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Bupe Suboxone/Buprenorphine FAQ and Megathread v.1; 2007 - 2010

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How is it inaccurate to compare ORT to addiction?

Without buprenorphine I go through withdrawal, and I end up feeling a lot like I do without heroin. The only difference is buprenorphine is legal and heroin isn't.

A lot of anecdotal evidence on this forum leads me to believe that coming off of methadone is actually worse than heroin, so how is that not comparable to addiction?

"Opioid dependent pain patients" that isn't anything like addiction? If they suddenly run out of their medication they'll be OK because they aren't addicted?

I certainly agree with you that maintenance therapy is a large step above actively using. I know that pretty well. However, it's hard to believe that using methadone and then consequentially withdrawing from it is nothing like addiction.

I mean, people find drugs like benzodiazepines addictive. Some people claim to be addicted to loperamide, or diphenhydramine.

How can you say BMT and MMT cannot be compared with addiction?

"Dependence" and "Addiction" are two separate things, the first implies a physical dependency, and the latter implies a psychological and physical dependency which is clearly different from just dependency.

But I assure you that both are comparable.
 
^^^agreed big time, methadone wd is worse than heroin in many ways, depending on preference bupe can be too.

This is not the first time I heard of "the perfect taper" that results in no withdrawls (none that OTC meds can't fix) I am about at that point in my life too, however I need to stockpile for hose weak days.
good luck OP, PM me if you couldtell me your taper. I want to b able to hold a job through this and have most meds that help you feel better.
 
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Captain.Heroin said:
How is it inaccurate to compare ORT to addiction?

Without buprenorphine I go through withdrawal, and I end up feeling a lot like I do without heroin. The only difference is buprenorphine is legal and heroin isn't.

A lot of anecdotal evidence on this forum leads me to believe that coming off of methadone is actually worse than heroin, so how is that not comparable to addiction?

"Opioid dependent pain patients" that isn't anything like addiction? If they suddenly run out of their medication they'll be OK because they aren't addicted?

I certainly agree with you that maintenance therapy is a large step above actively using. I know that pretty well. However, it's hard to believe that using methadone and then consequentially withdrawing from it is nothing like addiction.

I mean, people find drugs like benzodiazepines addictive. Some people claim to be addicted to loperamide, or diphenhydramine.

How can you say BMT and MMT cannot be compared with addiction?

"Dependence" and "Addiction" are two separate things, the first implies a physical dependency, and the latter implies a psychological and physical dependency which is clearly different from just dependency.

But I assure you that both are comparable.
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Without the compulsive use, dysfunctioning Dopamine reward system, and morbid seeking, MMT/BMT hardly acts like addiction.

It is innaccurate to equate physical dependancy with addiction. Pain patients who take their medication as prescribed do not experience the morbid craving, compulsive use, etc that Heroin addicts or illicit Oxycodone/Fentanyl/etc addicts do. Studies have confirmed this. One of the better ways I've seen this explained was an e-mail from NAABT, IV Buprenex vs sublingual Suboxone/Subutex:

I disagree with your premises that the sublingual formulation of buprenorphine is only harm reduction, although I agree that the injectable formulation would be. Patients taking sublingual buprenorphine are able to stop their addictive behavior (not continue it with a safer legal medication) Once stable, the dangerous compulsion to take drugs is gone, patients regain control over drug use, missed days at work decrease, spread of HIV -HEP-C decrease, virtually all of the hallmarks of addiction disappear. This drastic change in behavior has a physical affect on the brain and actually allows a “rewiring”, reversing some of the changes caused by addiction. With successful behavior modification during the treatment period most patients will be able to make sufficient brain adaptations to transition off the medication and keep the addiction in remission with cognitive tools only. This is not a solely a harm reduction strategy, it is effective treatment.
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Tchort said:
Without the compulsive use, dysfunctioning Dopamine reward system, and morbid seeking, MMT/BMT hardly acts like addiction.

It is innaccurate to equate physical dependancy with addiction. Pain patients who take their medication as prescribed do not experience the morbid craving, compulsive use, etc that Heroin addicts or illicit Oxycodone/Fentanyl/etc addicts do. Studies have confirmed this. One of the better ways I've seen this explained was an e-mail from NAABT, IV Buprenex vs sublingual Suboxone/Subutex:
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Someone can be addicted to the medications they're being prescribed. Especially when they seek out extra when they're out before the end of the month.

That's clearly drug seeking.

What about BMT/MMT patients that take a break to use heroin or another DOC? Are they addicted once they use the heroin, but just dependent when they go back on the buprenorphine? I'm truly not believing that at all.

You could even find people who are "anxiety patients" who are severely addicted to their anxiety medications, and are in a worse situation than most heroin users are in.

It goes without saying that it's a case by case basis. Some people will find some drugs addictive, others won't.

I understand most BMT/MMT patients are not "addicted", and this is a great thing. But there are always the exceptions to the rule.

And for the record, I do not equate dependency and addiction, but this doesn't change the fact that they are comparable.
 
use psychedelics to break the mental addiction.

I was using subs and had extremely hard times getting off them - so shrooms for 3 days solid helped with the sleep and when I came back to reality I was done.

Psychedelics can do great things for addiction!
 
thanks for the responses... well to be honest, i guess the bags im doing are probably about a quarter to a third of a gram , i mean the hookup i have is definitely bigger and stronger than any other dimes ive seen around, more like a dubsack i guess. but im steady at one a day... not sure if that changes the situation. isnt that kinda more like 2-3 bags in standard terms? (ill try to weigh one out tomorrow to be more specific). not dicksizing here, just trying to make sure i go about this right.

the psychedelic idea is actually not a bad one. they've usually always left me in a really good state of mind. although last time i took acid over the winter, the comedown was softened incredibly by heroin. it was quite beautiful. shrooms are easier going though. anyways enough nonsense, i dont think im going to trip the week away instead of using this bupe. maybe ill save that trip for the depression i might have next week. it seems like it could help then.

as far as how long to wait before dosing bupe, is twelve hours enough (ya know, last bit of dope before i go to bed, and then try to wait it out till noon the next day)? or is the idea to be very uncomfortable beforehand... like wait a day being 24 hours? can i get a second opinion on the bupe dosage/shedule (no offense to ingannilo, it would just make me more comfortable to get a few more opinions from people who've been in this situation).

cheers
 
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JohnnyGoodBoy said:
When my confidence is up, I get chicks, I go out, I enjoy my own company, and generally LOVE life.
When it is down, I become my own worst enemy and even get incredibly needy.

I am a very introspective person, and I know I have some issues, and it's all one big spiderweb.

The good news is that when shit gets bad, I always make it out of the darkness. I'm a fighter.
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Work on your self confidence with your psychiatrist. Then, you should work on being more extroverted.

leftwing said:
merged johnnygoodboy's, olcapones, betterdaze posts
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PWND!!!

This should hopefully be a warning to everyone else: START POSTING IN HERE.
 
like it or not you're no exception of not having to post in the mega thread, so yes i will move it there for you with the other 4 or 5 i've already had to merge this afternoon. be patient and you'll get the responses.

meged chicagolove's thread
 
I'm sorry to create any work/hassle for anyone, having to move posts and stuff. I had posted in here waited about 5 hrs., but really needed some advice big time on sub. It seemed like many people we're active in the OD threads just not checking this one. I took a shot at starting a thread and got some advice back real quick. Again I didn't mean to create a hassle, I just couldn't wait until tomorrow.

Today being the first day in over 6 years to not take either Methadone, or Dilauded, or any other regular opiate I'm just kinda freaking out. The Sub is keeping the physical in check I guess, but I'm having a hell of a time mentally trying to wrap my head around the thought that I'm going to be ok.
 
Betterdaze said:
I just took my first 4 mgs(prob. need to take more) but it tastes like shit. It says it's lemon lime flavored, ya right. Plus my mouth was very dry.
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ingannilo said:
that didn't contribute to the thread at all &belongs in your journal.

ps- if you tasted it you wasted it.
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I'm not the type of person that has an easy time asking for help, or great skill in doing so. I should have put that into a question, because that's what I meant it as. Plus I have zero people to talk to now about any of this.

So how do I do it so as not to waste it? Is it suppose to taste bitter? I read something in here about using alcohol to break it down better. I have vodka I can use. Should I try this and how? Also some people say take it once a day, some multiple times, what is best?

Thank you
 
If you've been on dilaudid and methadone for a long time, suboxone is going to help the WD's, but not completely erase them. But, you will feel great relief once starting suboxone. It is preferable to use dilaudid before suboxone, as it has a short half life and you will soon be in WD's. You have to be WDing before you take buprenorphine, otherwise you might get precipitated WD's, which are god awful.

I would expect to feel under the weather for the first two days, but eventually you will begin to feel better with buprenorphine. You can use doxylamine succinate, diphenhydramine hcl, and any benzos you have to help the process.

Alcohol will help the buprenorphine dissolve underneath your tongue and will increase the BA. Read about this here: http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/showthread.php?t=404947

I would start at 2mg sublingually, and see how you feel. If you feel bad, you can try more, but 2mg should be a good starting point. I would take 2mg twice or three times daily as you need, and then eventually taper down.

Sorry I didn't get to your question earlier, I don't have much time at the moment.
 
Suboxane is a life save. About 6 months ago when I was detoxing from a gram of heroin a day, my friend would steal me his moms suboxanes. I'd take 8 mg a day for a month, then 6 for 3 weeks, 4 for another month, then finally once I got down too 2 I stopped and the withdrawl was way way better. The first time I went cold turkey I was on the floor shaking and sweating so badly my girl had too hold me in her arms and wipe the sweat off me and sing too me...well my old girl. She was a mazing woman, and even though we dont date anymore were stil lexcellent friends
 
Eight0Eight said:
Thats pure bullshit.

He let his own mum go without? What the fuck?
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Nah it really wasnt as bad as it sounded. She honestly hasnt used them in a good 6 months. I mean its not the most morale thing in the world, but he was jsut trying too help me so I cant really get on his case, you know?

Edit: Her and her husband (his step dad) had two bottles of 40 suboxos they dont even touch anymore. A couple of times the step dad even gave me 10 at a time. so it wasnt that bad dude.
 
Eight0Eight said:
Thats pure bullshit.

He let his own mum go without? What the fuck?
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Come on 8, everyone knows they Rx you way more than you actually need. Still going strong I assume/hope?

I've been off for weeks, maybe over a month but you know, I've been using. Right now I've had no opes for three days so I'm still ok.
 
Eight0Eight said:
Thats pure bullshit.

He let his own mum go without? What the fuck?
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OHH, that poor lady. LOL

I understand OS, at least they we're put to good use. :)
It's funny how hard it is to go to your doctor and tell them about a drug problem isn't it? I set up my own opiate teeter down program 4 months ago. Rather then tell anyone I had a problem.
I told the truth to my doctor for the first time in 9 years, two weeks ago. She sent me to a Sub doctor. My doctor was pretty cool about the whole thing.

That Sub doctor said I could take up to 2 8mgs tabs per day. But I should start with 4mgs. The Sub doctor also said based on my situation I would be on Sub for probably a minimum of 6 months, maybe even a year or more.
How does what this doctor said sound?

Thanks CH I'm going to try the alcohol trick to make taking them a little more pleasant.
I also have ativan which seems to help some.

Anything else that might help with w/d or even the craving part of it. I find talking you guys that are there or have been there really helpful. :)

Thanks
 
Betterdaze said:
Thanks CH I'm going to try the alcohol trick to make taking them a little more pleasant.
I also have ativan which seems to help some.

Anything else that might help with w/d or even the craving part of it. I find talking you guys that are there or have been there really helpful. :)

Thanks
Click to expand...

Finding the "sweet spot" of buprenorphine seems to help a lot. For me personally, until I tapered down a bit I wasn't getting the right effect out of buprenorphine. Then again, every individual is different. The idea is to get the ideal dose where you get the most nor-buprenorphine activating the mu-opioid receptors, meaning the bare minimum so that there's no extra buprenorphine to outcompete the receptors for it. If you're not held by such a dose (it is typically <2mg for most people) then you still get a good effect out of taking more, but not the same effect as the "sweet spot" which I find to be more euphoric. If you go higher, you get a longer effect, but I find it's less euphoric, and at the higher doses (which are too high for the said tolerance) then the buprenorphine antagonizes itself at the mu opioid receptor. It also has other effects which I will not list here (I cannot recall the details well enough..) but it tends to leave me feeling antagonized, agitated, etc.
 
Suboxone for Depression/Anxiety

Hi, I am currently taking suboxone for depression/anxiety disorder. I was wondering if there is anyone else who is taking this medication for this also. Love to hear from you!!!!! Larsy1566:)
 
I've only heard of very few cases where sub was used for anxiety. Did benzos not work for you? are you in the states?
 
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