The Ferguson thread / additional race discussion

[nuttynutskin]

Yup, and the other witnesses were caught flat out lying saying he had his hands up and all that bullshit. Should've been charged with perjury imo. I'm going with the officer this time. Has nothing to do with what he looks like.

 

[rickolasnice]

It is not enough for me to stand before you tonight and condemn riots. It would be morally irresponsible for me to do that without, at the same time, condemning the contingent, intolerable conditions that exist in our society. These conditions are the things that cause individuals to feel that they have no other alternative than to engage in violent rebellions to get attention. And I must say tonight that a riot is the language of the unheard.

Martin Luther King

 

[LuGoJ]

The cops story was corroborated by several witnesses. Those witnesses were people of colour which makes their opinion valid. Theres little doubt as to what occured now.

What does that have to do with my post? I wasn't commenting on the kids guilt or innocence. I was laughing at the people that generally hold the position that cops can't be trusted, that they will lie to protect their own no matter what etc.. but when this case rolls around, even before the evidence was presented, they suddenly start saying things like "why would he lie?" "he looks like a trustworthy man". You can't deny that happens a whole lot any time any interaction with police become highly politicized(not singling out one group or political party, happens with every group)

Look, my whole problem from the beginning was less about the events of that day and more about people's reaction. The fact that people were just willing to accept what the cops said, without all of the evidence being released etc, even though everyone knows that police are notorious for lying and protecting their own no matter what. If you remember, this all began because the police didn't even want to do an investigation to begin with, they wanted to close the book immediately... and people supported that!! Which is absolutely fucking insane! It doesn't matter if the victim is white or black, it doesn't matter if people think the victim is a thug or not.. when stuff like this happens we need to go into these situations assuming the police are only trying to protect themselves.. until this ridiculous and well documented blue code of silence is finally gone.

@nutty your post sparked my original comment, but it wasn't fully directed at you.

I agree that eyewitnesses accounts are notoriously inaccurate to begin with, thankfully, we won't have to rely on them as much once police are forced to wear cameras though.

 

[Escher's Waterfall]

If you watch the news or read the news, you would see White people and Mexicans also get shot by the police when they are unarmed.

Nobody is claiming they don't.

But I am claiming that African-Americans tend to be disproportionately targeted by the criminal justice system in a multitude of ways. African-Americans are disproportionately likely to be stopped by cops, to be shot by cops, to be arrested for drug crimes (even though drug use rates are roughly the same), to serve longer sentences, and to be sentenced to death.

The system reeks with racism.

 

[What 23]

Aren't Blacks also disproportionately represented in violent crime stats? Or has that been misinterpreted? I'm not saying racism doesn't exist here but it might not be totally reasonless. Not to say the response/action is perfect. Fuck I know I'm a dick.

 

[alasdairm]

i'm not going to get dragged into a debate in this troll forum, but i'm just going to interject one more thing. if you honestly advocate violence and destruction of property as a reasonable means of achieving social justice then you're out of your mind. there are legitimate avenues for reforming the system if it is broken, and they are effective when used correctly. this was proven by the civil rights movement of the 60's, which made an enormous amount of progress for oppressed minority groups and was largely nonviolent. yes, there are still problems, some big ones, but they need to be addressed through legitimate avenues in a systematic way.



exactly. a grand jury, which is about as impartial an entity as is possible for human beings to construct, and acts as autonomously from any type of outside influence as is possible for humans to act, examined the evidence extensively and considered the testimony of over 60 witnesses and determined that there was not probable cause to charge the police officer with a crime in this case. the police officer was attacked and was defending himself, he did not commit murder or any other crime, and was acting within the boundaries of the law. the decision of the grand jury not to charge him was sound from a legal standpoint.

maybe.

or maybe the system is just fundamentally broken? one man's "as autonomously from any type of outside influence as is possible for humans to act" is another's "working secretly with no checks and balances".

maybe you're done with this thread, r&m. if not, read the numbers in my post #925 and tell me the system is impartially doing its job?

it's 60 years since rosa parks and america still has a race problem. some people just don't like other people purely because of the color of their skin. you don't have to look very far in ce&p or the lounge to find examples here on bluelight. it's pervasive and destructive (and not a little ironic in a lot of cases).

alasdair

 

[alasdairm]

If you watch the news or read the news, you would see White people and Mexicans also get shot by the police when they are unarmed.

did you read my post #925?

sure white people and mexicans get shot when they are unarmed. but it happens to black people disproportionately more.

alasdair

 

[ebola?]

on Kenickie's point:


As a former sociologist, I need to note that there is a problem with an echo chamber of white discussants trying to engage race. It is the nature of white privilege to obscure the causal dynamics underlying racialized oppression and even the construction of race in the first place. The tl;dr of white privilege is that it allows for one to succeed in interactions without giving any attention to racial dynamics (as is less necessary for us due to the large number of white powernholders, living in an overall ethnically white society that treats whiteness as normal, the default standard, treating PoC as different, 'the other'). PoC thus stand to enrich the discussion because their lack of racial privilege makes it necessary for them to better understand race to navigate power structures. . .and they tend to experience racialized interactions far more often.

So yes, we have much to learn from one another but not in any symmetric way.

Ebola

 

[LosBlancos]

Nobody is claiming they don't.

But I am claiming that African-Americans tend to be disproportionately targeted by the criminal justice system in a multitude of ways. African-Americans are disproportionately likely to be stopped by cops, to be shot by cops, to be arrested for drug crimes (even though drug use rates are roughly the same), to serve longer sentences, and to be sentenced to death.

The system reeks with racism.

It's all proportionate to how much crime they commit. It's the criminal justice system, not Harvard admissions. Police don't go out and say we need 3 Blacks today, 3 Whites, 2 Indians and a Chinese guy. It's not like that. Whoeever commits the crime gets arrested.

 

[Droppersneck]

I will admit I cannot properly assess this situation as I have never been a cop, black, or studied this to any length. I do not think the system in inherently flawed, but I do think the human element coupled with the lower echelon of people going into common law enforcement in general can be hard for the discerning public to comprehend/address.

 

[ebola?]

It's all proportionate to how much crime they commit. It's the criminal justice system, not Harvard admissions. Police don't go out and say we need 3 Blacks today, 3 Whites, 2 Indians and a Chinese guy. It's not like that. Whoeever commits the crime gets arrested.

I...am not sure whether I can believe that you're just this naive. Police afford a great deal of discretion in who they surveil and why, how they treat detainees and arrestees, what a 'perp' is to be charged with, etc. So no, police enforcement exhibits quite clear racial biases, systemic biases that grow even more stark when we look to the court system and prison industrial complex.

Now I'm not arguing that there are no statistical differences in rates of criminality among races, but such differences are readily explicable in terms of structurally conditioned racial disparities. Eg, geographically concentrated poverty tends to compel criminality, but we tend to take on an illusory view, whereby we misrecognize sociocultural inequities, instead viewing individual or racial pathology as the culprit.

Ebola

 

[legalizeall]

Eg, geographically concentrated poverty tends to compel criminality, but we tend to take on an illusory view, whereby we misrecognize sociocultural inequities, instead viewing individual or racial pathology as the culprit.

Ebola

Just another set of excuses. Defeat is being taught into them from the very start. Doesnt matter about anything. If you have the drive, determination, passion, and develop a good work ethic, you can do anything you want. Just cause your in the ghetto or projects or wherever and you tend to live a life of crime, thats on you. Responsibility for your own actions without the blame game. Well maybe one day things will be absolutely perfect and their be an explosion of success. Its just such an excuse. Their done before they try.

I do think cops tend to go towards investigating the black crowd more then others. Years ago i didnt think so and I just thought it was the black community crying again. But i think its pretty clear they do. Im not saying that whites arent doing anything types of crime. But.....you have to look at how you represent yourself in the public and be honest about what type of image your trying to put out there. Certain things are known to represent certain ideas and provoke a certain message. Thats just how society has developed. People run their alot of how they judge on stereotypes.

 

[alasdairm]

Heres a video of a unarmed white man being gunned down in Utah.

sfw?

unarmed white people get killed by cops.
unarmed black people get killed by cops. in disproportionately high numbers.

It's all proportionate to how much crime they commit.

except it's not. did you read my post #925 (or are you just ignoring facts and such)?

Whoeever commits the crime gets arrested.

that's a pretty naive statement.

alasdair

 

[Droppersneck]

But dont unarmed black people commit crime at a disproportionate amount? I think that is what he is saying.

 

[alasdairm]

^ which is addressed in #1151.

alasdair

 

[LosBlancos]

I...am not sure whether I can believe that you're just this naive. Police afford a great deal of discretion in who they surveil and why, how they treat detainees and arrestees, what a 'perp' is to be charged with, etc. So no, police enforcement exhibits quite clear racial biases, systemic biases that grow even more stark when we look to the court system and prison industrial complex.

Now I'm not arguing that there are no statistical differences in rates of criminality among races, but such differences are readily explicable in terms of structurally conditioned racial disparities. Eg, geographically concentrated poverty tends to compel criminality, but we tend to take on an illusory view, whereby we misrecognize sociocultural inequities, instead viewing individual or racial pathology as the culprit.

Ebola

I don't know what you expect police to do, do you see some guys running from a robbery and they just let them go saying you know what this crime was compelled by "structurally conditioned racial disparities"?

As much as it may disturb you there will forever be inequalities in our society. If everyone was equal it would look more like an episode of The Twilight Zone than real life. How can we celebrate our differences and live in a diverse society if everyone is equal? Plenty of people born into extremely poor areas study very hard, go to university and manage to get out of poverty (if you are poor and have decent grades it's very easy to get a full-ride scholarship, grant money, ect). There's nothing "structurally conditioned" about other's electing to not go to college or learn a trade but rather have multiple children while they're already struggling to get by, it's largely personal choice, just like it's a personal choice to murder someone or rob someone.

Geographically concentrated poverty doesn't cause crime I can show you Chinese cities far more densely populated than Americas largest cities with far worse poverty and far less crime. Same goes for many places in Eastern Europe as well. In both cases in China and many places of Eastern Europe you will find much of the population realizes this personal choice and thus studies very hard, excels in school and improves their condition. They don't have you or other people feeding them the victim mentality that their country is out to get them and their aspirations our hopeless.

 

[paranoid android]

One thing Conservatives and Liberals see to be good at is bringing everything down to the level of the worst kind of identity politics. The fact is both working class whites and blacks are treated with contempt by the establishment. The difference being that cops know they can get away with shooting a black person alot easier then shooting a white one. Not to mention the police force seems to attract neanderthals to begin with and always have. Also there is a severe problem with cops getting away with things that a average civilian would atleast catch say a manslaughter charge for which is what probably would have happened here. But no he's a copper so he get's off. How does that look to the black community or for that matter anyone any members of the working class that sympathize with the plight of black people living in a place where they still have to fear being gunned down for no other reason then being black? It looks like they are getting away with murder so could you blame them to be pissed off really?

Also i saw alot of white people in those crowds too so it's obviously not just black people pissed off at the police and establishment in general now is it?

 

[paranoid android]

I don't know what you expect police to do, do you see some guys running from a robbery and they just let them go saying you know what this crime was compelled by "structurally conditioned racial disparities"?

As much as it may disturb you there will forever be inequalities in our society. If everyone was equal it would look more like an episode of The Twilight Zone than real life. How can we celebrate our differences and live in a diverse society if everyone is equal? Plenty of people born into extremely poor areas study very hard, go to university and manage to get out of poverty (if you are poor and have decent grades it's very easy to get a full-ride scholarship, grant money, ect). There's nothing "structurally conditioned" about other's electing to not go to college or learn a trade but rather have multiple children while they're already struggling to get by, it's largely personal choice, just like it's a personal choice to murder someone or rob someone.

Geographically concentrated poverty doesn't cause crime I can show you Chinese cities far more densely populated than Americas largest cities with far worse poverty and far less crime. Same goes for many places in Eastern Europe as well. In both cases in China and many places of Eastern Europe you will find much of the population realizes this personal choice and thus studies very hard, excels in school and improves their condition. They don't have you or other people feeding them the victim mentality that their country is out to get them and their aspirations our hopeless.

Still trying to peddle the American dream bit are we? I didn't even think Conservatives gave that silly notion anymore then lip service

 

[LosBlancos]

One thing Conservatives and Liberals see to be good at is bringing everything down to the level of the worst kind of identity politics. The fact is both working class whites and blacks are treated with contempt by the establishment.

What is this country coming to, when a man can't even commit a robbery and then attack a police officer without getting killed?

Using Michael Brown as a "martyr" of working class whites or blacks is an insult to those people.

There will always be latte-drinking college students with Che Guevara t-shirts that talk about how evil the "establishment" is but the fact is in America there is a far greater standard upwards mobility than almost anywhere else in the world. If you want to better your circumstances it sure won't come from burning down the neighborhood Jiffy Jube and ransacking your local gas station.

 

[Droppersneck]

One thing Conservatives and Liberals see to be good at is bringing everything down to the level of the worst kind of identity politics. The fact is both working class whites and blacks are treated with contempt by the establishment. The difference being that cops know they can get away with shooting a black person alot easier then shooting a white one. Not to mention the police force seems to attract neanderthals to begin with and always have. Also there is a severe problem with cops getting away with things that a average civilian would atleast catch say a manslaughter charge for which is what probably would have happened here. But no he's a copper so he get's off. How does that look to the black community or for that matter anyone any members of the working class that sympathize with the plight of black people living in a place where they still have to fear being gunned down for no other reason then being black? It looks like they are getting away with murder so could you blame them to be pissed off really?

Also i saw alot of white people in those crowds too so it's obviously not just black people pissed off at the police and establishment in general now is it?

The grand jury could of brought a man slaughter charge, but they chose not to. Are you saying that as a collective all the people on the grand jury are effected by bias in the form of racism, self promotion of class warfare, and a personal pro-cop agenda? What would be a better method to find justice? Ask Noam Chompskys opinion and go with that?