buzz. It will hurt your liver... if you have access to opiates there is absolutely no reason to ever take tylenol, because it's a horrible, toxic substance.

SUMMARY:

A. Pure hydrocodone = always schedule II

B. Up to 15mg hydrocodone per pill ("dose") of hydrocodone = Schedule III *IF* it is combined with certain amounts of other medicines (APAP, etc).

C. Over 15mg hydrocodone per pill = schedule II regardless of what it is mixed with.

K'dOUTinAZ:

"Remember that, while a state can change this to be harder on some drugs. They CAN NOT change it to be easier on a drug"

"This is so not true, you realize they just changed Marinol from a schedule II drug to a schedule III drug recently?"

Yes, but "they" is the DEA, not a state. The federal gov't re-scheduled marinol to sched. III, not a state.

 

[ChronicPAIN]

um Kalt_Kalt do me a favor and read this and tell me what it say's.

this is under schedule III section (3)

not more than 300 milligrams of dihydrocodeine (hydrocodone), or any of its salts, per 100 milliliters or not more than 15 milligrams per dosage unit, with a fourfold or greater quanity or an isoquinoline alkaloid of opium;

what that say?

now this is section (4)

not more that 300 milligrams of dihydrocodeine (hydrocodone), or any of its salts, per 100 milliliters or not more than 15 milligrams per dosage unit, with one or more active, nonnarcotic ingredients in recognized therapeutic amouts;

now what is that refering to?

looks like it's telling you how you can use hydrocodone and still have it remain as a schedule III narcotic

 

[ChronicPAIN]

Forgotten you also have to look at rule three

that I put in my original post and it the last post I made. and don't let words like isoquinoline alkaloid of opium..

that's just a narcotic dirived from the opium plant.. they have two different rules here.. one is for a medication with a non-narcotic.. the first rule is for one that doesn't contain a non-narcotic.. It's the same way with codeine if you look on the web page I gave.. but the dosage is different.

 

[ChronicPAIN]

looks like anyone can post on the pharmy site you gave me.. you have to be more to the point here.. not sure what you want me to see. if these are still opinion's then whats that prove.. I'm showing you under the scheduling laws..

you can read them here. go to schedule II first to see where it say's that they are schedule II unless they have rules under a different schedule.. and then go to schedule III and look at rules 3 and 4 that cover hydrocodone..

www.tdh.state.tx.us/bfds/dmd/documents/statutes/state/archives/SCHED199.pdf

 

[groovee]

Listen, I don't think you guys are EVER going to agree, so can we leave it at that?

 

[kalt_kalt]

Neither section (3) nor (4) authorize a pure hydrocodone pill to fall into schedule III. Please note that isoquinoline alkaloids of opium are not narcotics (papaverine is a good example of one).

A pure hydrocodone pill, whether it's under 15mg/dose or over 15mg/dose, is schedule II. The parts of the Controlled Substances Act you are citing are the same parts I would cite to show this. I frankly do not understand how you can read any of this to mean there can be a pure hydrocodone pill which would fall into Schedule III.

The CSA is very clear that hydrocodone is a schedule II except when combined with certain amounts of certain things, in which case the COMBINATION falls into the less-restrictive schedule III. I don't mean to be condescending, but this really isn't that hard to understand. If you want to have some real fun, go read the Securities Act of 1933 and try to understand the registration exemptions.

 

[kalt_kalt]

"Although opium is used in the form of paregoric to treat diarrhea, most opium imported into the United States is broken down into its alkaloid constituents. These alkaloids are divided into two distinct chemical classes, phenanthrene and isoquinoline. The principal phenanthrene is morphine, codeine and thebaine, while isoquinoline has no significant central nervous system effect and is not regulated under the CSA."

see http://www.hcso.tampa.fl.us/SOD/fopium.htm

Just because it comes from opium doesn't mean it's an opiate (aka "narcotic").

You're quoting the stuff that says hydrocodone can be a schedule III if (and only if) it's combined with certain chemicals and under 15mg/dose, but then you are saying a pure (not combined with anything else) hydrocodone pill can be schedule III if it's under 15mg/dose. Sorry, but you're incorrect. For hydrocodone to be schedule III, it must be combined with stuff that is toxic in large amounts; otherwise, it is a schedule II. That's the bottom line.

 

[ChronicPAIN]

First off I thank you for offering up an intelligent debate on this.

Any material, compound, mixture or preparation containing limited quantities of any of the following narcotic drugs or any salts thereof, calculated as the free anhydrous base or alkaloid:


You have to note that at the top of schedule III narcotics that this is the opening line hydrocodone in limited quantities of 15 mg have been given that exception


ok let's get this out the way because I told everyone that it simple meant that it was the drug but let me try to explain this. I knew everyone was going to look at it at just assume it was a loop hole that they could point out not really knowing what it means.. and that's what I was waiting on.

section 3 say's this not going to retype the entire thing.. just what we need to discuss.


not more than 15 mgs per dosage unit with a fourfold or greater quantity of an isoquinoline alkaloid of opium. These narcotics contain what are called isoquinoline rings. It has to do with the chemical structure of the narcotic.

Alkaloids are simple narcotics you have several type these include
Natural (known as opiates):

Morphine
Codeine (which is the drug they get hydrocodone from)
Papaverine
Thebaine

Semi-synthetic (what we call opioids) *note these are derivatives of the naturals)

Heroin
Hydrocodone (hycodan) (which is hydrocodone and homatropine(helps to dry up nasal and breathing passages)
hydromorphone (dilaudid)
Mepheridine(demerol)
Oxycodone(percocet)
Etorphine

synthetic (also known as opioids)
fentanyl (sublimaze)
methadone (dolophine)
propoxyphene (darvon)
pentazocine (talwin)

So basically what this say's is this.. that the narcotic has to have four times or greater chemical structure then the chemical make up of the core componate..

Now what does this mean.. that hydrocodone has more isoquinoline rings in it then opium(which is where the core componate to make hydrocodone comes from .. codeine) That is why on codeine it said has to be equal to or greater then the isoquinoline alkaloid of opium. So basically the chemical has to be of a certain quality. and because it is listed above the section with the non-narcotic medication mixed in it also applies to it.

you see this is referring to the chemical structure of said medication.. be it codein or hydrocodone as compared to the original structure that it comes from..

So what does this section basically say? I'll tell you:

not more than 300 milligrams of dihydrocodeine (hydrocodone), or any of its salts, per 100 milliliters or not more than 15 milligrams per dosage unit, with a fourfold or greater quanity or an isoquinoline alkaloid of opium;

translation.

not more that 300 milligrams of dihydrocodeine (hydrocodone), or any of its salts, per 100 millitliters or not more then 15 milligrams per dosage unit. with a chemical make up, four times or greater then four times to the number of isoquinoline rings in the core componate of opium.

Now why would the "isoquinoline alkaloid of opium" ever change. Well that depends on when the opium has been extracted from the pod. You see once the plant fully matures then the all of the actual chemical they get morphine and the such from is gone.. and it's time dependent on when the seeds have been extracted from the papaver somniferum or as the Sumerians called it Hul Gil. 'flower of joy'.


thank you for your time.

ChronicPAIN.

*I know my spelling sucks.. *

 

[negrogesic]

Whoever said they were afraid to post because of me must have been pretty, well.....I urge them to private message me and explain why they fear posting because of me......

Yes, I am curt, I am upfront, and I get pissed off when people spread misinformation. Someone who is afraid to post because of me must not be very sure of themselves. I don't consider myself to be a bluelight "messiah", I don't think anyone else does either. Im not here to point out peoples inadequacies, but I answer alot of questions that are often left unanswered, or answered incorrectly. And sometimes in the process I piss people off. If you do a search of my posts, it is readily apparent that the vast majority of my posts are answers to peoples questions, though I admittedly flame here or there. I was going to write some FAQ's, but couldn't find the time. Don't be a sore loser or take it personally if I corrected your grammar, or corrected you in some way. I just dont have a lot of tolerance for some of the crap that people post, and any long time member here would know that this forum is degrading at a steady pace. So when your corrected or flamed, dont react by starting a flame war. It is certainly no big deal, just grin and fucking bear it, or as I said, find a more "friendly" forum to suit your needs, and that will put up with pointless posts to prove self-worth............

 

[ChronicPAIN]

Kalt_Kalt you should really check things out instead of just going and doing a web search to see what it was.. I have been waiting for one of you guys to point it out that I was saying that so I could explain it.. but you where a little late. I was probably typing out my reply in the time you looked that up, and get only that smidge of information that doesn't even nearly scratch the surface of what it is... but thanks anyway.

 

[twgburst]

This person doesn't know what he is talking about (ChronicPAIN). How many knowlegible people are arguing with you? How come noone agrees with you? You prove your wrong with this "(4) not more than 300 milligrams of dihydrocodeinone (hydrocodone), or any of its salts, per 100 milliliters or not more that 15 milligrams per dosage unit, with one or more active, NONNARCOTIC ingredients in recognized therapeutic amounts;"
The first part is refering to hydrocodone cought syrup, the second is refering to pills. This proves you wrong, yet you obviously don't understand it. Why don't you just take our word for it and stop arguing a fact with false information.
http://www.deadiversion.usdoj.gov/drugs_concern/hydrocodone/summary.htm
"Control Status

Hydrocodone is in Schedule II of the Controlled Substances Act. Preparations containing hydrocodone in combination with other non-narcotic medicinal ingredients are in Schedule III."

 

[ChronicPAIN]

negrogesic, that would be great if I where wrong. If I didn't know this stuff before I ever came to this page.. and you should take your own advise about being wrong.. just gin and fucking bear it. or move on.. I'm not flaming you.. if you look most of my post have been to the point.. with web pages to back it up and to give a good explanation.. even if it is to advanced for others sometimes.. But when people tell me I'm wrong don't just tell me what you think you know.. give me some facts and web pages to back up your claim, as I have done here.. but no one really pays much attention do they.. Just like I knew someone was going to jump on me about the isoquinoline alkaloid of opium is section (3) of the scheduled III narcotics.. but I was already aware of what it was.. like in my post up above I asked Kalt_Kalt to read that sentence and tell me what it ment.. If he had of known what it ment he would have answered with a very detailed explanation if for no other reason then to show his knowledge of why he was right.. or anyone else would have.. But if you read my post up above you will see that it pretty much means narcotic because I used it with a word that makes it the ring in a chemical structure of a word that does pretty much mean narcotic, Alkaloids, and people should also note, that I did not say that isoquinoline.. simply that one should asume that "isoquinoline alkaloid of opium"
should just be considered as narcotics.

Why because the word isoquinoline referes to a ring in the chemical make up of drugs that come from opium.. because its already in the plant.

And I think I did you guys a favor by telling you to assume it was the narcotic.. not just a norcotic. Just trying to save you the time of being showed up like this.. cause a quick 5 minute search for a word or two no where compaires to having extensive knowledge of this already.. sorry.

 

[ChronicPAIN]

twgburst reads about as well as the rest of you.. or is it that no one understands section 3? am I the only one on this site wite any chemical knowledge or understanding of words other then english? boy he sure proved me wrong with that simple statement.. this is what I mean.. everyone just jumps on one side or the other not knowing anything.. It's like he wanted to be the "smart one" that proved me wrong. you better go read the entire post twgburst.. do it SLOWLY

 

[ChronicPAIN]

papaverine while to do make a non narcotic medication from this I believe used for people with ms to give them an erection. It is straight from the opium plant and usually the full name is Papaver somniferum which comes in multiple forms. . one that can be smoked.. hence smoking opium. but there is a chemical in it that can be proken down to make vasodilators,

 

[kalt_kalt]

ChronicPAIN, I'm sorry but you're wrong. Either you're misunderstanding the properties of chemicals and what is/is not a narcotic, or you're misreading the statutes. For what it's worth, I've read the CSA long before I found this place.

Frankly I don't think the statute could be clearer. It first says hydrocodone is a schedule II substance, and then makes an exception for when hydrocodone is combined with certain other non-narcotic substances in schedule III. To cite this and then argue that a pure hydrocdone pill can be schedule III is like citing the First Amendment to support a federal law prohibiting the free exercise of religion. It's contrary authority to your assertion.

Only a combination pill (i.e. **not** pure hydrocodone) will be schedule III, with 15mg hydrocodone per pill being the maximum.

And yes, papaverine is marketed as caverject, which is used to aid impotency. It's also used to treat angina and certain other conditions resulting from poor blood flow.

If a pure hydro pill could be schedule III there would be an abundance of such pills on the market.