☛ Official ☚ The Big & Dandy DOC Thread - Third opinion

[pharmakos]

"more benign" as in DOx is relatively benign in the first place, but the 2Cs are even more benign.

if you think one confirmed fatality in 20+ years of existence is dangerous then idk man. look at how many deaths designers stimulants / empathogens / cannabinoids / other phenethylamines like NBOMEs and dragonflies have caused, some of them within a few months of hitting the market. yes, there is a rare chance of DOC causing complications, but all evidence shows that it is several orders of magnitude more benign than a lot of other RCs.

I warned of these risks earlier and people said I was wrong, then the user on the Shroomery od'ed, almost died, and lost his toes.

he took like a 30x overdose, didn't he? if he had taken a 30x overdose of 25I he would have lost a lot more than his toes.

If this chemical is distributed as widely as 25I-NBOMe we should expect more seizures and fatalities. These fatalities further tarnish the reputation of safe and therapeutic psychedelics and fuel the drug wars.

maybe you're just new to the scene? DOC has been around for a really long time. 25I started showing its bad side almost immediately after it hit the market. DOC has caused a fraction of the complications 25I has, and has done so with a much longer history than 25I.

 

[Help?!?!]

It's just far to obsessive IMO. Every chemical is dangerous in one way or another, and taking enough of anything will kill you or cause harm. Plus 2c-x have killed before as well so why aren't you roaming those threads with warnings as well? Showing bias in that sense shows you have an obsession rather than just general concern, IMO..... I think it's excellent to the warn people, but blowing things out of proportion will only cause fear mongering, propaganda, and misinformation which is what most people are currently working to change as its shown to be more dangerous than anything. You should feel that your warnings will stand and those willing, will heed them...

 

[SteamboatBillJr]

Good observation, I haven't posted warnings in threads on chemicals with less selective 5HT2a binding. This is because both my experience and Shulgin's experience proved most of these other chemicals were safer than DOX.

 

[Xorkoth]

I don't agree that I'm being irresponsible (as you suggested) because I talk about my experiences with DOC and tell people what I think about its value as a drug. Yes, there are dangers present that aren't with some other psychedelics. The biggest one is the need to use responsible dosing procedures and dosages, which is no reason to discard a drug. They are also not as benign as some other phenethylamines and tryptamines and LSD. However, the risk in taking them seems to me to be demonstrably small. I've read of a few isolated horrible reactions to almost every drug there is, including the classics. The shroomery dude took a tremendously massive overdose. Of course he lost his toes. Imagine taking 30 or more times the regular dose of 2C-B, or 2C-E. Or mescaline. Or almost any drug. You can't demonize an entire family of psychedelics because someone lost his toes from taking 30 times the recreational dosage and one person was confirmed dead from it in decades of use. DOC is a good psychedelic, a really enjoyable and useful state. Given that we all already choose to undergo some level of risk by using drugs at all, it seems ridiculous to me to see the available evidence (both in reported adverse events as well as the plethora of people on here with plenty of first-hand experience) and come to the conclusion that it's dangerous enough to go on a crusade against it in particular out of all available targets. All psychedelics can be dangerous. People have allergic reactions to nuts and die. Different things affect different people differently. No one should be taking a lot of DOC regularly, but isolated cases where a trip is desired do not pose significant risk to most individuals, any more so than a wide range of other drugs people take.

And the DOXs already had a turn at being widely distributed as LSD before the NBOMEs became available... there were certainly bad trips but you'd think you would have heard of all kinds of horrible things happening to people if they're as dangerous as you say, because it was widespread.

And Shulgin saying they were "more benign" does not imply they're the opposite of benign. it's simply a value statement on the 2C-Xs... he was saying they're safer than DOXs, that's it. And in general I agree with that (though 2C-T-7 has caused a lot more deaths and hospitalizations than any DOX has), but it doesn't mean he was saying they're malignant. Saying that is a breach in logic which suggests to me that, due to personal experience perhaps, you want to believe that DOC is as dangerous as you claim so you're willing to at least subconsciously abandon logic to make your point.

 

[pharmakos]

Good observation, I haven't posted warnings in threads on chemicals with less selective 5HT2a binding. This is because both my experience and Shulgin's experience proved most of these other chemicals were safer than DOX.

have you read the story part of PiHKAL (Book 1), or just the Book 2 part with all the chemistry that is on Erowid?

Shulgin LOVED the DOx's. particularly DOB.

 

[relbatnrut]

what about 2C-T-7?

IMO if you are careful about the dose, there is very little than will go wrong. not sure why you're so worried.

 

[Help?!?!]

Good observation, I haven't posted warnings in threads on chemicals with less selective 5HT2a binding. This is because both my experience and Shulgin's experience proved most of these other chemicals were safer than DOX.

Well you just proved...in a sense that your warnings are useless as you've tried to make our replies! Why, you might be inclined to ask? Well good sir, like us you based your observations not on fact(yeah yeah someone took an absurb dose and got fucked, what'd you expect for them to get super powers or come out better?)but on experience! I hate to say it....but don't you think we've seen many of you on this site?!? Granted your more composed and intelligent clearly, it's just to bad your not putting it to good use...

 

[Nexus_Tripper]

Good observation, I haven't posted warnings in threads on chemicals with less selective 5HT2a binding. This is because both my experience and Shulgin's experience proved most of these other chemicals were safer than DOX.

Get out of this thread. You are clearly a DOXophobe. Just because you can't handle DOXes doesn't mean you should harass those who can.

 

[pharmakos]

^ eh, now that's not cool either. he's just showing concern based on the facts that he knows. there are better fights to fight, but i wouldn't say he was harassing anyone, and i hope he does stay in the thread.

 

[InterestingFACT]

what about 2C-T-7?

IMO if you are careful about the dose, there is very little than will go wrong. not sure why you're so worried.

2C-T-7 displays clinically significant monoamine oxidase inhibition at doses comparable to its recreational dose. Consider that methoxyamphetamine (4-ma) is so commonly lethal for precisely this reason.

You're right that with suitable care it can be used fairly safely... But the potential for complications through overdose, drug interactions, or variable absorption is considerably higher than the vast majority of other psychedelic drugs.

Interestingly, since we're on the topic of DOCs safety profile (again... sigh), 2c-t-7 is an order of magnitude more dangerous than DOC.

I will also mention that even nbomes are less risky in terms of their drug interaction profile... Though of course their potential for spontaneous complications makes them impossible to use safely, unlike 2c-t-7.

 

[tryp2fun]

2C-T-7 displays clinically significant monoamine oxidase inhibition at doses comparable to its recreational dose. Consider that methoxyamphetamine (4-ma) is so commonly lethal for precisely this reason.

You're right that with suitable care it can be used fairly safely... But the potential for complications through overdose, drug interactions, or variable absorption is considerably higher than the vast majority of other psychedelic drugs.

Interestingly, since we're on the topic of DOCs safety profile (again... sigh), 2c-t-7 is an order of magnitude more dangerous than DOC.

I will also mention that even nbomes are less risky in terms of their drug interaction profile... Though of course their potential for spontaneous complications makes them impossible to use safely, unlike 2c-t-7.

Biochem Pharmacol. 2007 Jan 15;73(2):287-97. Epub 2006 Sep 24.
Identification of monoamine oxidase and cytochrome P450 isoenzymes involved in the deamination of phenethylamine-derived designer drugs (2C-series).
Theobald DS1, Maurer HH.
Author information
1Department of Experimental and Clinical Toxicology, Institute of Experimental and Clinical Pharmacology and Toxicology, University of Saarland, D-66421 Homburg (Saar), Germany.
Abstract
In recent years, several compounds of the phenethylamine-type (2C-series) have entered the illicit drug market as designer drugs. In former studies, the qualitative metabolism of frequently abused 2Cs (2C-B, 2C-I, 2C-D, 2C-E, 2C-T-2, 2C-T-7) was studied using a rat model. Major phase I metabolic steps were deamination and O-demethylation. Deamination to the corresponding aldehyde was the reaction, which was observed for all studied compounds. Such reactions could in principal be catalyzed by two enzyme systems: monoamine oxidase (MAO) and cytochrome P450 (CYP). The aim of this study was to determine the human MAO and CYP isoenzymes involved in this major metabolic step and to measure the Michaelis-Menten kinetics of the deamination reactions. For these studies, cDNA-expressed CYPs and MAOs were used. The formation of the aldehyde metabolite was measured using GC-MS after extraction. For all compounds studied, MAO-A and MAO-B were the major enzymes involved in the deamination. For 2C-D, 2C-E, 2C-T-2 and 2C-T-7, CYP2D6 was also involved, but only to a very small extent. Because of the isoenzymes involved, the 2Cs are likely to be susceptible for drug-drug interactions with MAO inhibitors.

Actually, 2C-T-7 is a SUBSTRATE for MAO, as was shown in the paper above. The corresponding DOTs were shown to be modest MAO inhibitors with Kis around 100 uM, IIRC. I think of those that DOT-2 was the most potent, not DOT-7.

 

[InterestingFACT]

Actually, 2C-T-7 is a SUBSTRATE for MAO, as was shown in the paper above. The corresponding DOTs were shown to be modest MAO inhibitors with Kis around 100 uM, IIRC. I think of those that DOT-2 was the most potent, not DOT-7.

One must be a substrate for mao unordered to inhibit it. The paper you cited does not examine for inhibition but rather for metabolism.

The SAR for monoamine oxidase inhibition is pretty well understood. It has to do with the 4 position sulphur looking like an oxygen but acting electronic ly differently (thus preventing mao A from making a conformational change).

For what it's worth, I don't think 2ct7 has ever been examined individually for its maoi activity... But the nature of the deaths it's caused (ie. More risky via insufflation, or in combination with serotonin releasers) and its close chemical relationship to other drugs which HAVE been characterized as strong MAO inhibitors (ie. It's n-propyl cousin in the ALEPH series) means that this is not a case of safe until proven guilty.

 

[Athena777]

me and my roommates came in contact with a very large quantity of DOC last year and were dosing almost every other day, we upped periodically, the most i ever dosed was 18mg and my best friend 23mg. the duration of that trip was 36+ hrs.

 

[Xorkoth]

Holy shit, that sounds pretty reckless. 23mg of the highest dose of DOC I've heard of anyone taking that wasn't an overdose resulting in lost toes/feet and near-death. 18mg too. Be careful...

 

[pharmakos]

keep in mind that DOC tolerance builds really quickly and also goes away really quickly. you guys were only able to handle ~20mg+ because you were in the middle of a binge. if you took a couple weeks off and took 20mg again it wouldn't be pretty.

 

[lamanogaucha]

@ Athena - Such stories are probably best left for private conversation, lest an uninformed person assume that taking such amounts of DOC is fine -- it isn't. This is a harm reduction forum, after all.

 

[Athena777]

DOC is one of my favorites hands down, but its such small doses that if you spill any in lets say.... your kitchen (not saying anyone i know did this cough) then you could randomly be tripping after making a sandwich one day if you dont clean up right or at all.... also snorted is about a 6 hour high and more intense. fun fact i found out the hard way (its extremely painful)

and about the tolerance, we were fully aware, we just.... got bored alot. and had way more than we knew what to do with.

but after about 16 hours you just dont even want it anymore, usually when we grabbed the benzos

 

[Xorkoth]

DOC is one of my favorites hands down, but its such small doses that if you spill any in lets say.... your kitchen (not saying anyone i know did this cough) then you could randomly be tripping after making a sandwich one day if you dont clean up right or at all.... also snorted is about a 6 hour high and more intense. fun fact i found out the hard way (its extremely painful)

This is why extreme care needs to be taken with very potent substances such as DOC. The only proper way to dose it is if you have analytical microgram scales, or with liquid measurement (it's so easy to use liquid measurement anyway). Scales accurate just to the milligram have a margin of error, so you could be ingesting a lot more or a lot less than you intended if you try to weigh one dose. And that margin of error is larger with very low weights. What I do is weigh out 30-50mg at a time, and dissolve it in alcohol (vodka or something, or a mix of alcohol and distilled water), at 1mL for every mg of DOC. Then you can use a milligram oral syringe (free at most pharmacies if you ask) that has markings for every .1mL, which means you can dose accurate to 100micrograms (1/10 of a mg). And even if your scale said 30mg but you really had 32mg because of error, that error is divided among the whole solution so you'd still be very, very close to what you intended on dosing.

If you plan to continue using DOC, please consider using liquid measurement. And for the love of (insert deity of choice), be more careful than to allow there to be unnoticed spilled powder DOC laying around your kitchen...

If you don't have tolerance, 3-4mg of DOC is a great trip, lasts 16-20 hours, the perfect duration IMO.

 

[Athena777]

someone stole the entire 7 grams we had about a year ago, and i did knock it on the counter once, cleaned it up immediately and we had 5 different types of scales, my friend was in the middle of extracting the spirit molecule at the time so we had some pretty nice lab grade equipment. but im not sure if ill ever have another encounter with DOC, but it was sure fun while it lasted. hope the idiot that stole it isnt dead or brain-dead somewhere.

 

[InterestingFACT]

keep in mind that DOC tolerance builds really quickly and also goes away really quickly. you guys were only able to handle ~20mg+ because you were in the middle of a binge. if you took a couple weeks off and took 20mg again it wouldn't be pretty.

Tolerance to the subjective psychoactive effect =/= tolerance to its physical effects or increased rate of metabolism.

The dose they took probably wouldn't have been significantly more physically harmful had it been taken wth 0 tolerance.

Though of course it would have separated them from reality for quite some time... Which is in itself dangerous.

It's also quite possible that they were working with impure material.