The Big & Dandy Methoxetamine Thread - 5th Dose (you took too much, seriously)

[Kbonzai]

Different runs of what I would asume is the "commercial" synthesis of both ketamine and MXE do not generate different "ratios" of enatiomers. They produce racemic product 100% of the time unless you use chiral starting materials. You have to start doing wacky chiral synthesis or do crystallization with L-tartaric acid or something to generate enantiomerically pure MXE/Ketamine. This is how Ketaset-S is produced, I think. To the best of my knowledge, unless the guys who make esketamine are blending the R-ketamine into other batches of "normal" ketamine, all commericial and street ketamine that isn't specifically S or R should be racemic.

Perhaps you could build/buy a polarimeter and figure out the specific rotation? My money's on it being 0. I think it's set and setting, or tolerance.

It could also be your supposedly "reliable" vendors are shipping fine white sand as MXE. You never know without some lab skills.

I mean I have very limited chemistry knowledge I was just wondering why there would be differences between batches of MXE. I mean really I could be getting a totally different product and be completely oblivious as is the danger of buying miscellaneous white powders off the internet. Thank you for your reply though.

 

[psood0nym]

Different runs of what I would asume is the "commercial" synthesis of both ketamine and MXE do not generate different "ratios" of enatiomers. They produce racemic product 100% of the time unless you use chiral starting materials. You have to start doing wacky chiral synthesis or do crystallization with L-tartaric acid or something to generate enantiomerically pure MXE/Ketamine. This is how Ketaset-S is produced, I think. To the best of my knowledge, unless the guys who make esketamine are blending the R-ketamine into other batches of "normal" ketamine, all commericial and street ketamine that isn't specifically S or R should be racemic.

Perhaps you could build/buy a polarimeter and figure out the specific rotation? My money's on it being 0. I think it's set and setting, or tolerance.

It could also be your supposedly "reliable" vendors are shipping fine white sand as MXE. You never know without some lab skills.

I made a similar claim about ratios earlier as this has been my understanding, too. However, see post #334 (and a few posts up from it) to review claims of "synthesis scale" affecting the ratio so radically as to potentially result in 5:95 ratios (but totally unpredictably). If you have knowledge of how synthesis affects such ratios I'd be interested in seeing a counterpoint to the referenced post.

Regardless of whether high variance exists in said ratios between batches of MXE, I believe that the contribution to trip variance by set and setting far overlaps whatever intrinsic differences in enatiomer ratios are likely to contribute (based on my experiences with what was sold as S-ketamine from a widely-trusted vendor). I base this on the fact that the affects of set and setting are oftentimes incomprehensible and thus inaccessible to us, whereas the idea of such ratios affecting the trip is salient and quantifiable, and so it is natural to latch onto the idea and weigh it more heavily than it's perhaps due because it offers some kind of intuitively sensible answer.

 

[crOOk]

I'm starting to get kinda burnt out on mxe... at least most of the time... its kinda exhausting after a while...

Like I mentioned earlier, that's exactly what daily pcp use did to me. It got extremely exhausting after a while. Now today, being diagnosed as depressed multiple times, but knowing I have a manic side as well, I know the feeling of not being able to carry through which an unnaturally high "energy level" very well, especially when there's no one to share it. As is the case with these drugs. Now 2-4weeks after the last use depression usually kicks in for me, so watch out and be prepared for that if you are anything like me. Pretty sneaky stuff that dust...

 

[crOOk]

Botulism toxin. The toxins are just chemical bacterial byproducts that are sometimes poisons. I think a lot of times if there's enough bacteria in a clear solution that you might need to worry about the effects of toxins that the solution would be cloudy due to a massive colony of bacteria, something you'd know by sight not to inject.

One way to help kill off many bacteria, fungi, and viruses is simply to dump vinegar on your compound. Just a few drops of 5% acetic acid straight from the bottle to soak it should be fine, wait two minutes, then dilute with sterile water so it won't sting (preservative-free contact lens cleaning solution is basically cheap sterile saline you can get at most convenience stores). See this abstract on using 1:1 or 1:3 ratio white vinegar:water to kill the HIV virus in heroin injections. Vinegar, along with heating to boiling, or near that temp, (I set a vial with a low volume of drug/water on top of my toaster oven and pull the lever for quick easy heating) will kill off a lot (microwaving works well, too, but can make the solution leap out of the bottle after just a few seconds if it boils violently). if you add micron filtering on top of this it should cover most baddies you stand a realistic chance of encountering. If you aren't going to get micron filters, though, the first two steps with vinegar and heating are easy, quick, cheap, and will still cover quite a few bases.

I'd like to mention that vinegar will not ill off all living organisms or virii, let alone get rid of possibly contained toxines. I store my amphetamine in solution, since it comes with a high content of amphetamine freebase and have noticed fungus growing at anything above a pH of 1. Then there are of course Heicobacter pylori who feel comfy even in strong acids. I doubt they pose any issue whatsoever here, just trying to name an example of an organism who doesn't mind the vinegar.
There is also a whole genus of tiny bacteria who are referred to as Mycoplasmae. They are very small and lack a cell wall, which enables them to pass through your micron filters. A lot of these bacteria are also known pathogens in humans. I'm not sure about any clinical relevance this could have for IV users, but I wanted to point out that these ghetto ways of sterilizing an IV solution are far from perfect.

Heating will not provide a 100% elimination rate either for similar reasons. Bodybuilders are often using benzyl alcohol to sterilize their IM solutions, though at concentrations that are suitable for injection, this stuff has to sit for quite some time (more than a week I think) to work it's magic. And again, a lot of non living particles might escape this substance I think.

Not saying what you suggested (vingear for iv injections) isn't very handy or great advice, but make no mistake thinking you're safe with this. Btw if the burn gets too bad I'd assume you can adjust the pH with sodium bicarbonate instead of plain water. I was wondering, has anyone ever tried using HCl for sterilizing these solutions, then add NaOH later pre injection? That'd yield NaCl+H2O after all and HCl would surely do a better job than vinegar to kill off the bacteria. Just wondering, I'm no IV user myself, so please don't take this as practical advice proven to work.

While I'm running at risk to seem like I'm trying to discredit your post, I'd also like to note that pricing information is not allowed!

Yes, we still have rules here, even if the mods are all high. ~atara

 

[crOOk]

Fucking laws, I used to order excellent K over the net for a cpl of Euros. Once customs seized 30g, wrote a letter and asked if it was mine. Since it's only scheduled as medication I told em it's mine and they sent it my way. LOL! These days I only do it when my friend throws me some crumbs, no way in hell I'm gonna pay that much money to get wasted! :/

 

[sn23]

Many thanks for your input limonov, sekio, crOOk, psood0nym. It's really great to see the views of more experienced people. Please keep the information flowing in, this is harm reduction at its best

limonov, yes, I may be seen as dramatizing, and being overthinking and a bit of a hypochonder certainly doesn't help I know it is a decision I have to make myself but I would like be as responsible as possible and to collect information to base on.

sekio, thanks for bringing up bacterial toxins and pyrogens. From what I gathered those can't be reliably eliminated with heating and/or acidifying, but shouldn't be much of an issue, if one always prepares fresh solutions and uses them directly (i. e. no time for bacteria to grow and produce toxins), is that about right?

psood0nym, thanks for your input and sharing your procedure again. I am thinking about getting the solution to a boil / near boiling temperature, let it cool in a syringe and then press it through the microfilter into another syringe. That plus using pharmaceutical sterile water, the remaining obvious issues would be contaminations of the substance and the weighing equipment, that is, the spatula, weighing surface and the container to get the stuff into solution. Would treatment with ethanol and/or isopropanol likely be sufficient?

crOOk, thanks for bringing up mycoplasmae. I read of those tiny things when thinking about pore sizes and what bacteria possibly remain after "most of them are microfiltered out".

I hope that doesn't derail the thread too much. Maybe at some time the gathered information could be summarized and posted / linked to the microfiltering thread.

My background on enantioselective synthesis isn't good, but to my understanding the excess of one enantiomer is negligible if no chiral precursors or catalysts are used and I think those are too expensive and splitting of racemic compounds seems too time consuming.

Kbonzai, maybe that is linked to developing tolerance to one or another aspect of its effects, is that possible?

With regard to the ketamine/methoxetamine price, that certainly is determined by where you live. Over here a bit south of Germany ketamine is too expensive and usually of unsatisfying quality.

 

[sekio]

The point I was trying to make (stating the presence of bacterial toxins) was just a warning that once your solution spoils it's not a smart idea to micron filter and inject anyway.

The only time I have seen fancy chiral syntheses that produce a 5:95 ratio (that's actually amazing in the chem world) they are a hell of a lot more complex than the "normal, racemic" syntheses. I cannot see the standard ketamine synthesis (condense a benzonitrile and cyclopentyl grignard, brominate, hydrolyse, aminate, rearrange) producing chiral intermediates at any step unless you did a chiral bromination.

 

[crOOk]

The point I was trying to make (stating the presence of bacterial toxins) was just a warning that once your solution spoils it's not a smart idea to micron filter and inject anyway.

The only time I have seen fancy chiral syntheses that produce a 5:95 ratio (that's actually amazing in the chem world) they are a hell of a lot more complex than the "normal, racemic" syntheses. I cannot see the standard ketamine synthesis (condense a benzonitrile and cyclopentyl grignard, brominate, hydrolyse, aminate, rearrange) producing chiral intermediates at any step unless you did a chiral bromination.

Before speculations go any further, here is some information on how the industry is doing this... There is no chiral synthesis of ketamine (which favors either isomer) that I know of or could find out about and as sekio stated, it's very unlikely there is one at all considering the reaction steps.

Splitting the isomers through recrystallisation with the aid of tartaric acid in acetonitrile used to be relatively common. Acetonitrile is nasty stuff so they switched to H2O+Acetone as the preferred medium. There have been a lot of similar ways to do this, but they were all relatively poor.

While there other ways to do this that yield a higher purity (using chrial surfactants), they're not practical for industrial production. That's why I'm only gonna list this one method which yields a purity of >95% in a single step:

-A 0,1-1M solution of enantiomerically unpure ketamine freebase in [acetone/THF/C1-C6-alcohols]+H2O (5-20% of the latter) is created, the exact desired concentration depends on the solvent; acetone is preferred; to yield this solution, temperatures between 30 and 56 °C will be needed; the water can be added afterwards or beforehand, it doesn't really matter
-Once the racemic ketamine base has gone into solution and the water is in there as well, l-tartaric acid is added to this solution (if the s isomer should be isolated first). The molar amount should be below that of ketamine, anything between 25% and 80% works fine; the l-tartaric acid is added and the desired ketamine enantiomer in his tartrate salt form should fall out of solution
-Filter (or separate however you like)
-Wash with the same solvent used earlier
-dissolve in water (20% concentration max), add naoh (not the only base thatll do the trick ;P) till ph is at 9+, watch the base fall out of solution
-Filter (or separate however you like)
-make hcl salt or whatever im tired blah

pretty simple process, no need for a complex synthesis. this separation method is cheap, fast and yields a highly enantiomerically pure product of 95+%

 

[sekio]

Yes, that is the seperation I'm referring to that's used in commercial esketamine synthesis. I do wonder what happens to the "excess" arketamine. I have a nagging suspicion that it's either a "waste product" and discarded or sold to SigmaAldrich or it's simply oxidised back to a ketone and reaminated over and over. Maybe you can do something akin to the methylphenidate purification with boiling HCl to eliminate chirality (I think that's what's used - methylphenidate is convetred to L-trans-methylphenidate and the other enantiomers have their chirality repeatedly destroyed until you can effect a 90% or whatever conversion)

In any case I wonder why polarimeters are not more common among K users. It's a surefire way for testing your enantiomeric ratio and it's not all that expensive to find one.

 

[the toad]

Sekio & crook... its discussions like this that make me truly love bluelight...

As far as chemistry goes I've taken a little bit of lower division chem classes and found them to be kinda useless for any type of chemistry that interests me... but info like this I find priceless...

I'm not a chemist and am not interested in learning all the details but its great to have such knowledgeable people such as yourselves providing such information so us non-chemists can do some of these basic chemistry procedures without having to get a degree in chemistry

 

[Disassociated]

I'm one of those dumbasses who took too much.

In retrospect I believe I dosed myself, forgot about it, then dosed myself again.

And got arrested after taking a little stroll in my Samurai outfit.

The officers who took me in (by that time I had regained some semblance of a functional personality) were very understanding and obviously enjoyed my blissful radiance and demeanor.
After a couple of hours they let me go. No fine, no legal hassles, nothing.
They even let me keep the katana.

I'm terribly ashamed of what happened and I'm lucky the cops didn't tase me or worse.

People please be extremely careful with MXE or avoid it altogether.
MXE isn't ketamine and an overdose may not render you immobile. Anything could happen. ANYTHING.

Don't let it happen to YOU.

And don't think "What could possibly go wrong? I'm a sensible, responsible and intelligent adult!" because I happen to be a sensible, responsible and intelligent adult too and the shit hit the fan bigtime anyway.

 

[ColtDan]

im also a dumbass and took too much a few months ago. did too much when drunk and on mephedrone. M-holed face down on some guys kitchen floor, dissolved into everything. then tried sticking my head in the washing machine. reality pealed apart like an onion. didnt know the fuck was going on. kept having very real out of body experiences of staggering outside and the sky raining piss. thought i was soaked in piss

most of my experiences on this stuff have been quite twisted... turns me into a retard. doesn't seem to mix well with quite a lot of alcohol

so very easy to forget how much you've taken, or be wreck lace with it etc. dont give this stuff respect and it will teach you a lesson

 

[sekio]

Between the tools who take X hundred milligrams and black the fuck out when wandering around naked, and the pseudomanic "This drug fixed everything in my life!! Best experience ever!!! Does anyone else feel like this is Soma/Ambrosia???" I think this is really closer to PCP in terms of "experience". Mania and delusions abound. I haven't seen this much pseudoscience and stupid speculation since the early 2000s around the DXM community. Scrying through the old Big and Dandy threads leads me to believe that a lot of users have the mental acuity of a 13 year old on cough syrup. Lots of them seem driven to daily dosing or rapid escalation of tolerance due to 150 milligram nasal doses. There's no respect here for a compound that seriously deserves it.

As for the people who complain that daily use of MXE leads to "just feeling dissociated", what the hell do you expect. It is a dissociative. It's well known that repeated, daily usage of any euphoric dopamine activity modifier (methylphenidate, amphetamine, MPA, ketamine, MDPV et cetera.) leads to loss of euphoria!

It's impossible to live in drugged out bliss all the time. If you do strive for that goal you will have a roughly equal amount of misery on the other end. Don't fly too close to the sun or your wax wings will melt, Icarus.

 

[ColtDan]

^ this

 

[polidelaiko]

Weird, for me, daily use of MXE leads to tolerance of the dissociative state, but the clean stimulation stays... at least for a while I guess.

 

[IamMe90]

Between the tools who take X hundred milligrams and black the fuck out when wandering around naked, and the pseudomanic "This drug fixed everything in my life!! Best experience ever!!! Does anyone else feel like this is Soma/Ambrosia???" I think this is really closer to PCP in terms of "experience". Mania and delusions abound. I haven't seen this much pseudoscience and stupid speculation since the early 2000s around the DXM community. Scrying through the old Big and Dandy threads leads me to believe that a lot of users have the mental acuity of a 13 year old on cough syrup. Lots of them seem driven to daily dosing or rapid escalation of tolerance due to 150 milligram nasal doses. There's no respect here for a compound that seriously deserves it.

As for the people who complain that daily use of MXE leads to "just feeling dissociated", what the hell do you expect. It is a dissociative. It's well known that repeated, daily usage of any euphoric dopamine activity modifier (methylphenidate, amphetamine, MPA, ketamine, MDPV et cetera.) leads to loss of euphoria!

It's impossible to live in drugged out bliss all the time. If you do strive for that goal you will have a roughly equal amount of misery on the other end. Don't fly too close to the sun or your wax wings will melt, Icarus.

Wow, so two posters who admitted that what they did was stupid, admitting feeling ashamed of their actions, and posted their embarrassing experiences in an attempt to warn people of the negative consequences of abusing this drug catalyzed you to make such a sanctimonious and quite frankly uncalled for condescending post?

This is why I hate advanced drug discussion moderators and love PD moderators, because they tend to have some god damn empathy for people and can look past idiocy while you guys seemed to be obsessed with idiocy and making examples of well intentioned idiots all the time. What was the point of this? To make two posters who shared their private and shameful experiences in an attempt to help other people feel like shit? Christ. Get off your high horse, you apparently mistake-impervious God.

 

[the toad]

I've said it before... if your taking higher doses of this stuff you need to have a babysitter... at least the first few times till you know how you will react...

@sekio- I share your opinion that this stuff is much more like pcp than ket... when you get "holed out" you aren't stuck on the floor... your up and wanting to do stuff... irrational stuff.. you feel like a god or something and think you can do anything...

I've never had any serious issues with this but there have been a few times that were close... like getting an idea to do something that you know will be your demise but not caring because you know that you are immortal...

This stuff has truly scared me a few times... not at the time but later after I'm sober its like wow I really thought I could do that and it would work out ok... I'm sure glad I had the supervision of experienced friends to make sure I didn't go and get myself killed or even worse endanger others in these trips...

This stuff isn't pot or something... its a very powerful mind altering substance... it deserves the utmost respect...

I find that smaller doses are better anyway... if you wanna hole out... do some ket...

 

[ColtDan]

you aren't stuck to the floor? what.... ive seen people hole on this stuff and be pinned to the floor. myself included.... read above

ive had ego deaths from this stuff similar to dmt. you dont move too much in that state

 

[psood0nym]

Crook: Don't worry, I harbor no illusions about ghetto sterilization techniques killing absolutely everything. As stated, I only mean to claim it will kill off "a lot". I posted it because I think telling people something easy, accessible, and cheap that will kill off many common bugs will prevent more infections than only mentioning micron filters or some seemingly difficult or expensive to obtain anti-viral-fungal-etc, simply because we're more likely to bother with something we perceive as fast, cheap, and easy.

I'm curious. Do you agree with Sekio that the methoxetamine on the market is unlikely to vary in its ratio of enantiomers. Earlier in the thread (I referenced the post # at the top of this page) there were claims that "synthesis scale" and the humidity of the air in an open-air reaction could drastically alter these ratios, with the result being that different batches of methoxetamine may be extremely different in this respect (and thereby have different subjective effects).

Sn23: The benzyl alcohol Crook mentioned sounds like a decent preservative. You should be able to find a suitable concentration for injection by searching for steroid injection preparation techniques that use it. I prepare all my IM injections straight from weighed out powder to shot rather than create a large volume of solution to use and reuse. One way to prepare a large volume of solution you can use over and over again without worrying so much about sterilization for IMimg is just to plug it instead! Plugging is almost as quick and potent as IM, so I haven't bothered with IMing methoxetamine since discovering that.

 

[Disassociated]

^ this

I second that.

Scrying through the old Big and Dandy threads leads me to believe that a lot of users have the mental acuity of a 13 year old on cough syrup.

I was born in 1961 and score in the 150's in IQ tests.
The difference between me and the aforementioned 13 year old or for that matter a drunk chicken is tiny.
Tiny.
Humans aren't very intelligent in their natural state.

Look around you: the things we do, the persons we are, are totally void of inherent meaning and value.
The miraculous fact that we actually exist is beyond our comprehension.

Nobody understands what's happening and most don't even notice.
They get into their car and drive to work.

The thing/conciousness/god/whatever we are itself doesn't even understand what the hell is going on because he/we/it can't.

It just is.

Got it? I don't.

Back to consensus reality.
I'm one of those dumbasses who took too much.
I'm also one of those "This drug fixed everything in my life!!" persons (actually it was me who did the fixing, MXE was the tool) but I hesitate to go into details because people are so *%&^%&@ stupid and may repeat the mistake I made.

I believe MXE should be a 'controlled substance'.
Not in a legal sense but people/dumbasses who want to reprogram their personality with it should do so in controlled conditions, with qualified supervisors attending.
Others should avoid it.