The Big & Dandy Oral DMT thread (Ayahuasca/Pharmahuasca)
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SpelunkingTheMind
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So it's been awhile since I've done any psychedelics, but I'm hearing the call to try my hand at some homemade ayahuasca. A few months ago while backpacking in South America, I took some with a shaman and his family, along with a few friends, in a jungle in Ecuador, but it was a rather weak brew and I didn't get in as deep as I'd have liked to. Beautiful experience nonetheless.
Anyway, I have one concern that I though I'd bring up here and see what you guys think. With any psychedelic (or at least those I've tried to date), I tend to get very socially anxious and MUCH prefer to be alone. Even when I go into a trip (usually shrooms) with a few close friends in the highest of spirits, as soon as the trip rolls in I immediately tend to regret being with other people. Being with other people tends to make me fight a trip, trying to stay as sober as possible - even when I go in knowing that that tends to happen and trying to calm myself out of it. So, tripping alone is by far my favorite/most comfortable route, but that means I go without any sort of sitter - which leads to my big worry/fear with psychedelics: losing control. I don't have a problem with going through rough trips and the intensity that they entail, but I'm always afraid of finding out upon sobering up that I stripped naked and ran through the streets screaming my head off, or the like. For that reason I tend to avoid high doses of psychs, particularly shrooms.
Which brings me to ayahuasca. Is that sort of 'losing control' a worry I should have with ayahuasca? Again, I don't mean losing control in the sense of just lying back, getting sucked into my head, and not being able to move or talk for awhile - I'm fine with that, I just don't want to be sucked into my head while in reality (or whatever you'd like to call it
) I'm doing things that I'd.. rather not be doing, shall we say. I've been reading lots of reports both here and on erowid, and I haven't come across much to that degree, but ironically it did seem to happen in Psychedelic Gleam's report above (the falling into a stream, thrashing about). The impression I have is that ayahuasca is more likely to just knock you on your ass and send you for a ride in your head, but now I'm not sure that's always the case. Would it be safe in this way for me to do it alone in my room? Does dosage have a big effect on one's tendency to lose control (as it seems to with shrooms)?
Thanks for the advice
Anyway, I have one concern that I though I'd bring up here and see what you guys think. With any psychedelic (or at least those I've tried to date), I tend to get very socially anxious and MUCH prefer to be alone. Even when I go into a trip (usually shrooms) with a few close friends in the highest of spirits, as soon as the trip rolls in I immediately tend to regret being with other people. Being with other people tends to make me fight a trip, trying to stay as sober as possible - even when I go in knowing that that tends to happen and trying to calm myself out of it. So, tripping alone is by far my favorite/most comfortable route, but that means I go without any sort of sitter - which leads to my big worry/fear with psychedelics: losing control. I don't have a problem with going through rough trips and the intensity that they entail, but I'm always afraid of finding out upon sobering up that I stripped naked and ran through the streets screaming my head off, or the like. For that reason I tend to avoid high doses of psychs, particularly shrooms.
Which brings me to ayahuasca. Is that sort of 'losing control' a worry I should have with ayahuasca? Again, I don't mean losing control in the sense of just lying back, getting sucked into my head, and not being able to move or talk for awhile - I'm fine with that, I just don't want to be sucked into my head while in reality (or whatever you'd like to call it
) I'm doing things that I'd.. rather not be doing, shall we say. I've been reading lots of reports both here and on erowid, and I haven't come across much to that degree, but ironically it did seem to happen in Psychedelic Gleam's report above (the falling into a stream, thrashing about). The impression I have is that ayahuasca is more likely to just knock you on your ass and send you for a ride in your head, but now I'm not sure that's always the case. Would it be safe in this way for me to do it alone in my room? Does dosage have a big effect on one's tendency to lose control (as it seems to with shrooms)? Thanks for the advice
Sykoknot
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Dosage does make a difference. But the biggest factor is you, and how much mental control you have.
As for losing control on DMT, the only thing you will lose is your perception of the third dimensional aspect of reality. So that being said, your body will most likely lay completely still during your voyage. DMT, even at lower, non threshold doses, is nothing like other psychs. I find my headspace to be very clear, if not superior to the sober state of mind.
So simple answer: 99% chance you will NOT lose control.
As for losing control on DMT, the only thing you will lose is your perception of the third dimensional aspect of reality. So that being said, your body will most likely lay completely still during your voyage. DMT, even at lower, non threshold doses, is nothing like other psychs. I find my headspace to be very clear, if not superior to the sober state of mind.
So simple answer: 99% chance you will NOT lose control.
adrian89987
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I absolutely prefer to do it alone, but it may be a good idea to have someone within reach in case things Do go south. When you take a good enough dose of ayahuasca, retaining control is Not something you wanna have to worry about doing. The experience can be very powerful to the point that your entire reality can be ripped apart even while you're still physically mobile. If you're sitting there trying to keep track of what your physical self because you don't wanna look weird around people you will have problems.
I do all of my oral DMT trips alone though, the one time I did it around people I ended up freaking out (though the situation that I took the dose in was unbelievably stupid and there was a Lot of people around..so not saying you will freak out).
I do all of my oral DMT trips alone though, the one time I did it around people I ended up freaking out (though the situation that I took the dose in was unbelievably stupid and there was a Lot of people around..so not saying you will freak out).
daysonatrain
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i have a quick syrian rue question. im brewing up some aya and this time around im going to capsule the syrian rue (ground of course). how long should i wait before drinking the dmt mixture? i always waited half an hour with the water extracted rue, but imagine it would be a bit longer with capsules.
jamaica0535
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Yea i really do like that about the smoked experience, you have no concept of yourself or your breathing but are still very much capable of productive thought processes....
I have friends who suggest not doing aya without the presence of a shaman. I would be around someone who could take care of me if need be, but i have never had anything in terms of freaking out and doing something stupid. I know the person would have to be someone i trusted not to fuck with my head, because i expect my mindset to be something pretty fragile....
ChinaMayne
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Would I be able to use St John's Wort as the Maoi? If so has anyone done this?
Psychedelic Gleam
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A caveat though, I came out of a profound ayahuasca experience after spending hours in a stream thrashing around violently on rocks and pulling at my hair (the trip report was posted earlier in this thread), So though most experiences are relatively motionless you can easily find yourself moving even though time and space have seemingly collapsed into a singularity within your own head.
I highly recommend a sitter in the proximity to watch out for your well being, should things get this rough.
Sykoknot
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I do recall reading your experience. Your case is a rarity. It is still a possibility, of course. But mental vulnerability is limited to none, when compared to classic psychs such as LSD, Mushrooms, or Mescal. I do suggest a sitter, but a shaman is not necessary.
Roger&Me
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What I find even more interesting about DMT, is how I have no idea who/what I am; but my inner monologue is completely unchanged from my sober state. I feel just like myself, despite having no concept of who that self is. Its bizarre.
Like I'll see a scary/wrathful entity and think "dude you're fuckin' scary, no joke..." just like I was my sober self playing a video game or something. Amazes me every time when I get back, how different I became but also how very much the same I remained. Whacky stuff. :D
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Whacky stuff indeed. I totally understand what your saying; the ego goes, but the Watcher iis still watching. At least when smoked...Ayahuasca is much different.
I plan to imbibe the holy drink over the weekend, I have a nice wood/tree spot; gonna use 70mg's of DMT, maybe a gram of mushrooms and b. caapi. Though I was thinking of using syrian rue, I can't really figure out a good dosage...
RigaCrypto
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I've read this thread end to end but found little in the way of comparisons. How would you compare oral DMT to 4-x-tryptamines? I mean especially in the headspace change, immersiveness and visuals. For me, 4-x-t's are serene, centering, clear-minded and with complex, solid visuals and vivid colors. On medium doses I feel almost as sober but with enhanced perception and cognition. What differences should I expect with oral DMT?
nonnihilnitoris
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An hour sounds about right, even with the capsules. Most people wait 45 minutes before the dmt, unless they are spacing out their rue doses to ease the nausea. If you are going with a heavier dose, you might want to space your doses out too. Doesn't mean you won't vomit, but it might just mean the difference between mild discomfort and severe discomfort.
daysonatrain
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^ thanks though i took the aya a week ago. crazy stuff its been a while since ive done this one and was instantly reminded of how incredibly beautiful dmt is, really my favorite psych.
Sublimit
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^^^^ i would assume that the enzymes would break it down too fast for anything to happen... for instance me and a mate snorted a point and a half of pure crystal DMT(the worst, felt like being hit in the eye with a brick) and felt minimal effects from the DMT for 15 minutes or so, very subtle.... but why waste it? either take it with a MAOI, or smoke it.
I chewed about 5 grams of syrian rue and then an hour later we dosed with the DMT... we had 3 capsules each containing 70mg of pure DMT. after waiting for the first to take effect we decided to take another 70mgs of DMT. we waited but there were only subtle things happening.... we only wanted it to be subtle, but were left disappointed, even the 3rd capsule didn't enhance the experience....
what could the problem be? we were previously smoking the exact same DMT(without inhibitors, and breaking through, total disconnection with the mind from the body) that we were taking this night. could it be that we needed to take more syrian rue? my friend suggested that we chewed the rue, but maybe ingesting it would be the issue, or just simply take more.... it's a delicate situation, because i plan on taking it for an Autechre gig this sat.... already changed my diet,
I chewed about 5 grams of syrian rue and then an hour later we dosed with the DMT... we had 3 capsules each containing 70mg of pure DMT. after waiting for the first to take effect we decided to take another 70mgs of DMT. we waited but there were only subtle things happening.... we only wanted it to be subtle, but were left disappointed, even the 3rd capsule didn't enhance the experience....
what could the problem be? we were previously smoking the exact same DMT(without inhibitors, and breaking through, total disconnection with the mind from the body) that we were taking this night. could it be that we needed to take more syrian rue? my friend suggested that we chewed the rue, but maybe ingesting it would be the issue, or just simply take more.... it's a delicate situation, because i plan on taking it for an Autechre gig this sat.... already changed my diet,
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adrian89987
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Well I think that Ismene considers orally consumed DMT to be very similar (aside from nausea differences) to mushrooms. I've not found this to be the case. Now the only 4 sub tryptamine that I have taken is mushrooms so i havn't had all too much to compare it to. However I found oral DMT to be much 'heavier' in a sense in that it seems like a much greater deal. My emotions are skewed far more and things are overall mentally more intense and serious. The visuals from oral DMT I can only describe as feeling crystal pure. I've found my oral DMT experiences to feel overall as a much more pure experience that mushrooms felt (though my mushroom experiences Did feel very amazingly beautiful).
Expect a more serious experience with O-DMT is what that bottom like is possibly (YMMV)
RigaCrypto
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Thank you Adrian. I'm looking forward to trying it for the first time, but based on what I've read, I'm taking it much more seriously than a regular psychedelic trip and I'm waiting for an occasion to do it in a proper setting, with an experienced trip sitter.
4-x-T's are my current favorite oral psychedelics (used to be LSD). I've noticed the following differences in smoked DMT:
-DMT is mainly perceptual. It has very little emotional or mental effect of its own. I feel sober on it, minus the visuals. The only thing that may scare me is the sudden come-up that may cause confusion and mind loops if I do not let go.
-on DMT, what I experience is REAL, ie, I perceive it as a change in the world, something coming from outside, not a change in my mind. On other psychedelics, my mind is more active and encompassing and my memory and emotions more vivid, and I can process them into insights, but those insights are theoretical, residing in my imagination. Integrating them, understanding them intuitively and bridging these theoretical models with my emotions and my real life is a separate process that I have to go through myself, afterwards, sober.
With DMT, what I think becomes real, as if it's always been that way. Not only do I get to SEE different insights into life, but I LIVE them, automatically and in the most natural way possible. I do not have to make any effort to transpose the insights into reality, they come from reality to begin with, and are fully integrated with my emotions. Basically, DMT does all the work for me and all I have to do is submit to that state so that I remember it and it stays with me. Spiritual experiences with other psychedelics feel like a struggle, a race against time to integrate the insights before they dissolve back into oblivion. For me, they are usually stressful for this very reason, and oftentimes tense and draining. On DMT, I feel like I'm pushing a magical button, and what I wish for becomes real. The emotional benefits I've had from it far surpass any other substance, and furthermore, they are a lot more reliable. With others it's hit or miss, and spiritually satisfying experiences may be pretty elusive.
-in the visual department, I find DMT very different. The best way I can put it, other psychedelics help me better enjoy this world, and DMT helps me create a new one. On mushrooms the world, and my imagination, become exquisitely beautiful. Crisp, deep colors, high definition vision showing me every detail, the world dancing and morphing into new shapes. With eyes closed, dreamscapes become real, with detail and clarity easily matching that of the real world, and far beyond what I can imagine sober.
DMT is the only psychedelic I've tried on which the world actually becomes LESS beautiful. Details are blotted away and the world becomes made of plastic. Colors are not enhanced. But in being changed, the world becomes another world, one in which I feel free of the past, and offered a new beginning.
With eyes closed, the visuals seem cleaner and much more vivid than on mushrooms, but not realistic, and lacking the beauty of the organic world. On mushrooms I see actual objects, buildings with intricate architecture and realistic textures, indistinguishable from the real world. DMT visuals seem more digital and 3D cartoonish, although I've also had glimpses of realistic worlds too. But I've yet to delve into this territory, as I am not very experienced with smoked DMT either, and I have a feeling that on higher doses, things may change qualitatively too.
I was basically curious whether these differences carry over into the oral experience too. I hope I'll find out pretty soon. I was thinking that maybe the realism and detail of the visuals may also depend on the length of the experience, and on an oral experience, my mind would be able to produce realistic worlds too.
And I've also read that the oral experience also varies with the MAOI used, moclobemide producing an experience most similar with smoked DMT and harmaloids significantly altering it.
4-x-T's are my current favorite oral psychedelics (used to be LSD). I've noticed the following differences in smoked DMT:
-DMT is mainly perceptual. It has very little emotional or mental effect of its own. I feel sober on it, minus the visuals. The only thing that may scare me is the sudden come-up that may cause confusion and mind loops if I do not let go.
-on DMT, what I experience is REAL, ie, I perceive it as a change in the world, something coming from outside, not a change in my mind. On other psychedelics, my mind is more active and encompassing and my memory and emotions more vivid, and I can process them into insights, but those insights are theoretical, residing in my imagination. Integrating them, understanding them intuitively and bridging these theoretical models with my emotions and my real life is a separate process that I have to go through myself, afterwards, sober.
With DMT, what I think becomes real, as if it's always been that way. Not only do I get to SEE different insights into life, but I LIVE them, automatically and in the most natural way possible. I do not have to make any effort to transpose the insights into reality, they come from reality to begin with, and are fully integrated with my emotions. Basically, DMT does all the work for me and all I have to do is submit to that state so that I remember it and it stays with me. Spiritual experiences with other psychedelics feel like a struggle, a race against time to integrate the insights before they dissolve back into oblivion. For me, they are usually stressful for this very reason, and oftentimes tense and draining. On DMT, I feel like I'm pushing a magical button, and what I wish for becomes real. The emotional benefits I've had from it far surpass any other substance, and furthermore, they are a lot more reliable. With others it's hit or miss, and spiritually satisfying experiences may be pretty elusive.
-in the visual department, I find DMT very different. The best way I can put it, other psychedelics help me better enjoy this world, and DMT helps me create a new one. On mushrooms the world, and my imagination, become exquisitely beautiful. Crisp, deep colors, high definition vision showing me every detail, the world dancing and morphing into new shapes. With eyes closed, dreamscapes become real, with detail and clarity easily matching that of the real world, and far beyond what I can imagine sober.
DMT is the only psychedelic I've tried on which the world actually becomes LESS beautiful. Details are blotted away and the world becomes made of plastic. Colors are not enhanced. But in being changed, the world becomes another world, one in which I feel free of the past, and offered a new beginning.
With eyes closed, the visuals seem cleaner and much more vivid than on mushrooms, but not realistic, and lacking the beauty of the organic world. On mushrooms I see actual objects, buildings with intricate architecture and realistic textures, indistinguishable from the real world. DMT visuals seem more digital and 3D cartoonish, although I've also had glimpses of realistic worlds too. But I've yet to delve into this territory, as I am not very experienced with smoked DMT either, and I have a feeling that on higher doses, things may change qualitatively too.
I was basically curious whether these differences carry over into the oral experience too. I hope I'll find out pretty soon. I was thinking that maybe the realism and detail of the visuals may also depend on the length of the experience, and on an oral experience, my mind would be able to produce realistic worlds too.
And I've also read that the oral experience also varies with the MAOI used, moclobemide producing an experience most similar with smoked DMT and harmaloids significantly altering it.