The Big and Dandy Ketamine Thread (Archived start - 11-20-07)

[fastandbulbous]

I can't say I have warm fuzzy thoughts at the prospect of combining ketamine & 5-methoxy DMT, but then I don't have many positive recollections of my experiences with 5-methoxy DMT.

While ketamine is very good at abolishing fear & the ability for it to compound (say like with a psychedelic), I've had a very unpleasant experience with 5-methoxy DMT and I don't want to give it the chance of tainting my experiences with any of the psychedelics (in the broadest sense - cannabinoids, salvinorin A, ketamine etc as well as the 5HT2a agonist psychedelics) that I find useful either in the sense of self exploration or for their medicinal effects (eg. pain relief with cannabis). For some reason I've had mostly unpleasant, unhelpful experiences with the 5-methoxy substituted tryptamines, ranging from mostly physical ('opening the sluice gates at both ends' - puking & shitting myself, with 5-methoxy AMT) to the mostly psychological (intense fear from having my ego destroyed in slow motion, piece by piece with IM 5-methoxy DMT).

Ketamine & non-ring substituted tryptamines (DMT, DPT, AMT etc) have provided me with some of the most awe inspiring experiences I've ever had, it's just that pesky 5-methoxy group that I have issues with

 

[diche]

yea ket brings fear to a minimum. Such bliss. some times I feel that if I deied i wouldnt care cause Im at such peace.

that too, Ive had my most profound expeirnce with salvia, under influence of K

 

[blase deviant]

Why is it that ketamine now seems to dumb me down, and erase my memory and it turns me swimmy and such instead of giving me the razor sharp clarity it gave me before?

It seems like a totally new drug. Have I lost the magic of K?

And any K-holes I fall into inevitably end with simple ego death, and the same sort of feeling that I always get from K. It seems like the hallucinations during the K-hole are almost always similar too.

 

[redeemer]

For me, there is no sense of fear with ketamine and I think it would be a very good candidate for visionary exploration. When taking high doses of classical psychedelics I often find the emotional and entheogenic aspects quite strong and its hard to be detached and fearlessly explore my mind.

[...]

I think ketamine is more likely to induce the classic OBE's and NDE's, which I'd really like to experience. Once the fear of death is fully eliminated, whats left to be afraid of?

I think the lack of fear (or just the lack of emotions in general) associated with ketamine experiences reduces its therapeutic potential quite a bit. After all, how can you eliminate the fear of death if you've never actually confronted it? I'd think that if you were to experience an actual NDE you'd be overwhelmed by this fear that has never been present in previous experiences.

I remember my first ketamine trip (~170 mg insufflated) where my brother asked me whether an experience I was having was pleasant or unpleasant; I remember not really understanding those terms and I said it was neither, rather the experience was characterized by a total lack of both pleasantness and unpleasantness.

Nice thread BTW, I really enjoy following it .

 

[e1evene1even]

^ I agree to an extent, but its hard to say. Many people report extremely positive and fearless NDE's and those experiences in my opinion have the same potential for transformation as terrifying ones do, perhaps even more so.

I think a lot of therapeutic benefit can occur simply from the experience of being separated from the body, even if its simply an elaborate trick or neurochemistry.

Personally, I believe its important to practice death-like experiences to help prepare for the real thing.

 

[delta_9]

Is tolerance to ketamine permanent?

I know there have been plenty of ketamine tolerance threads here in the past, in fact I just spent the last half hour reading through them, but I haven't really found a definitive answer to my question...is tolerance to ketamine permanent? That's all I want to know.

 

[Jamshyd]

I find tolerance to Ketamine to work in a way very similar to opioids upon stopping... there is a quick decline of tolerance almost to the point of baseline, but it takes only a few uses to get it back where it ended.

 

[diche]

for me. doing a second time (same amount) within 3 days, does noticably less. a week is about how long I wait between doses, using the same amount.

after a month of abstenence doing a bump was like my first time

aaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh..

 

[e1evene1even]

I just tried something a little different...

I am quite curious about the concept of 'metaprogramming' with ketamine. I listened to some affirmation/mind-programming audio while tranced out on ~60mg (insufflated) ketamine.

I'm trying to use ketamine as a "Deep Relaxation Inducer (DRI), Stress Diagnostic Tool (SDT), or Internal Metaprogramming Interface (IMI)." as outlined in the James Kent article. Perhaps if ketamine is reported to cause synchronicities (meaningful coincidences), with the proper framework, this 'side-effect' can be used to create a condition of "pronoia"?

Its a little bit early to form an opinion, but my initial impression is that there is validity to this concept and that it can be quite powerful. This should NOT be taken as a recommendation though, I'm only speaking subjectively.

One of the audio files I listened to was "The Short Relax" from Jose Silva's Ultramind ESP system. The combination of the suggestions, the alpha tone and the ketamine was very powerful. In this case I believe 1+1=3 so I could probably get to the proper state in a lower dose. I also intend to create "anchors" for these states of relaxation, so there is a physical trigger that is also "wired" into the mix, hopefully making more of this mind-state accessible without ketamine.

I don't expect any immediate changes, but "neurons that fire together, wire together". Over time the connections should become stronger, like clearing a trial in the forest, making the changes more permanent. I can see a similar effect in the opposite way. Old negative habits and thought patterns are slowly fading away - the neural pathways are weakening.

Part of the trick is creating the proper script I think. By editing hypnosis/trance NLP programs I already have I should be able to create something more suitable. Normally at the end of these types of programs there is the part that brings you back to full waking consciousness, but if the ketamine is still in effect it doesn't quite work. Either the timing needs to be perfect, or that portion parsed and used at the natural end of the ketamine experience.


In this experience, I also noticed some fear for the first time with ketamine. This could be because I was a closer to a k-whole than I've previously been, or because I was trying something different.

I'm curious to know from experienced users how the lead-up to a k-hole usually is. Do you feel like you are going to die? I notice with tryptamines sometimes my mind tries to create elaborate tricks to make me think I'm dying. "I took too much", "I can't breathe", "I'm going to have a heart attack, stroke etc."

In the Jansen study, ketamine reportedly reproduced ALL of the characteristics of an NDE, so does that include the convincing feeling that you have actually died? Or does the awareness that it is caused by ketamine and there is no actual danger remain intact?


Maybe its time to get some of John Lilly's books... Unfortunately the only one I have is the one about human/dolphin communication.

Also if anyone has already been down this route with ketamine, I would be fascinated and appreciative of anything you could share...

 

[pocket393]

Perhaps if ketamine is reported to cause synchronicities (meaningful coincidences), with the proper framework, this 'side-effect' can be used to create a condition of "pronoia"?

Very interesting hypothesis, i wonder if there are any documented cases of this. If not, your working in a breakthrough field, my friend.

 

[diche]

funny you should ask...
My most recent k-hole I expeienced I had also ingested a considderable amount of MDMA.

I'd say there is no boundry between fucked-up and k-holed.rather the mind lets go, some sort of transformation with no middle position. its either on or off.

I k-holed in my room, in complete darkness and complete silence. This is where I thought I could enter my unconcious, at the time I was 'out of body'. I felt like there were parts of my brain/thoughts/processes that had a "lets not go there" feeling to them but I continued to delve. Weird tinglings in my brain were accompanied by buzzes, hums, ands colourful CEV resembling a god machine.

Although I noticed no noticeable change in myself, I believe that indeed I altered some structure/thought process within myself. For better or worse.

 

[psood0nym]

I just tried something a little different...

I am quite curious about the concept of 'metaprogramming' with ketamine. I listened to some affirmation/mind-programming audio while tranced out on ~60mg (insufflated) ketamine.

I'm trying to use ketamine as a "Deep Relaxation Inducer (DRI), Stress Diagnostic Tool (SDT), or Internal Metaprogramming Interface (IMI)." as outlined in the James Kent article. Perhaps if ketamine is reported to cause synchronicities (meaningful coincidences), with the proper framework, this 'side-effect' can be used to create a condition of "pronoia"?

Its a little bit early to form an opinion, but my initial impression is that there is validity to this concept and that it can be quite powerful. This should NOT be taken as a recommendation though, I'm only speaking subjectively.

One of the audio files I listened to was "The Short Relax" from Jose Silva's Ultramind ESP system. The combination of the suggestions, the alpha tone and the ketamine was very powerful. In this case I believe 1+1=3 so I could probably get to the proper state in a lower dose. I also intend to create "anchors" for these states of relaxation, so there is a physical trigger that is also "wired" into the mix, hopefully making more of this mind-state accessible without ketamine.

I don't expect any immediate changes, but "neurons that fire together, wire together". Over time the connections should become stronger, like clearing a trial in the forest, making the changes more permanent. I can see a similar effect in the opposite way. Old negative habits and thought patterns are slowly fading away - the neural pathways are weakening.

Part of the trick is creating the proper script I think. By editing hypnosis/trance NLP programs I already have I should be able to create something more suitable. Normally at the end of these types of programs there is the part that brings you back to full waking consciousness, but if the ketamine is still in effect it doesn't quite work. Either the timing needs to be perfect, or that portion parsed and used at the natural end of the ketamine experience.


In this experience, I also noticed some fear for the first time with ketamine. This could be because I was a closer to a k-whole than I've previously been, or because I was trying something different.

I'm curious to know from experienced users how the lead-up to a k-hole usually is. Do you feel like you are going to die? I notice with tryptamines sometimes my mind tries to create elaborate tricks to make me think I'm dying. "I took too much", "I can't breathe", "I'm going to have a heart attack, stroke etc."

In the Jansen study, ketamine reportedly reproduced ALL of the characteristics of an NDE, so does that include the convincing feeling that you have actually died? Or does the awareness that it is caused by ketamine and there is no actual danger remain intact?


Maybe its time to get some of John Lilly's books... Unfortunately the only one I have is the one about human/dolphin communication.

Also if anyone has already been down this route with ketamine, I would be fascinated and appreciative of anything you could share...

While not necessarily a fatal objection, the ostensible problem with this that occurs to me immediately is that ketamine is an NMDA antagonist and NMDA is thought to play a fundamental role in neuroplasticity by opening Na and Ca+2 ion channels to create action potentials. The very same quality of K that blocks signals from your body to your brain will probably impact the conditioning of the desired neural pathways negatively. It's unfortunate too, by cutting off all that interference from your body in some ways you acquire unparalleled resources for navigating the mind. Ironically you're in the perfect subjective position for metaprogramming but lack the raw physiological potential to do anything about it. However, you might be able to use ketamine to disrupt reoccurring negative thoughts and keep them from becoming obsessions, if such things are a problem that is. That's pure speculation though. What we need is a somatic cell gene therapy technique that causes proliferation of the NR2B receptor ala Tsien's "Doogie Mice", but doesn't result in widespread apoptosis via excitotoxicity. If you're still interested in self-directed neuroplasticity, I think Jeffrey M. Swartz and Richard Davidson are doing some of the most important work in this area today.

 

[Santiagod]

I've been recently introduced to K, and I have a few questions.


I understand that alcohol and K should never mix, I learned this first hand when my sensei almost died in the toilet while he puked for hours.
Anyways, I live 2 differnet lives, on the weekends I travel to the town where I grew up. My friends here in the city are pretty free spirited people and are no strangers to drugs, but the friends I meet on the weekends are hard drinking jocks that I know from High School. I know this weekend Im headed there, and I am completely sure a beer pong tournament will ensue, and hard liquor will be no stranger to my system. No alcohol is out of the question.

How long should a person wait to take K after drinking... say 1 beer? (we'll use this as the unit of measurement and then I'll multiply the number of beers with time).

How long should a person wait after taking K before starting to drink alcohol?

And lastly, what effects does smoking Cannabis have while high on K? does it intensify the K? lower the effects?, or just add that drowsy pot effect to the K trip?


Considering this : 200 punds, 5'6 male, aiming for about 100-120mg insufflated

 

[Santiagod]

^Saying "no alcohol is out of the question" is complete nonsense. If you don't want to drink then don't drink, it's that simple. No one's forcing you to drink. Show some self control

lol, I think you misunderstood me: I want to drink. I have a lot of fun playing beer pong, its just that I want to take a couple of bumps. Some of my friends are curious to take a couple with me, but I want to make sure we dont get sick. Thats why I ask these questions. the problem is that they will choose alcohol over the k, and Im wondering if its possible to orchestrate a moment in which we can all take some and then resume drinking.

 

[SpellmanT7]

I just tried something a little different...

I am quite curious about the concept of 'metaprogramming' with ketamine. I listened to some affirmation/mind-programming audio while tranced out on ~60mg (insufflated) ketamine.

I'm trying to use ketamine as a "Deep Relaxation Inducer (DRI)

I think there is a lot of potential in the use of ketamine for such a purpose.

IME, ketamine mimics REM sleep in many ways yet allows for greater interactivity. I can see that low doses could improve access to parts of the brain normally inaccessible - let us know how you fare with your experimentation as I have personally contemplated whether ketamine could be used to learn the equivalent of several months study in a matter of hours - no qualititive evidence, just a niggling feeling. In particular, I would hazard a guess that ketamine could improve the ability to learn new languages in a fraction of the normal time...how? I wish I knew

 

[delta_9]

lol, I think you misunderstood me: I want to drink. I have a lot of fun playing beer pong, its just that I want to take a couple of bumps. Some of my friends are curious to take a couple with me, but I want to make sure we dont get sick. Thats why I ask these questions. the problem is that they will choose alcohol over the k, and Im wondering if its possible to orchestrate a moment in which we can all take some and then resume drinking.

Oops, my mistake, I just re-read my post...sorry. But my point remains valid, you don't HAVE to drink. If you don't think it's safe then don't do it.

 

[e1evene1even]

psood0nym, thanks for the reply. And yes, "self-directed neuroplasticity" is a topic of great interest to me. I'll google the names you mention, if you have any specific links bookmarked, feel free to pass them on.

SpellmanT7, I notice the same thing. Ketamine appears to increase theta waves which are correlated with REM sleep. The potential to reliably induce lucid dreams is fascinating.

About using ketamine for learning acceleration, it's worth a shot. I have a book called "LSD" (edited by David Solomon) that documents a similar phenomenon. If the learning is auditory based, it might have a greater chance at success asI don't think it would be very easy to read while under the influence of ketamine.

Over the last few hours I have noticed that this constant tension I usually experience in my frontal lobe/forehead area has been noticeably reduced.

I'll probably do another experiment in 3-7 days (my minimum time between ketamine doses), in the meantime I'm going to edit together a trance script. I have some programs designed for sleep programming by Dick Sutphen which I think could be effective as they they don't attempt to bring you back to waking consciousness at the end of the program. I'll just remove the portion at the start which attempts to induce sleep, and remove the references to sleeping within the program. I'll also remove the ending of the Silva exercise as I really like the concept behind that program, and the gentle tapping of the alpha sound increases alpha waves helping to create a bridge between the subconscious/unconscious theta waves and relaxed waking awareness.

 

[diche]

lol, I think you misunderstood me: I want to drink. I have a lot of fun playing beer pong, its just that I want to take a couple of bumps. Some of my friends are curious to take a couple with me, but I want to make sure we dont get sick. Thats why I ask these questions. the problem is that they will choose alcohol over the k, and Im wondering if its possible to orchestrate a moment in which we can all take some and then resume drinking.

buddy of mine, casual drinker, had two beers within a half hour. did bout 150mg nasally and didnt remember the rest of the night. He left early saying he was going home. he woke up the next morning outside his doorstep curled in a ball, with a random pack of smokes that wasnt his and a garden knome

I'd say do the k first,

 

[Bercilak]

In this experience, I also noticed some fear for the first time with ketamine. This could be because I was a closer to a k-whole than I've previously been, or because I was trying something different.

I'm curious to know from experienced users how the lead-up to a k-hole usually is. Do you feel like you are going to die? I notice with tryptamines sometimes my mind tries to create elaborate tricks to make me think I'm dying. "I took too much", "I can't breathe", "I'm going to have a heart attack, stroke etc."

In the Jansen study, ketamine reportedly reproduced ALL of the characteristics of an NDE, so does that include the convincing feeling that you have actually died? Or does the awareness that it is caused by ketamine and there is no actual danger remain intact?

I think that the lead-up probably varies from person to person, depending on their inclination towards dissociatives. I love 'em for how delightfully bent my consiousness gets. When I k-hole, I tend to rack up about 200 mg in 6 lines and do a line every 2-3 min so I can titrate myself into the k-hole. As I begin to approach it, I tend to get heavy OEVs, and thoughts just seem to make a lot less sense. "Up, down, me? What the fuck?" I definitely get dissociation/depersonalization, but I very much like it. It feels delightfully objective to me. Once I hit that point where I'm unable to figure out how to do a line, I lie back and just fall into ketamine consiousness.

That being said, if you have worries about death on tryptamines as well, then it's probably something you'll have to personally work through on both. If you're even comfortable doing ketamine again, that's a great start. Take precautions beforehand (measure thrice, dose once :D) and you can, with assurance, tell yourself that you'll be just fine.

With respect to NDEs, I personally do not experience anything that feels like death, rather the concept of "I" just dissolves. My ego goes "poof!" I'm a consiousness without an "I", a genuinely disinterested and objective observer of the universe and my human consiousness. I can see how others could interpret the sensation as being like death. Ego loss is a profoundly jarring thing, and when it happens with classic psychedelics, it's not suprising that often occurs in the context of a death-rebirth experience.

 

[diche]

what about any OBE's?