Film The Avengers

[axl blaze]

^ Hank Pym sucks. Why It Sucks to be Ant-Man aka "the Forgotten Avenger". seriously you two - how many Ant-Man comics do you own? because I bet I own more than you both combined, and I dislike the character

Loki was one of the first Avengers villains of all-time. also, HYDRA are kind of involved, but it's mostly an Army of the Chitauri...

and MODOK? man... I hope I don't have to step away from this thread, of all threads

you are tripping if you think this guy would have gone over well as THE FIRST Avengers nemesis, on the silver screen

well I'm just glad BL'S F+T is not a microcosm of the real world. the Avengers movie has Hulk-Smashed Harry Potter, when comparing opening weekend merits:

the film grossed more than $207 million domestically this weekend, blasting away the "Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows, Part 2" record of $169 million. The film now also holds the #1 spot for highest Saturday gross of all time with a whopping $69.7 million made in a single day

 

[L2R]

fuckin hell, not another marisssaa whinge-fest thread.

zomg, the shape of the hulks arse is completely wrongcorez faaaarrrk i waannaa kill someone over this.,.... rar.. (here's hoping my knowledged of pop culture detail will give me some kind of sense of superiority, ... rar)


i've got most of these main characters tattooed on my back, and i couldn't give a fuck about how they adapt it as long as the film works. stupid, petty shit to be buttsore about.

 

[MrGrunge]

The best part of this movie was the Dark Knight Rises trailer.

 

[hiphophippy]

^ Hank Pym sucks. Why It Sucks to be Ant-Man aka "the Forgotten Avenger". seriously you two - how many Ant-Man comics do you own? because I bet I own more than you both combined, and I dislike the character

Loki was one of the first Avengers villains of all-time. also, HYDRA are kind of involved, but it's mostly an Army of the Chitauri...

and MODOK? man... I hope I don't have to step away from this thread, of all threads


you are tripping if you think this guy would have gone over well as THE FIRST Avengers nemesis, on the silver screen

well I'm just glad BL'S F+T is not a microcosm of the real world. the Avengers movie has Hulk-Smashed Harry Potter, when comparing opening weekend merits:

Hank and the Black Panther are the best avengers. I disagree with everything Hank stands for but he's the only one who really thinks abut what they are doing. And well the black panther can kick all the avengers asses sans hulk.

Loki is a joke in the marvel universe. He's always someone else's bitch. He's more of a joke than modok that was my point. Also me and M have a lot to bitch about. for the majority of it's history Marvel comics have always had an embedded culture between the lines. The ulterior messages for the people who actually read into the comics and the culture. That challenged the reader to decide what really constitutes a hero and a villain and what really is right or wrong.
Iron man's has been whether technology really is the answer to the worlds problems, captain america's has been the ethics of enhancement as well as things like patriotism and loyalty. (and a shit ton of other things) hulks the classic anti-hero dilemma, and then there is thor, who's greatest philosophical dilemma has probably been deciding weather he decides if he is going to be a pissy little emo bitch or a self-righteous douche on any particular day.
That's what the comics used to be and for the most part still are.

Other comics were just blatant [philosophical] statements X-Men, Luke Cage ect. How ever the movie verse is content to just strip off the depth of these characters because they have to be "actiony" the best one was probably X1 but after that they just decided to fuck it and take it away to.

So to people who are actually fans of the comics and the characters it is a great insult. All the movies are are shallow pans of the characters. Especially as they are people that we look up to it is insulting because they strip away the cores of our heros and portray them as roid raging fucktards that can't tell their left from their right.




[side note this extends to DC: ever seen the watchmen?]

 

[panic in paradise]

the mythology of SUPERMAN and SUPERWOMEN too.
^is quite moving...

 

[hiphophippy]

superman is bullshit. he just god modes everything.

 

[panic in paradise]

^nooo!

superman is your humble servant...



Edit:
The Mythology of Superman (2 of 2)

 

[marissaaaaaa]

okay so Captain America appeared as an official Avengers in the Avengers #4, not Avengers #1

so Captain America wasn't an Avenger for the first three months of their history. are you really that mad about it? I didn't know you were this much into comics (or are you mad because of my quick jab at Harry Potter fans? )

and yeah, new stuff is lamesauce, but the Ultimates line was a runaway success. and this isn't a TV show or a movie here - this is comics. you know how so hard to please some certain fan boys are. if they did it right and got a great critical response in the comics, then they did something right


oh wow, so you are talking about the Ultron story-line of Vision and that whole Oedipus Conflict he felt over his "dad" (Hank Pym aka Ant-Man) and his wife (or "mom") the Wasp? or are you talking about Scarlet Witch + Vision + Ultron, where the Ultron were an army of robo-soldiers created by Ant-Man, but due to a chance encounter with the Scarlet Witch, the Ultron become violently self aware?

if you are referencing the latter, that happened in the Ultimate Marvel Universe



as always, I agree with Freddy...

however, I am mad impressed with your comic book knowledge. you really like this stuff, huh? I never knew. that's awesome

captain america i'm whatever about.
but what bothers me the most is black widow. making her a founding woman when she's not...not even close...and she sucks. she has no powers and all she does is where a tight stupid leather outfit and do backflips and shoot. WOWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW.
when for instance, scarlet witch is way more epic...who has a much more developed character, powers, back-story, and run within the marvel universe.
black widow is stupid. and i hate scarlett johanson also.

i would've been okay with other women being presented as founders such as; wasp, scarlet witch, ms marvel, hell even hellcat was much cooler. idk man.
and because of that, as a woman that they chose to go for just some hot ruski in leather just irks me.
because they could've done so much more.
there's no women superheroes.
avengers changed that.
and for this movie they could've done a lot.
and they chose to pick a lame female character with zero powers and stick scarjo in a leather suit to hop around and give captain america and everyone else "gang bang me" eyes.

AND THAT'S MY ISSUE.
IT MAKES NO SENSE EXCEPT FOR SEXUALIZATION. it makes no sense to the comics, no sense to appeal...nothing. the other females i listed can be made just as appealing, but they would require effort. effort on story-telling, effort on effects, effort on costumes...which the companies weren't willing to make on a female superhero.

every goddamn superhero that fanboys like they get to see. EVERY SINGLE ONE.
can't they throw the fangirls a bone??

and no. i'm talking about the good ol scarlet+vision shit.
none of that ultimates crap.

i would mostly only get avengers comics with female characters i admired.
and that mostly limited me to only the ones with scarlet witch, hellcat, and ms marvel.
(i also liked fantastic 4 a lot but don't get me started on that clusterfuck of a movie) (and spiderman also.)

fuckin hell, not another marisssaa whinge-fest thread.

zomg, the shape of the hulks arse is completely wrongcorez faaaarrrk i waannaa kill someone over this.,.... rar.. (here's hoping my knowledged of pop culture detail will give me some kind of sense of superiority, ... rar)


i've got most of these main characters tattooed on my back, and i couldn't give a fuck about how they adapt it as long as the film works. stupid, petty shit to be buttsore about.

actually, it's not stupid petty shit.
when there's only a handful of female superheroes and hollywood chooses a shit one, that's something to be upset over...

Hank and the Black Panther are the best avengers. I disagree with everything Hank stands for but he's the only one who really thinks abut what they are doing. And well the black panther can kick all the avengers asses sans hulk.

Iron man's has been whether technology really is the answer to the worlds problems, captain america's has been the ethics of enhancement as well as things like patriotism and loyalty. (and a shit ton of other things) hulks the classic anti-hero dilemma, and then there is thor, who's greatest philosophical dilemma has probably been deciding weather he decides if he is going to be a pissy little emo bitch or a self-righteous douche on any particular day.
That's what the comics used to be and for the most part still are.

Other comics were just blatant [philosophical] statements X-Men, Luke Cage ect. How ever the movie verse is content to just strip off the depth of these characters because they have to be "actiony" the best one was probably X1 but after that they just decided to fuck it and take it away to.

So to people who are actually fans of the comics and the characters it is a great insult. All the movies are are shallow pans of the characters. Especially as they are people that we look up to it is insulting because they strip away the cores of our heros and portray them as roid raging fucktards that can't tell their left from their right.

yeah. thor, captain america and iron man ALWAYS irritated me in the comics. like a lot. i always liked ant-man...BLACK PANTHER 33
i love me some beast too.
i'm cheesed he won't probably crossover

yeah xmen was shit after the first one.
fucking ballsacks.
ugh.
this thread is actually seriously irritating me lmao.

 

[L2R]

Hank and the Black Panther are the best avengers. I disagree with everything Hank stands for but he's the only one who really thinks abut what they are doing. And well the black panther can kick all the avengers asses sans hulk.

Loki is a joke in the marvel universe. He's always someone else's bitch. He's more of a joke than modok that was my point. Also me and M have a lot to bitch about. for the majority of it's history Marvel comics have always had an embedded culture between the lines. The ulterior messages for the people who actually read into the comics and the culture. That challenged the reader to decide what really constitutes a hero and a villain and what really is right or wrong.
Iron man's has been whether technology really is the answer to the worlds problems, captain america's has been the ethics of enhancement as well as things like patriotism and loyalty. (and a shit ton of other things) hulks the classic anti-hero dilemma, and then there is thor, who's greatest philosophical dilemma has probably been deciding weather he decides if he is going to be a pissy little emo bitch or a self-righteous douche on any particular day.
That's what the comics used to be and for the most part still are.

Other comics were just blatant [philosophical] statements X-Men, Luke Cage ect. How ever the movie verse is content to just strip off the depth of these characters because they have to be "actiony" the best one was probably X1 but after that they just decided to fuck it and take it away to.

So to people who are actually fans of the comics and the characters it is a great insult. All the movies are are shallow pans of the characters. Especially as they are people that we look up to it is insulting because they strip away the cores of our heros and portray them as roid raging fucktards that can't tell their left from their right.




[side note this extends to DC: ever seen the watchmen?]

two things:

1- watchmen is word for word, frame for frame identical to the limited series.

2- for all ongoing comic book series being adapted into film, you are inevitably going to come to one problem. they make these things every two to three years. each film is 90-120 minutes. that is not much screen time to get in full story arcs and elaborate on the more subtle and ultimately secondary values and traits to their primary roles as "superheroes" or "crime fighters" or whatever.

 

[hiphophippy]

two things:

1- watchmen is word for word, frame for frame identical to the limited series.

2- for all ongoing comic book series being adapted into film, you are inevitably going to come to one problem. they make these things every two to three years. each film is 90-120 minutes. that is not much screen time to get in full story arcs and elaborate on the more subtle and ultimately secondary values and traits to their primary roles as "superheroes" or "crime fighters" or whatever.

Bullshit

I've seen small budget indy movies written by amateurs, directed by amateurs on budgets smaller than a weeks worth of groceries in china that have conveyed multiple characters better than movies that are considered epitomes of cinema. In shorter periods of time.

or consider the Pirates of the Caribbean: curse of the black pearl. One had a strong sense of the content of the characters by the end of that movie.
Big lebowski
Fight club
eternal sunshine of the spotless mind ect.
and those are not very good either.

the only character they have right is thor and that is because he is a shallow douche.

 

[MrGrunge]

1- watchmen is word for word, frame for frame identical to the limited series.

Did you watch the same movie I did? I seem to remember there not being a giant, slimy space octopus in the movie. Other than that though it felt pretty faithful.

And let's be honest, these Marvel films aren't suffering by time limitations - You can create a fully-fleshed, believable, sympathetic character in 90-120 minutes. The problem with these movies is that they're designed to sell tickets to general audiences. The screenwriter isn't concerned with maintaining the integrity of whatever character or story he's trying to adapt, he's mostly concerned with including enough snappy one-liners, explosions, and space for product placement so that his Hollywood overlords don't fire him. Exploring the subtlties of a character are secondary to their status as "SUPER-POWERED AWESOME EXPLOSION AND QUIP MACHINE" because that's what fills the seats. I don't like Marvel comics in general, but in the hands of a capable writer and director who are willing to take creative risks, there's more than enough source material to make some really great pieces of cinema - studios just aren't willing to take risks on a multimillion dollar investment.

 

[freddy47]

Bullshit

I've seen small budget indy movies written by amateurs, directed by amateurs on budgets smaller than a weeks worth of groceries in china that have conveyed multiple characters better than movies that are considered epitomes of cinema. In shorter periods of time.

Could you provide a few examples? I would really like to know because well I would like to see these hidden gems if they exist.

or consider the Pirates of the Caribbean: curse of the black pearl. One had a strong sense of the content of the characters by the end of that movie.
Big lebowski
Fight club
eternal sunshine of the spotless mind ect.

First off none of those movies are comic book adaptations which is what I think L2R was talking about. Second Curse of the Black Pearl was damn near incoherent IMO.

Lastly

and those are not very good either.

With the exception of the Pirates movie those are all pretty damn good movies IMO.

The problem with these movies is that they're designed to sell tickets to general audiences.

Yes and so is pretty much every other movie. Movies are a huge investment. If studios don't think a film will make money they won't invest for obvious reasons.

The screenwriter isn't concerned with maintaining the integrity of whatever character or story he's trying to adapt, he's mostly concerned with including enough snappy one-liners, explosions, and space for product placement so that his Hollywood overlords don't fire him. Exploring the subtlties of a character are secondary to their status as "SUPER-POWERED AWESOME EXPLOSION AND QUIP MACHINE" because that's what fills the seats.

Well yeah that is what most summer movie goers want. Let us face the reality of the situation shall we. If you put all the comic book fanboys into one room and have them all buy one ticket, you'd still fall short of making back your investment. Because in the end the comic book reading community is a relatively small niche. This movie wasn't made specifically with the comic book fans in mind, if they wanted to do that the movie would have been a TV movie or straight to DVD affair, kind of like the one Axl posted with Hasselhoff as Fury.

 

[MrGrunge]

Well yeah that is what most summer movie goers want. Let us face the reality of the situation shall we. If you put all the comic book fanboys into one room and have them all buy one ticket, you'd still fall short of making back your investment. Because in the end the comic book reading community is a relatively small niche. This movie wasn't made specifically with the comic book fans in mind, if they wanted to do that the movie would have been a TV movie or straight to DVD affair, kind of like the one Axl posted with Hasselhoff as Fury.

Comic book fans aren't the only people who want a higher standard of quality from Hollywood films. Obviously Paramount is a business and its their duty to their stockholders to maximize profit, but let's not pretend that these films are anything but slack-jawed droolfests.

 

[freddy47]

Comic book fans aren't the only people who want a higher standard of quality from Hollywood films.

True but I thought this debate was mainly about comic book adaptations and angry fanboys/girls. My main point was that there will always be upset comic book fans whenever a movie like this is made. It is just impossible to appease them all and still make an entertaining and successful movie.

Obviously Paramount is a business and its their duty to their stockholders to maximize profit, but let's not pretend that these films are anything but slack-jawed droolfests.

Honestly I went into this movie with this same attitude. I expected to leave the cinema disappointed and bored. But I wasn't. Speaking as a person who is completely ignorant of the Avengers comics I thought it was a really well done and entertaining movie. I wasn't all that confused not knowing the backgrounds of the characters, and I felt like the characters were well developed.

It (for the most part) achieved it's goals. And those are selling plenty of tickets to general audiences not interested in the comics AND not completely alienating (again for the most part) the hardcore Avengers fans. Also IMO most importantly it entertained which I think is the most important thing.

 

[hiphophippy]

Could you provide a few examples? I would really like to know because well I would like to see these hidden gems if they exist.

The Bridge;
poetry;
pi;(well maybe not a pinicale of character development, but a good movie thta was made by an amaeture(black swan))

Also I meant little mis sunshine I don't know why I alaways confuse it with eternal sunshine fo the spotless mind.

My point being that they can produce more quality films with just a little more effort.

 

[axl blaze]

Watchmen was frame-for-frame, besides the ending as mentioned above

and marissaaa and hiphophippy, I see your points. I'll be honest, at first I thought I was just debating with people who had no idea about comics, but you've both shown me that I was wrong and you know some of your shit. fucking awesome, ya'll

marissaa: I just read this BAD ASS interview with Writer/Director Joss Whedon and mostly Scarlett Johannesan (sp?). the other Avengers stars were there, but it was mostly them two. Joss + Scarlett were both cock-teasing the interviewer with speculations about Avengers 2. surprisingly, I was most impressed with Scarlett in the interview, as it was essentially her and Joss making fun of female super-hero movies of the past *cough* *cough* Catwoman *cough* then both Joss + Scarlet hinted towards having some more female Avengers in the next movie!

I feel as if the first choice, rightfully so, should go to the Wasp. and then you guys are right - can they do the Wasp without Hank Pym? the answer is hell-to-the-no. however! I was just reminded that there will be an Ant-Man movie with Hank Pym! it's been in the works for a looooong time, and I have some faith in it because the writer is a guy who wrote Adventurs of Tin-Tin (lol) and Attack of the Block! (fucking righteous movie, but I doubt you all saw it) - and the director is Edgar Wright, the director of Shaun of the Dead/Hot Fuzz/Spaced/Scott Pilgrim VS the World! Stan Lee saw the script and met with the director and tweeted that he thinks the movie will be teh awesome, True Believers!!

here is the cover to my favorite Ant-Man comic!!

 

[Raz]

For what it's worth, before I actually saw the movie I thought Black Widow was a WTF choice as well. I like her fine as a character, but she has very rarely if ever really fit the Avengers mold in the comic-verse. And I am a HUGE fan of Hank & Jan (the Wasp is one of my favourite Avengers ever period), so was very disappointed that they weren't going to be in the film in some capacity.

It makes perfect sense in the context of the film though. The movie-verse Avengers are similar to the Ultimates in a lot of ways, and someone like Natasha is a way better fit in that environment than someone like Jan or Wanda. In the movie, she leaves no doubt whatsoever that she is on par with the rest of this team, and for everyone whose complaint is "she does backflips and shoots things", wtf do Hawkeye and Cap do that's functionally different??

As much as I would love Hank and Jan to be in the next Avengers movie (and I DO hope they appear in some way), I can recognise the limitations in including them as a major part of the team. It will take a very talented writer, director AND actors to give them the presence that the Widow and Hawkeye have alongside people like Thor and the Hulk.

I would also really like to see Wanda and the Vision, though I think it's gonna be very difficult to include Wanda or Pietro in any Avengers films without making direct reference to Magneto...and without that reference, you kind of lose the point of why they're such important characters.

Monica Rambeau and She-Hulk are two other characters I would really like to see in an Avengers movie, though I think there's as much chance of that happening as me appearing in an Avengers movie.

Characters I personally am not HUGE fans of necessarily, but who I think could really work well in the movie-verse: Carol Danvers, Falcon and Black Panther

 

[axl blaze]

sup Raz? long time. yeah I want to stress that this Avengers movie is more Ultimates than the Avengers. which ain't a bad thing, because I always thought that the Ultimates stories > the Avengers stories. Black Widow + Hawkeye more as the two ass-kicking assassins made total and perfect sense for this post-9/11 World we all live in

and all this talk about female superheroes and no mention of SHIELD Agent: Maria Hill in this movie?

played by one of the saving graces of that gawd-awful show How I Met Your Mother, I thought Cobie Smulders:

Maria Hill is an under-repped figure in the Avengers/Ultimates Universe, but she is a cornerstone and did well. also SHIELD Agent Robert Coulson played by Clark Gregg, a role that wasn't expounded upon much in the comics, brought a very well-acted, human touch to a movie about those with God-like powers in tights:

once again, Joss Whedon's script was so fucking righteous. and he didn't do a bad job at all concerning directing the film. a couple of his shots I did an "ooh" and "ahh"!!

I've always been a huge fan of the Black Panther. it would be kewl for the next movie to say have a cameo appearance by Black Panther, maybe SHIELD flies the Avengers out to Wakanda (the Heart of Africa, where BP rules) and have an epic fight scene there!

I think it would be good ideas for Marvel to include some cameos via Spider-Man and Wolverine. these are two fan-favorites and two characters that have ALWAYS found their way, somehow, in the line-up of the Avengers... however, I think FOX owns the rights to all X-Men characters on the silver screen. so I'm thinking the chances of us True Believers seeing Wolvie/Scarlet Witch, etc are slim to none

I can't wait for this hellish weekend of work to be over so I can go to the movies and see Avengers again!!! excelsior!!

 

[L2R]

Bullshit

I've seen small budget indy movies written by amateurs, directed by amateurs on budgets smaller than a weeks worth of groceries in china that have conveyed multiple characters better than movies that are considered epitomes of cinema. In shorter periods of time.

or consider the Pirates of the Caribbean: curse of the black pearl. One had a strong sense of the content of the characters by the end of that movie.
Big lebowski
Fight club
eternal sunshine of the spotless mind ect.
and those are not very good either.

the only character they have right is thor and that is because he is a shallow douche.

They can but they won't. When they market these films, they do so to the lowest common denominator. Like grunge said here...

And let's be honest, these Marvel films aren't suffering by time limitations - You can create a fully-fleshed, believable, sympathetic character in 90-120 minutes. The problem with these movies is that they're designed to sell tickets to general audiences. The screenwriter isn't concerned with maintaining the integrity of whatever character or story he's trying to adapt, he's mostly concerned with including enough snappy one-liners, explosions, and space for product placement so that his Hollywood overlords don't fire him. Exploring the subtlties of a character are secondary to their status as "SUPER-POWERED AWESOME EXPLOSION AND QUIP MACHINE" because that's what fills the seats. I don't like Marvel comics in general, but in the hands of a capable writer and director who are willing to take creative risks, there's more than enough source material to make some really great pieces of cinema - studios just aren't willing to take risks on a multimillion dollar investment.

they're making a fucktonne of money, so the formula is working.

Did you watch the same movie I did? I seem to remember there not being a giant, slimy space octopus in the movie. Other than that though it felt pretty faithful.

well obviously. but that one change is effectively the same story..

 

[Raz]

I'm glad you brought up Maria Hill, axl! I totally forgot about her....really actively dislike her character in the comics, but she was pretty freakin' sweet in the movie. That Cobie Smulders could actually make a pretty awesome Wonder Woman based on her performance here I think.

(personally, I still would have preferred it was Sharon Carter or the Contessa but ennh what are ya gonna do)

I'm kind of glad that it would be super difficult to put Spider-Man and Wolverine in the Avengers movies tbh....while Spidey does actually make a good Avenger, I think it hurts him as a character. It's hard to see him as hard on his luck Peter Parker when he's pals with the world's greatest heroes.

Wolverine I have NEVER liked as an Avenger...I like him as a character, he's fine in the X-Men, but he's such a horrible fit as an Avenger I don't even know where to start.

More to the point though, both these characters already have more exposure than any superhero this side of Batman, and there are dozens upon dozens of underexposed Avengers characters begging to be used who deserve a spot more than they do.