Lysergamides The Big & Dandy Non-LSD Ergoloids Blotter Thread

[DwayneHoover]

And to the above, no, Occams razor DOES suggest:

Vastly different broad-scale effects = SOME KIND if difference in the drug.

Common sense, simple direct obvious reasoning.

Yea, LSD has this infinitely flexible bag of tricks,some kind of super-chameleon drug that is TOTALLY DIFFERENT to every person every time, that manifests this or that totally random set of varying effects with every use. Poppycock.

 

[IamMe90]

And to the above, no, Occams razor DOES suggest:

Vastly different broad-scale effects = SOME KIND if difference in the drug.

Common sense, simple direct obvious reasoning.

Yea, LSD has this infinitely flexible bag of tricks,some kind of super-chameleon drug that is TOTALLY DIFFERENT to every person every time, that manifests this or that totally random set of varying effects with every use. Poppycock.

occam's razor does not meaningfully suggest anything in a vacuum ugh i'm not saying that your theory has no merit but to suggest the "simplest explanation" requires some sort of explanatory evidence in the first place which both have sides have pointed out is relatively non existent here

 

[Ismene]

Yea, LSD has this infinitely flexible bag of tricks,some kind of super-chameleon drug that is TOTALLY DIFFERENT to every person every time, that manifests this or that totally random set of varying effects with every use. Poppycock.

Well it's certainly not the same every time to everyone who takes it is it. Huxley said it varied between heaven and hell - that's quite a range of variation isn't it.

I wonder if they'll remake Jason and the Argonauts as Dwayne and the Ergoloids?

 

[Ismene]

Dude, scientists have been trusting LAB RATS to help them make very fine distinctions between the subjective effects of psychoactive chemicals for decades in thousands if scientific studies... and they can't even TALK!

Don't talk bollocks Dwayne. Rats couldn't give subjective information about LSD, that's why Hoffman had to take it himself.

The rats only worked with ergoloids...

 

[PsychedelicPeptide]

{ In response to my post about gas :-( }

I think that clinches it. This must be an alternative ergoloid.

Well actually in thinking back to previous LSD trips, I have had heartburn/acidic stomach-type reactions a few times. There's been a few trips where I would eat 20 or so rolaids just to keep my stomach feeling halfway normal.

But this new stuff. I don't know, its hard to say I haven't gotten heartburn at all just the stomach pain followed by expulsion of all stomach contents and gas, to finally get rid of the pain.

Personally I think its LSD, just that other life factors are possibly controlling the differences in effects.

Either way its strong enough to keep me from wanting to do it very often LOL.

 

[Tunnelfission]

LSD is itself subjectively different each time, i'm coming to terms with the fact that some of my trips were just failed launches. I was just insulted when LSD would give me a headache (maybe 4 out of 60 lifetime trips) and I just had to take a shot at it and assume it wasn't pure LSD or something. Just since LSD or ergot derivatives are supposed to crack through a headache.

then I recall the times when LSD would cut directly through an oncoming headache in my experience?

whhaa??

LSD is so... free and nameless in it's offerings that it just gives you a different prize every time you grab for it. it's very unreliable dose wise as well. sometimes I feel dandy to take 8 hits from a batch and sometimes 2 will bring my higher than I ever have been.

anyone know specifically what iso-LSD is? i've read in the past that this is what it degrades to when left in heat and light and it can cause more bodily sensations and less of a trip, anyone have any cohesive information on what LSD degrades to or what iso-LSD is?

 

[SKL]

iso-LSD forms when LSD is exposed to bases and lumi-LSD when it is exposed to water in the presence of light. both have been studied in man (by Nichols among others) in up to milligrams and are said to be totally inactive.

 

[shade404]

http://www.justice.gov/dea/programs/forensicsci/microgram/bulletins_index.html

Got this wrong. What else? Hmmm.

No, you're wrong. If you look at recent entries, you will note that they do not include the forensic samples section that made it interesting, as this has been removed from public view. Prior to that there were frequent reports of non-LSD blotter, but it was never found to have another lysergides on it (excluding ALD52 once). I say never because I read every issue and don't remember ever thinking about this before. Since the whole purpose of microgram was to report unusual seizures, you'd assume that non-LSD lysergide blotter seizures would have made that list.

I never suggested there wasn't some amount of this stuff around, clearly the thread shows there is or has been. However, claiming that it's the majority, or anything like the majority, of blotter in circulation is a baseless accusation that flies in the face of the available evidence.

I'm also confused by people claiming LSD is some kind of ever-changing totally unpredictable experience; I feel quite strongly the reverse. I have taken it ~50-60 times in the past 10-15 years, and though every experience is unique the central character has always been the same, in the same way that AMT have their own character, etc. I don't believe that I would mistake something with a 4 hour duration and different vibe for LSD, anymore than I would mistake DET for DMT.

 

[DwayneHoover]

Doh! K, I see what you mean about the actual juicy stuff that was was in Micrograms being removed. Well that bites. Somewhere someone suggested looking at this http://narcoticnews.com/ but its a far cry from the real poop from the real narcs.

 

[RigaCrypto]

It's funny that while I concede that the effects of a substance (including LSD) show considerable consistency, and that there are subtle differences between it and this putative LSB/P, the original difference I observed that made me get this blotter GC/MS'ed was entirely due to subjective factors.

That is, due to my focus during the trip and my success or failure in 'letting go', I was getting the inevitable distinction between tense and confusing trips that left me drained and totally clear-minded, energetic and serene trips with a great afterglow.

Subsequently, I had these two kind of trips on the same batch of the same substance (miprocin), but at the time, it happened that those few of the acid trips that went well for me had been on Alex Grey and Rolling Stones acid and all of those in which I had failed to let go were on these Hofmanns, some American WoW and some Hive print tabs.

Hence, I got the idea into my head that there might be another substance on them (which happened to be true, but not for the reasons I thought) and I sent the tabs for testing.

Since then, I've had confirmation that set and setting account for most of the spectrum of variation in psychedelic experiences, and that while it is easy to sense nuances of experience, it can be very tricky to ascribe those nuances correctly to subjective or objective factors.

 

[fly-]

^^^ Dunno bout that. Brand recognition plays a huge role, LSD has a market much bigger than psychedelic drug afficionados, and LSD means something to the layman, LSx does not.

That said, I still think 99% of the ergoloids being sold as LSD are in fact, LSD.

What you are saying is totally from someone that has always been a consumer and never been a dealer, or for the case, a sales person.

People, customers, whatever you wanna call it, will believe anything you tell them if you act with enough confidence on the product. Even someone that is a connoisseur still will buy blotters that were not proven LSD, because in the end, everyone wants one thing from this kind of illicit deal - to get high.

amanitadine, darling, did you even read the beginning of this thread? See my post here http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/showpost.php?p=9220649&postcount=6 (courtesy of Some Kinda Love). THERE IS YOUR DATA!!!

It begins with DOCUMENTED PROOF of a GC/MS of what was a VERY LARGE WIDESPREAD run of blotters a couple years ago... originating in Europe, but distributed worldwide, which I myself acquired a sheet of in the US... purported at the time to me as very clean "real" LSD. Which was a BIG FAT LIE!!! And when I did it, BEFORE I SAW THIS, many months ago, I thought, "well pretty pleasant drug, fairly clean feeling, but it does NOT seem like the BEST of the pure LSD I did about 1980-1982.. FAR less visual, FAR less 'sense of awe', and somewhat more bodyload." But I bought into all the hoo-haw being bandied about that "ITs all in your head... set and setting... you are just pining for the good ole days... get over it... ALL LSD IS IN FACT OF NECESSITY PERFECTLY GOOD CLEAN REAL PURE LSD, silly old hippie!" A faith-based wishful-thinking point of view that has, thanks mto SKL's efforts been proven WITH HARD DATA to be bullshit.

GC/MS test was done showing it was NOT LSD... also there are links to journal articles discussing active hallucinogenic ergoloids that are fully active at LSD doses and can fit on blotters. So its not as if these these are not out there. We have PROVEN that they ARE out there, and the print in question was known to be a HUGE run, probably tens if not hundreds of thousands of hits. I see no reason not to assume that it was just the tip of the iceberg.

Just to had something, this same blotters might still being produced.

I saw a A4 sheet of that hoffman / ohm back in end september 2010 @ amsterdam (8 months since last time i have seen them) . Unfortunately couldnt test at the time but interesting to see what would be this batch, new or old. The same person also had plenty alex gray / ganesha .

 

[IamMe90]

It's funny that while I concede that the effects of a substance (including LSD) show considerable consistency, and that there are subtle differences between it and this putative LSB/P, the original difference I observed that made me get this blotter GC/MS'ed was entirely due to subjective factors.

That is, due to my focus during the trip and my success or failure in 'letting go', I was getting the inevitable distinction between tense and confusing trips that left me drained and totally clear-minded, energetic and serene trips with a great afterglow.

Subsequently, I had these two kind of trips on the same batch of the same substance (miprocin), but at the time, it happened that those few of the acid trips that went well for me had been on Alex Grey and Rolling Stones acid and all of those in which I had failed to let go were on these Hofmanns, some American WoW and some Hive print tabs.

Hence, I got the idea into my head that there might be another substance on them (which happened to be true, but not for the reasons I thought) and I sent the tabs for testing.

Since then, I've had confirmation that set and setting account for most of the spectrum of variation in psychedelic experiences, and that while it is easy to sense nuances of experience, it can be very tricky to ascribe those nuances correctly to subjective or objective factors.

this is a reasonable explanation but apparently people are convinced by their subjective precision...

 

[Ismene]

I'm also confused by people claiming LSD is some kind of ever-changing totally unpredictable experience; I feel quite strongly the reverse. I have taken it ~50-60 times in the past 10-15 years, and though every experience is unique the central character has always been the same, in the same way that AMT have their own character, etc.

What central character are you referring to? Obviously you feel certain physical effects most times but are you saying that the mental effects are the same every time? And that they'll be the same for every human being on earth every time they take LSD?

 

[DwayneHoover]

There is of course a difference between the specific details of individual trips, and the broad generalizable "Character" of what a drug will do.

Some of the talk about "its always so different" seems to me to be getting hung up on the specifics of individual trips too much.

Yes details will vary, but the same drug will produce the same general type of effects in every person every time. "Mental" effects kinda sounds like it could be infinitely variable, but a certain set of effects on the visual system, which you might call "mental", SHOULD be fairly constant and a set effect of the drug, or not. OPEN EYE VISUALS, such as seeing trails/tracers following movement, "patterning" which is the filling in of areas of solid color with geometric or organic designs/textures ... these are one type of effect that normally characterizes "real" LSD. And in my experience it IS constant with the same batch.

Another class of effects are the physical effects. Does the drug create aches and pains in joints and muscles, nausea, dizzy sensations, weakness, etc. known of course as "body load. The same batch should produce a comparable amount of bodyload with consistency.

A given molecule has a given effect on the brain in a certain way. I just dont go along with the notion that LSD will have this wildly varying random level of these effects with every use. It causes alot of visual effects, especially the open eye visual effects described above. And it causes very LOW levels of "body load." Yes pretty much every time in every person. The times you get a batch with little or no visual effects and alot of body load seem quite obvious a different chemical is somehow involved. Saying "Oh its all just LSD" is bullshit.

Now the details of the CONTENTS of the trip from a psychological, mental, emotional perspective, yes obviously that is going to be different in every person every time.

 

[Shambles]

I disagree. Visuals (OEV and CEV) can be present, absent, intense or mild and bodyfeel also hugely variable from tabs all from the same sheet for me. Even dose doesn't seem to make as much of a difference as I'd expect - have had way more visuals and general psychedelia from a single tab than with three or four from the same sheet (and vice versa) frequently. The tabs in question have often been laid by somebody I know (and yes they do know what they are doing I can assure you) and tested in the Netherlands meaning they are shown to be acid and the ug dose per tab is also known.

Acid is different every time for me in pretty much every way. Of course acid had a unique character, but it is a character with a very, very wide range of effects indeed. I still don't doubt that these LS? tabs likely exist, but I also still believe them to be extremely rare cos otherwise they would be being flagged up through testing cos the majority of tabs (certainly those that I come across) in European circulation tend to be tested so substance and dose per tab is known - actually tested independently rather than subjectively judged.

 

[DwayneHoover]

Shambles, your super variable experience is strange to me.

 

[SKL]

Shambles took the words right out of my mouth.

I have also had "super-variable" experiences on LSD, and not just on LSD, but on a great variety of other drugs as well ...

I remain convinced that "L-alike" analogues have circulated and continue to circulate on a relatively small scale. However, to attribute any and all variation in the characteristics of an LSD experience to the presence of different chemicals is not reasonable. LSD has a dizzyingly wide range of possible effects across various dimensions, for instance, at similar doses I have had experiences that were highly visual or almost entirely devoid of visuals, on exactly the same material. I would also bet that there is a lot of variation in the effects of the analogues.

Not only is ergoloid pharmacology dizzyingly complex but the nature of the psychedelic experience means that psychological and environmental factors can be just as important in determine the qualitative nature of the experience as pharmacological ones. Analogues and/or impurities probably account for only a small percentage of the variation in subjective effects between different experiences. Actually as I've said before I bet that many people could not distinguish between close analogues in a blind taste test. Subjective experiences are going to get us nowhere in learning more about the analogue-on-blotter question. The only thing that is going to settle this is more hard data and more definitive hard data, which hopefully will be forthcoming in the near future.

 

[RigaCrypto]

Yes details will vary, but the same drug will produce the same general type of effects in every person every time.
...

A given molecule has a given effect on the brain in a certain way. I just dont go along with the notion that LSD will have this wildly varying random level of these effects with every use.

I agree that substances have the same TYPE of effects. For example, LSD visuals for me are always open-eye moving fractal patterns without much color enhancement, static deformation of objects and organic patterns in textures. Closed eye visuals are fluid, moving organic patterns and objects in solid, clearly delineated colors, akin to computer graphics. Likewise, the nature of the bodyload is very consistent and feels like tension to the point of being afraid I'll pop an artery in my brain.

But the LEVEL does vary immensely. I've had trips on three tabs with no visuals whatsoever and huge tension-induced bodyload and one-tab trips from the same sheet with clear visuals and a clear mind space. I've also had trips with no visuals until the end, when I finally managed to let go and visuals literally popped out of the woodwork. Likewise for all psychedelic substances I've tried.

And these differences may seem RANDOM, and indeed they seemed like this to me in the beginning, but as I grew to know myself better and to gain experience with psychedelics, I noticed that they are strongly correlated with my set, setting and conduct during the trip. If these are fairly constant for you and you are a well balanced person, I wouldn't be surprised if trips were very consistent for you. But this isn't the case for me and probably for many others.

The best explanation for this phenomenon I can come up this is that it is a simple matter of focus. When I am focused on my thoughts and concerns, this occupies most of my field of attention, working memory and 'processing power' and mutes down input from the outside world. Indeed, when I'm in introspective mode, I usually feel derealized and dissociated from the outside world.

When I 'let go' of my train of thought (which can be an extremely difficult thing, because oftentimes it seems of vital importance during a trip) my working memory clears, I go through something akin to a mini-sleep and I feel like a huge weight has been taken off my shoulders. I feel reborn, free and cleansed. The body load goes away, leaving me full of energy and the outside world comes flooding in through my sensory channels, including the rich visuals that before had been inhibited.

I've experienced this transition clearly, sometimes repeatedly, during trips. And this is what I meant by variation due to subjective factors, a variation which is fairly consistent across all psychedelics, and which I've learned to tell apart from the differences between individual substances, which are very consistent in themselves.

 

[DwayneHoover]

Elsewhere I have read posts going on at length about all sorts of variations in non-lsd ergoloids that would seem to me to sort of imply that there is alot more variability in "acid chemistry" than you and others keep arguing.

"...to attribute any and all variation in the characteristics of an LSD experience to the presence of different chemicals is not reasonable."

Of course "any and all variation" is not due to the substance(s). Every trip will have a different detailed set of experiences, thought and feelings. But phrasing it that way puts the focus on those fine details, which is muddling the issue.

To say that the exact same material at random will cause

Trip A: extensive open eye visuals, zero to very little body load
Trip B: no visuals, extreme body load

is also not reasonable. Never happened to me when I had a quantity on hand. Same batch always tended to do pretty much same thing. I cant comprehend where you guys are coming from claiming this. It is very much at odds with my experience, and that of others I know, and does not make pharmacological sense.

It keeps being repeated, but I feel it is an extraordinary claim. Perhaps I have an extraordinary brain that responds in a far higher consistency than yours does, I dunno.

But anyway, good discussion, I feel we are getting down to the nitty-gritty of the "different effects" aspects of the inquiry. Well sort of. Seems difficult to ever really quantify such things when a trip can last for such a long time and contain so many separate "momentary impression units."

 

[Shambles]

And these differences may seem RANDOM, and indeed they seemed like this to me in the beginning, but as I grew to know myself better and to gain experience with psychedelics, I noticed that they are strongly correlated with my set, setting and conduct during the trip. If these are fairly constant for you and you are a well balanced person, I wouldn't be surprised if trips were very consistent for you. But this isn't the case for me and probably for many others.

Bingo.

Totally agree that the "random" variation between trips seems far less random if you look back and consider the wider context at the time. Set and setting totally explains all the differences between all the trips I've had, in my opinion. A simple example - at an EADD meet at a psytrance night a while back I took 500ug of acid and had one of the most recreational, visual and euphoric LSD experiences of my life with the "classic" electric energy bodyfeel.

Some weeks later at home alone I took the same dose of the same tabs and the trip was analytical, emotional and almost devoid of visuals with a fairly uncomfortable bodyfeel and little or no energy boost. Totally different trips with adjacent tabs from the same sheet.

Obviously the setting and set were very different and the experience fitted in with said S&S. As far as I'm concerned the extraordinarily wide range of more subtle variations during all my other LSD experiences is entirely down to the more subtle variations in S&S as it changes constantly from minute to minute, day to day. I remain convinced that I have never come across anything sold as LSD that wasn't LSD. I'm not saying that is the case for everybody but I strongly suspect it is the case for the vast majority of people.